Note to Conservatives:

[Stickle]

I think its safe to assume by this point in the thread that Rattler has a definite hate-on for the liberals.

This whole campaign, which is clearly underway thanks to the way the opposition brought forward their bill, will be the conservatives continually thumping the about adscam and the liberals trying to deflect it. Just once I would like to see a campaign run on what they "will" do for us but I seriously doubt that we will see that coming from the conservatives.

Living in Quebec, there really isn't that much play on the adscam thing. It has become a nonissue except for those that want to brand all liberals as thieves and cheats. If you had a pilot, AME, flight attendant show up for work over the legal limit, does that mean that they all do it. NO. But in the eyes of some here there is not one honest liberal in the bunch. We will probably see about the same results in Quebec as we have in the last couple of elections. Most of Montreal going liberal and the outlying areas going to the Bloc. This is much the same result as there is in the provincial elections here, no big surprise.

I personally do not trust Stephen Harper. The man can hardly look the cameras square in the face. He seems unconfident. He has too many loose canon's in his group. Not to say that the liberals don't but they seem to be able to deal with them.

I can honestly say I'm not particularly fussy on any of the leaders right now. I can say with great certainty though that my life is pretty good right now. Do I see any reason to change that, no!! Someone mentioned that it is time to send a signal to the liberals. I believe they got that in the last election. Do we know with certainty exactly what we'll be getting with a conservative government, no! I like my life the way it is and I will opt to stay with the status quo even though I may not like it entirely, it is better than dealing with the unknown.

[Tiho]

I think this sums up pretty much how we, in the centre of the Canadian universe and political abyss, feel. Does for me, anyway.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/rex_051116.html

[ccairspace]

Now there's an article that captures the true Spirit of Politics... in inimitable Rex Murphy style!

It's not the thought of a Christmas election that makes Canadians weary; if there was a hope that any election would change the tone of Canadian politics, offer something vaguely resembling real leadership, haul the country out of the slough of mediocrity and partisan fever, which is all our current politics offers, then I think Canadians would trudge in the snow with glee and delight to cast a ballot.

But an election now or in April, it's no difference. Another minority, four indifferent leaders, gamesmanship all around, vision in exile. No wonder they're afraid to pull the plug. It's not a choice being offered; it's a repetition. For The National, I'm Rex Murphy.

Right on.

ccairspace

[handyman]

You know why staunch Liberals are SCARED of the so called "hidden agenda"? ...because if there was one, I'm sure it would totally destroy the Liberal agenda.

[bm330]

For those who seem to enjoy casting the "war-monger" moniker around like some weary Vietnam flashback - Canada was never asked to invade Iraq. Canada's military has been decimated for so long the capacity to join an invasion force is farcical. All it was asked to do was to endorse the actions of our overwhelmingly most important trade partner and one of our longest standing Allies. The ill-will the snub created is in large part responsible for numerous issues between our countries. Two of the most visible are the softwood lumber and the mad-cow fiascos.

What goes around, comes around.

Time for a change.

[handyman]

For those who seem to enjoy casting the "war-monger" moniker around like some weary Vietnam flashback - Canada was never asked to invade Iraq. Canada's military has been decimated for so long the capacity to join an invasion force is farcical. All it was asked to do was to endorse the actions of our overwhelmingly most important trade partner and one of our longest standing Allies. The ill-will the snub created is in large part responsible for numerous issues between our countries. Two of the most visible are the softwood lumber and the mad-cow fiascos.

What goes around, comes around.

Time for a change.

thanks for that bm330, how quickly those facts appear to have been forgotten. I do remember the "snub" and how embarrassed and angry I was with HOW Canada turned down the USA request.

[CanadaEH]

For those who seem to enjoy casting the "war-monger" moniker around like some weary Vietnam flashback - Canada was never asked to invade Iraq. Canada's military has been decimated for so long the capacity to join an invasion force is farcical. All it was asked to do was to endorse the actions of our overwhelmingly most important trade partner and one of our longest standing Allies. The ill-will the snub created is in large part responsible for numerous issues between our countries. Two of the most visible are the softwood lumber and the mad-cow fiascos.

What goes around, comes around.

Time for a change.

...and we didn't endorse the war in Iraq and I'm proud of that. I don't normally wade into these political discussions but I completely disagree with the American's foreign policy. I don't follow politics much but what I do belive is that Harper would bend over backwards to Bush and his government to improve relations and as a Canadian I want no part of that. I believe someone in this forum said this a while back: I'd rather vote for the devil I know than vote for the devil I don't.

[Mitch Cronin]

Why vote for any flippin devils????? Show the bums what you think!

How much improvement in our government are we likely to see if the Liberals win another minority? Not flippin' much! How much do you think we'd see by the time the next election comes around if both the Liberals and Conservatives got a clear message this time round that Canadians are sick of lousy government?....

The Green Party folks.... The devils can go back to hell!

[Guest FA_AC]

For those who seem to enjoy casting the "war-monger" moniker around like some weary Vietnam flashback - Canada was never asked to invade Iraq. All it was asked to do was to endorse the actions of our overwhelmingly most important trade partner and one of our longest standing Allies. The ill-will the snub created is in large part responsible for numerous issues between our countries. Two of the most visible are the softwood lumber and the mad-cow fiascos.

What goes around, comes around.

Time for a change.

Here's a partial list of the actions you speak of that we were asked to endorse:

- Attempts to justify an immoral and unnecessary war by the trumping up and/or outright fabrication of evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction

- Trumping up and/or outright fabrication of evidence that Saddam was in cahoots with Al Quaida

- Unnecessary and wreckless rush to war before weapons inspectors had finished their work

- Needless slaughter of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians

- Needless deaths of coalition troops

- Spreading of the silly belief that US and coalition forces would greeted as heros and liberators by the overwhelming majority of Iraqis

- Probable provocation of civil war in Iraq

If it's your position that we ought to have gone along with the above in order to smooth the softwood lumber dispute over or to have avoided restrictions on the import of Canadian cattle to the USA, then you think differently than most of us do.

[mrlupin]

Liberals, Conservatives, NDP,

Who will you vote for?

I find it quite disturbing that the only party promotting it's policy is the Liberal party. If the Conservatives'only strategie is to bash the Liberals, Harper might as well pack his bags.

All I am hearing here in Québec, are adds bashing the Liberals.

Well why not prove your party superior by promoting it's platform? I would never vote for someone based on someone elses track record so why would anyone vote conservatives when on the media side,we aren't hearing anything about their party platform. The only thing we hear about the conservatives is bashing from the Liberals. We don't know where they really stand on so many issues, why vote for the mystery party?

Harper should be out there promotting his platform instead of bashing the Liberals. Give me a reason other then "the Liberals are corrupt" for voting Conservatives.

Now I know some of you will be jumping on this post to prove the Liberals are bad,the Liberals are corrupt,etc.Conservative party platform is available on their web site but the reality of it all is that if people have to go to the conservative's web site to get informed,they simply will not bother. They will believe any spin that is put forward by another party of better yet, they will believe the medias who always point to the radicals in the party (we can all remember the Asian Invasion comment can't we??)

So note to Conservatives, Get out there and promote your party platform instead of bashing the other parties!!!

Éric

[J.O.]

Very well said Eric. I challenge all parties to cease and desist with the attack ads and to put their focus on their intentions for the future governance of our country. If I don't see campaigning based on promotion of a platform, I will not vote for any party, I don't care who it is. Regardless of my feelings about adscam, I will not vote for any of the opposition parties unless I can see clearly where they will take our country. I'd rather spoil my ballot than cast a vote for a bunch of negative slag-masters.

[Guest rattler]

It's old hat Rattler. Those charges have been leveled against Martin before. Why should his former company have to keep their ships here and pay through the nose, when other shippers fly flags from places like Liberia.. It's just big business at work.

Also pretty desperate when you have to turn to the Bloc to build your case.

Nothing desperate there, just relating something that I had forgotten. Talking about desperate...... I would equate the Liberal & NDP deals to be that.

By the by, I don't hate the Liberals. I helped many to get elected over the years but I can honestly say that I now don't trust the present bunch and until their house is cleaned, they have lost my vote. On that basis I am more than happy to give the "New Conservative party", not the same bunch that was in power 11 years ago, a chance.

[handyman]

Nothing desperate there, just relating something that I had forgotten. Talking about desperate...... I would equate the Liberal & NDP deals to be that.

By the by, I don't hate the Liberals. I helped many to get elected over the years but I can honestly say that I now don't trust the present bunch and until their house is cleaned, they have lost my vote. On that basis I am more than happy to give the "New Conservative party", not the same bunch that was in power 11 years ago, a chance.

Oh but what about the hidden agenda and the corruption of the past? Yada, yada, yada as I ignore everything you wrote.

Sorry, I was just trying to save FA_AC some keyboard time!

[Guest FA_AC]

FA_AC hasn't ever accused the Conservatives of having a hidden agenda. The stuff that some of their candidates say publicly is enough to turn me off. The writ hasn't even been dropped yet, but Harper is at it already.....he was giving tongue yesterday about alleged Liberal links to organised crime. That'll get ya elected, Stephen!

[Guest rattler]

One good thing about living in Canada. We can discuss our government without fear of reprisal. I have even seen Conservatives and Liberals sit down over a brew (anything is possible in YOW).

[GDR]

> The following two articles are very interesting. The first is a story in

> the New York Daily News from Nov 18/04 and the second is Andrew Coyne's

> column in the National Post of May 14/05. You can make up your own mind

> about what is going on.

>

>

> New York Daily News -

>

> Stoolie: Canada pol in mob

> BY GREG B. SMITH

> DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

> Thursday, November 18th, 2004

>

> Alfonso Gagliano has held titles in Canada that include labor

> minister, deputy House leader, ambassador to Denmark and minister of

> public works.

>

> In New York he held a different kind of title, according to secret

> FBI documents obtained by the Daily News: "made" member of the Bonanno

> crime family.

>

> Gagliano was identified as a longtime soldier in the Bonanno crime

> family by Frank Lino, a former Mafia capo-turned-informer.

>

> Lino is now cooperating with the FBI and federal prosecutors as they

> slowly take apart the mob family to which he once swore allegiance.

>

> Gagliano's name surfaced as Lino described the Bonanno family's

> operations in Montreal, which has served as an outpost for the

> Brooklyn-based group for decades.

>

> He said he and a group of top Bonanno gangsters traveled to Montreal

> in the 1990s to let the northern branch office know the family had a new

> boss, Joseph Massino.

>

> The group met at a catering hall, and during the meeting, a Bonanno

> gangster, Joseph Lopresti, introduced Gagliano to Lino as a made man in

> the family, FBI documents state.

>

> Lino made a point of telling the FBI that only actual members of the

> Bonanno family were allowed to attend the meeting at the catering hall.

> Associates were banned.

>

> Gagliano attorney Pierre Fournier did not return calls seeking

> comment yesterday.

>

> For years, Gagliano was a fixture in Canada's national politics,

> rising through the ranks of the Liberal Party.

>

> But his most powerful position was undoubtedly Canada's minister of

> public works and government services, the office that oversees the

> Canadian mint and awards most of Canada's government contracts.

>

> In that capacity, Gagliano found himself embroiled in a growing

> scandal over potential corruption in the awarding of contracts for

> government advertising.

>

> In February, he was dismissed as ambassador.

>

> There is an ongoing investigation into allegations that government

> funds were funneled to large contributors to the Liberal Party for no-work

> contracts.

>

> Lino was shown an array of photographs and identified Gagliano, the

> FBI documents state.

>

> When he began cooperating with the FBI, Lino admitted he was involved

> in six murders, several attempted murders, loansharking, extortion and

> gambling.

>

>

>

> The real Adscam mystery

>

>

> Andrew Coyne

>

> National Post

>

>

>

> Saturday, May 14, 2005

>

> Where did they get the cash? Not the money -- we know where they got that.

> They got it from us: millions and millions and millions of dollars of

> public funds, awarded in secret, without tenders, invoices or

> documentation of any kind, to a clutch of well-connected firms that did no

> work in return except to funnel a percentage of it back to the ruling

> party, by a combination of donations (legal) and kickbacks (illegal), or

> by employing Liberal "volunteers" to do party work. The total amount of

> public money siphoned off into Liberal coffers by such means (illegal

> means, that is, rather than the legalized plunder that is the recent

> campaign finance "reform") may never be known, but it is certainly in the

> millions.

>

> That much is known. But we enter uncharted waters as we learn how this

> pelf was distributed: in cash. At first it was just a colourful footnote:

> $5,000 left on a restaurant table here, $10,000 stuffed in an envelope

> there, while talking of the Choo Choo Man and White Head. But as the days

> pass and the testimony progressed, we learned that these were not isolated

> transactions by fringe characters: Cash was, it seems, the preferred

> medium of exchange of the Liberal Party of Canada, including senior

> members of the party hierarchy. Two former executive directors of the

> Liberals' Quebec wing have now testified to having given or received great

> big wads of cash, in amounts that stagger the imagination: not just

> envelopes but suitcases full, as much as $200,000 at one go. Hundreds and

> hundreds of thousands of dollars were allegedly distributed in this way,

> to dozens of people -- that we know about.

>

> We know why they did this: to escape detection. What's not clear is how.

> Where does anyone get their hands on $200,000 in cash? You can't just walk

> into a bank and cash a cheque for 200-grand, in small bills please,

> unmarked, and be sure to scramble the serial numbers, won't you? Even if

> you make a lot of little withdrawals, there are bound to be questions

> asked. There are laws about these things. To scrape together that kind of

> cash without attracting attention, you have to draw from a large number of

> separate and unrelated sources, and do so in a way that does not leave a

> paper trail of its own. Or you have to know the kind of people who can do

> that for you.

>

> As shady as they seem to be, I somehow doubt that even Liberal party

> executives possess those kinds of skills. The picture of Marc-Yvan Cote --

> a former provincial cabinet minister -- nervously spending the night with

> a suitcase stuffed with hundred-dollar bills before handing them out to

> candidates at a campaign rally in Jean Chretien's riding is more comic

> than sinister. Likewise, I doubt Jacques Corriveau, cultured man that he

> is, would have been taught at the choir recitals and art openings he

> frequents how to convert the millions he received in federal contracts

> into the massive sums of cash he is alleged to have distributed. So I can

> only conclude that they outsourced the job. But to whom? Who has that sort

> of expertise? Who does business that way?

>

> But enough of that. Here's another, entirely unrelated question: Why was

> Daniel Dezainde so deathly afraid of Joe Morselli? Mr. Dezainde is the

> former head of the Liberal Party in Quebec who testified he was told Mr.

> Morselli, to whom he was introduced shortly after taking the job, was "the

> real boss" of the party, and that whatever he did, he should not cross

> him. Sometime later, having had the temerity to do just that, he found out

> why: Though the precise wording of Mr. Morselli's alleged threat -- "I

> declare war on you" -- is susceptible to various interpretations, the

> meaning Mr. Dezainde took from it was enough to persuade him to go over

> his life insurance, phone friends advising them what to do "if anything

> happens to me" -- and to seek RCMP protection before he gave evidence.

> Just the memory of it, years after the fact, was enough to make him break

> down on the witness stand. I have it on good authority that Mr. Dezainde,

> a veteran of Liberal politics, is not a man of faint constitution.

>

> Yet Mr. Morselli, an unimposing man who is, at a guess, in his sixties,

> would seem to present a less-than-threatening figure. How did Mr. Dezainde

> imagine he could threaten his life? Why did he make jokes with a co-worker

> about who should be the first to start their car? It can't have had

> anything to do with that incident in 1989 when Mr. Morselli's car exploded

> in his Montreal driveway. After all, Mr. Morselli was the intended target

> of that attack, not the assailant. Could have happened to anybody.

>

> But enough of that. Here's another, entirely unrelated question: Did

> anyone ever follow up on this story, of which I was lately reminded, from

> the Ottawa Citizen of September 8, 2000:

>

> "Organized crime mobs are targeting Parliament and other Canadian

> institutions in an attempt to spread corruption and political instability,

> says the new head of the RCMP.

>

> During a remarkably candid news conference, Commissioner Giuliano

> Zaccardelli said yesterday that criminal groups are focusing on

> Parliament, the courts and other institutions with the aim of

> 'destabilizing' the political system ..."

>

> © National Post 2005

>

>

>

>

[Kip Powick]

We can discuss our government without fear of reprisal

Reprisals??? Won't happen to all you "anonymouse" authors but MITCH , J.O. and I, just to name a few, have to be very c-a-r-e-f-u-l what we post....but then again I 'm sure you have noticed that.

[handyman]

We can discuss our government without fear of reprisal

Reprisals??? Won't happen to all you "anonymouse" authors but MITCH , J.O. and I, just to name a few, have to be very c-a-r-e-f-u-l what we post....but then again I 'm sure you have noticed that.

Yes, you may be accused of being a Liberal!

[Guest rattler]

NOVEMBER 26, 2005 - 05:59 ET

LIBERALS HOLD SLIM LEAD ON EVE OF ELECTION CALL...

AS CANADIANS WARM TO IDEA OF POTENTIAL HARPER MINORITY

Attention: News Editor

TORONTO, ON--(CCNMatthews - Nov. 26, 2005) - According to the latest Ipsos Reid poll conducted for CanWest News Service/Global News, the governing Liberal Party, with 34% of voter support (-2 points from a poll conducted last week), holds a slim lead over their chief rivals, the Conservatives (30%, +3 points). Meanwhile, the NDP at 16% (unchanged) and the Green Party (5%, -1 point) hold steady. And in Quebec, the Bloc Quebecois is up 9 points and now hold 59% of federal votes in this province versus 23% for the federal Liberals (-5 points).

And while the horse-race in vote support between the two leading parties is tight heading into next week's expected election call, it would appear that the Liberals may become more vulnerable to defeat as Canadians seem to be warming to the idea of a Conservative minority government: Forty-two percent of Canadians (up 3 points from 39% last week) agree with the statement that "I'd be comfortable voting for Stephen Harper and the Conservatives to form the government in the next election because we'll probably have another minority government which will keep them in check".

Further, six in ten (62%, essentially unchanged from 58% a month ago) continue to feel that the Liberal Party does not deserve to be re-elected and it's time for another Federal political party to be given a chance to govern the country.

When it comes to Party Momentum:

* Momentum for Paul Martin and the Liberal Party, while still strongly negative (-38 points), has improved 6 points;

* Stephen Harper and the Conservatives maintain slightly negative (-8 points) momentum - unchanged from earlier this month;

* Momentum for Jack Layton and the NDP is now negative (-7 points) down 11 points;

* Momentum for Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Quebecois is very strongly positive (+34 points) - up 25 points from the last survey.

These are the findings of an Ipsos Reid poll conducted for CanWest News Service/Global News and fielded from November 22nd to November 24th 2005. For the survey, a representative randomly selected sample of 1000 adult Canadians were interviewed by telephone. With a sample of this size, the aggregate results are considered accurate to within ±3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, of what they would have been had the entire adult Canadian population been polled. The margin of error will be larger within each sub-grouping of the survey population. These data were weighted to ensure the sample's regional and age/sex composition reflects that of the actual Canadian population according to the 2001 Census data.

Liberals (34%, -2 Points) Have Marginal Lead Over Conservatives (30%, +3 Points)…

If a federal election were held tomorrow, 34% of decided voters would cast their ballot for the federal Liberals (-2 points from a November 15th poll), 30% would vote Conservative (+3 points), 16% would vote NDP (unchanged), and 5% would vote for the Green Party (-1 point).

In Quebec, the Bloc Quebecois is up 9 points to 59% versus 23% support for the federal Liberals (-5 points).

Among all Canadians, 9% are undecided, refused to say whom they would vote for, or don't know.

Regional Highlights:

* The Bloc Quebecois is up 9 points in Quebec to 59% versus 23% support for the federal Liberals (-5 points).

* The Liberal Party is down sharply in British Columbia (26%, -18 points) while the Conservatives (33%, +14 points) have moved in to fill this vacuum.

* The Conservatives have made strong gains in Saskatchewan/Manitoba (46%, +16 points).

Fortables please refer to report.

Six In Ten (62%) Feel It's Time For A Change In Federal Government…

Six in ten Canadians (62%, essentially unchanged from 58% a month ago) feel that the Liberal Party does not deserve to be re-elected and it's time for another federal political party to be given a chance to govern the country. Thirty-three percent, however, say that the Liberal Party deserves to be re-elected under the leadership of Paul Martin.

There are no notable demographic or attitudinal variances with respect to this question.

Forty-Two Percent (Up 3 Points) Feel Comfortable Voting For Conservatives Because Minority Government Will Keep Them In Check…

Forty-two percent of Canadians (up from 39% last week) agree with the statement that "I'd be comfortable voting for Stephen Harper and the Conservatives to form the government in the next election because we'll probably have another minority which will keep them in check" (12% strongly agree). Half (53%) of Canadians disagree with this statement (33% strongly disagree), and five percent say they "don't know".

* Agreement with this statement has risen most sharply in British Columbia (41%, +11 points) and Atlantic Canada (43%, +11 points), and is up notably in Ontario (45%, +6 points).

Party and Party Leader Momentum…

As part of the survey, Ipsos-Reid asked Canadians whether their opinions of the various major parties and their leaders has improved, stayed the same, or worsened over the last few weeks. The results from this question were used to track changes in "momentum" from previous national surveys.

Momentum For Paul Martin And The Liberal Party, While Still Strongly Negative (-38 Points), Has Improved 6 Points…

When Canadians are asked whether their impression of Paul Martin and the Liberal has improved or worsened over the last few weeks:

* 15% say their impression has improved;

* 53% say their impression has worsened; and

* 27% say their impression has stayed the same.

Five percent of Canadians "don't know".

Paul Martin and the Liberals have a strongly negative momentum score (-38 points), but their score has improved 6 points from -44 points earlier this month.

The Liberal party and their leader have made the biggest momentum gains in Alberta and Saskatchewan/Manitoba (both +14 points), and have made some headway in Ontario (+7 points).

Stephen Harper And The Conservatives Maintain Slightly Negative (-8 Points) Momentum - Unchanged From Earlier This Month…

When Canadians are asked whether their impression of Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party has improved or worsened over the last few weeks:

* 24% say their impression has improved;

* 32% say their impression has worsened; and

* 34% say their impression has stayed the same.

Ten percent of Canadians "don't know".

Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have a slightly negative momentum score (-8 points), which is unchanged from earlier this month.

Momentum for Stephen Harper and the Conservative party is up strongly in Alberta (+12 points), British Columbia (+11 points) and Atlantic Canada (+11 points). But, momentum is down sharply in Saskatchewan/Manitoba (-23 points).

Momentum For Jack Layton And The NDP Is Now Negative (-7 Points) Down 11 Points…

When Canadians are asked whether their impression of Jack Layton and the NDP has improved or worsened over the last few weeks:

* 23% say their impression has improved;

* 30% say their impression has worsened; and

* 37% say their impression has stayed the same.

Ten percent of Canadians "don't know".

Jack Layton and the NDP have a slightly negative momentum score (-7 points), which is down 11 points from earlier this month.

Momentum for the NDP and their leader is down most sharply in Saskatchewan/Manitoba (-31 points), and has also gone down in Ontario (-12 points), Quebec (-10 points) and Alberta (-9 points). Among NDP supporters, momentum has slid down 12 points.

Momentum For Gilles Duceppe And The Bloc Quebecois Very Strongly Positive (+34 Points) - Up 25 Points From The Last Survey…

When residents of Quebec are asked whether their impression of Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Quebecois has improved or worsened over the last few weeks:

* 48% say their impression has improved;

* 14% say their impression has worsened; and

* 31% say their impression has stayed the same.

Eight percent "don't know".

Overall, Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Quebecois have a very strong positive momentum score (+34 points), and are up 25 points from the last survey.

The Bloc have made particularly strong gains among Conservative Party supporters (+61 points)

When asked to consider the Liberal Government's recent announcements ranging from the purchase of new planes for our military to special relief to the softwood lumber industry to money for training new immigrants when they come to Canada, a majority of Canadians (67%) indicated they felt the government doesn't really care about solving things and that this is a cynical way to win votes with a looming potential election. But, a good portion (27%) feel they have been working hard for years on these matters and truly believe that these are vital issues that need to be addressed regardless of a looming potential election.

* Residents of Alberta (82%) and Quebec (76%) are the most likely to view these announcements as cynical attempt to win votes.

* Residents of Saskatchewan/Manitoba (35%), Ontario (33%) and British Columbia (29%) are the most likely to view this as something the government wanted to address regardless of a looming potential election.

-30-

For more information on this news release, please contact:

Dr. Darrell Bricker

President & COO

Ipsos-Reid Public Affairs

(416) 324-2900

[handyman]

> The following two articles are very interesting. The first is a story in

> the New York Daily News from Nov 18/04 and the second is Andrew Coyne's

> column in the National Post of May 14/05. You can make up your own mind

> about what is going on.

GDR,

I have seen those articles before but thanks for posting them here.

I would like to know if the stanch Liberal supporters have any comments about them. Or do they prefer to ignore or disbelieve them to lessen the conflict of logic they must be struggling with.

Any comments FA_AC?

[CD]

I have seen those articles before but thanks for posting them here. 

I would like to know if the stanch Liberal supporters have any comments about them.  Or do they prefer to ignore or disbelieve them to lessen the conflict of logic they must be struggling with.

Alternatively, why should we give more credence to media articles about politics than we would media articles about aviation? We all know that they can't get the aviation stories correct...

[Guest FA_AC]

GDR,

I have seen those articles before but thanks for posting them here.

I would like to know if the stanch Liberal supporters have any comments about them. Or do they prefer to ignore or disbelieve them to lessen the conflict of logic they must be struggling with.

Any comments FA_AC?

First of all, I'm not a staunch Liberal supporter. I think that Paul Martin was an excellent Finance Minister, but I'm not all that impressed with him as PM and I'm even less impressed with him after this week's transparent attempt to buy votes by doffing money out all over the place. It's revolting. So much for his reputation for fiscal prudence. Nonetheless, and while I don't believe that the Liberals deserve to hold a majority government, I prefer to see them in power than to have the Conservatives run the country.

The Conservatives have a number of MPs of whom I think highly, but there are still far too many wierdos in the party. It isn't as if the Liberals don't have some, too, but the Liberals tend to shove theirs to the back benches. Heddy Fry was shunted out of Cabinet, Parrish was ousted alltogether, etc. A Federal Cabinet with the likes of Rahim Jaffer in it isn't exactly our best hope for integrity in government. Neither are the Grewals nor a number of the people that Harper would put in senior position if he won the election. Harper himself gives too many people the creeps. He has practically made a career of badmouthing the country of which he supposedly wants to be PM. In media interviews he has described Canada as a "3rd rate socialistic country" or something to that effect. He went on CNN and claimed to speak for a majority of Canadians who were of the view that Canada ought to have supported his hero Bush's Iraq war. One would think that to have a decent grasp of our country's constitution would be one of the most basic requirements for someone who'd be PM, but Harper's position on the constitution where it concerns gay marriage is dishonest. The Liberals, I acknowledge, have made a dog's breakfast of the Quebec affair, but Harper's desire for a "Firewall around Alberta" or however he put it isn't exactly a recipe for national unity either.

We all know that Gagliano is a dirtbag. I'm glad he's gone, but I don't know enough to comment on the article that alleges that he's a mafia type. I would only say that it seems to me that if there was anything to the story, it would surely have been reported far more widely than it was.

You keep expressing wonder that anyone would consider voting Liberal after what a few Liberals did 6-10 years ago. I can't get past the fact that the party that would have had us at war in Iraq and that is so heavily populated with fruitloops isn't an attractive alternative. As another poster here said, life in Canada has been good for a long time, and I don't see much reason to upset the apple cart--particularly since the opposition's entire platform is the sponsorship scandal. We have already had an election on that, and the Liberals--deservedly--were reduced to a minority. Harper and his gang need to find something else to talk about if they want to pick seats up this time. Having hissyfits and flinging wild accusations about ties to organised crime won't do it. Remember the "Paul Martin supports child porn" press release?

[CD]

In media interviews he has described Canada as a "3rd rate socialistic country" or something to that effect.

Actually, it was apparently that, "Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status."

Toronto Star: Nov. 26, 2005. 11:38 AM

But then, I already mentioned what I think of media accuracy... Heck, they probably picked it up from this site...

[Fido]

...Harper's desire for a "Firewall around Alberta" or however he put it isn't exactly a recipe for national unity either.

...

You do not appear to know what was said in the context of this 'quote'.

With most of your accusations you make the same slurs of inflamatory statements and misinformation.

[Guest rattler]

Here is the complete article re the Firewall. Comment in RED is my comment. I have also added some bolding....

Klein advised to protect Alberta from Ottawa

Last Updated Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:32:45

CALGARY - A former Reform Party MP, Stephen Harper, has joined a group of Albertans who want the province to radically change its relationship with Ottawa.

Harper, who now heads the National Citizens' Coalition, thinks Alberta should protect itself from the federal government before the country slides into a recession.

He and five other political activists and academics have sent a letter to Conservative Premier Ralph Klein, outlining their recommendations.

They recommend Alberta:

Withdraw from the Canada Pension Plan, and set up a cheaper program that can offer the same benefits. (Quebec has this-not sure if their plan is cheaper however )

Replace the RCMP with a provincial police force, similar to what Quebec and Ontario already have.

Collect its own income tax

Take complete control of medicare, even if Ottawa threatens to withdraw funding because of violations of the Canada Health Act (

"As economic slowdown, and perhaps even recession, threatens North America, the government in Ottawa will be tempted to take advantage of Alberta's prosperity, to redistribute income from Alberta to residents of other provinces in order to keep itself in power," according to the letter.

"It's imperative to take the initiative, to build firewalls around Alberta, to limit the extent to which an aggressive and hostile federal government can encroach upon legitimate provincial jurisdiction."

The recommendations were written by Harper, Andy Crooks, chairman of the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, Ken Boessenkool, former senior adviser to Alberta's treasurer, as well as Tom Flanagan, Ted Morton, and Rainer Knopff, who all teach at the University of Calgary.

Klein is expected to call an election within the next few months, and some people in the province are lobbying to push Alberta into adopting a tougher stance when dealing with Ottawa.

Earlier this month some separatists formed a new political party in Alberta, insisting the federal government give the province more autonomy.

On Friday, the premier's office said that Klein is out of the country and hasn't seen the letter yet.