The Crickets Are Chirping

[J.O.]

[Kip Powick]

I was wondering the same thing Jeff !!!

Good choice of music, I have all their albums on a couple of my Nano iPods !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pl9dc5FhFYU

[J.O.]

They have a new album coming out on Nov 10th. It's mostly instrumental and much of the material was recorded on Gilmour's house boat / studio when they recorded The Division Bell. There are some previews on YouTube.

[Seeker]

What we need to do is start some really inflammatory thread - something to do with religion or politics - to get more posting. Either that or something that people can get their teeth into. I know...here's one:

[deicer]

What we need to do is start some really inflammatory thread - something to do with religion or politics - to get more posting. Either that or something that people can get their teeth into. I know...here's one:- Seeker

Or maybe start the discussion about revised pass priorities maybe?

[acsidestick]

Are you in favour, or against?

[Seeker]

Or maybe start the discussion about revised pass priorities maybe?

[deicer]

Are you in favour, or against? - acsidestick

Like the majority, I stand against

[Mitch Cronin]

Personally I think all pass privileges should be revoked, first from the entire executive and chief bottle washer crowd.... then from everyone else.... followed shortly thereafter by banning all flying at all.

Except for emergency use, and training, all air travel everywhere should be immediately suspended, pending the development of clean propulsion systems.

[boestar]

what changes

[conehead]

Rumour has it that with the new contract, pilots will recieve travel passes that put them ahead of all other employees. And believe me, those other employees will be VERY unhappy if that type of change is implemented to the travel pass policy.

[Seeker]

Rumour has it that with the new contract, pilots will recieve travel passes that put them ahead of all other employees. And believe me, those other employees will be VERY unhappy if that type of change is implemented to the travel pass policy.

You mean kind of like when brand new managers hired off the street get B1 passes ahead of all other employees? Or maybe you mean when only the FAs got C1 passes as a reward for Air Canada winning best airline in North America? Maybe you are referring to Chorus employees using a travel date ahead of Air Canada employees? There are many precedents for using pass priority as benefit to be manipulated.

[GDR]

Back to the original post. If you want to hear the original crickets chirping here they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqxD3kxMGQg

[DEFCON]

Seeker

“Maybe you are referring to Chorus employees using a travel date ahead of Air Canada employees?”

Hasn’t this particular issue been hashed out here before; the senior AC employee enjoys a similar advantage when flying on Jazz?

[conehead]

You mean kind of like when brand new managers hired off the street get B1 passes ahead of all other employees? Or maybe you mean when only the FAs got C1 passes as a reward for Air Canada winning best airline in North America? Maybe you are referring to Chorus employees using a travel date ahead of Air Canada employees? There are many precedents for using pass priority as benefit to be manipulated.

Seeker; the reason I started my post with "rumour has it" is that to me, it is only rumour at this stage. I have no knowledge of any details, only chatter on the ramp. Myself, I feel that passes for personal travel should be equal for all employees, regardless of belonging to any particular employee or management group. The only factor should be seniority date. That's just my opinion...

[Seeker]

Seeker

“Maybe you are referring to Chorus employees using a travel date ahead of Air Canada employees?”

Hasn’t this particular issue been hashed out here before; the senior AC employee enjoys a similar advantage when flying on Jazz?

Well, that's my point - passes, dates, priorities - none of them are consistent.

[Seeker]

Myself, I feel that passes for personal travel should be equal for all employees, regardless of belonging to any particular employee or management group. The only factor should be seniority date. That's just my opinion...

Sure, sounds good, except as I replied to DEFCON, the system is already rife with inconsistencies.

[boestar]

Well, that's my point - passes, dates, priorities - none of them are consistent.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the Chorus Comment. My pass privileges are based on my seniority date with the airline. No different than that of a mainline employee. Whether I fly on a Jazz aircraft or on a mainline aircraft I fly on a C2 priority based on my seniority. This has been consistent from day 1. As a Manager I do not get any special priority when travelling on Passes.

[acsidestick]

Seeker, Only some of these B pass holders are management, many are not. They are non unionized AC employees who were given the higher priority in exchange for a pay raise 2 years ago.

Boestar, your C2 may be based on your date of hire, but two years ago Jazz/Chorus was reverted to a C4 priority. However, there was a grandfathering C2 date which split two different Jazz hiring months (Feb/Mar 2006 ? Maybe - someone else will have the correct date) right down the middle. One group a C2, and the next group a C4. This was trying to nicely resolve a problem Milton created when he awarded Jazz C2 priority in the early 2000s. Before that, the regionals were C4 on AC, and C2 on themselves. Keep in mind, in those days, they and AC sold seats on each other, splitting fares and risk(no CPA model). When they were 100% AC owned, they became C2s. They are now 00.0% owned, and are now strictly contracted charter (100% CPA Charter). They are in no way AC employees ( although many dispute that when friends ask them who they work for, I sat down in my barbers chair a while back and he, knowing who I was, said that the guy in the next chair says he's an AC pilot as well, I asked which equipment and was sheepishly told the dash 8)

Why would someone who doesn't work for AC expect to get on an AC aircraft ahead of actual AC employees?

To take this one step further, and I realize this will cause discussion, because 100% of the Chorus seats are purchased by AC, the only seat on the a/c they haven't purchased is the jumpseat. It clearly could be argued that Jazz doesn't have any seats which aren't owned by Air Canada, and therefore AC employees should be getting on those flights ahead of Jazz as well.

If I charter Kenn Borek to take a King Air to Inuvik, and there are 12 seats available, imagine what would happen if I showed up with 8 of my customers, and 4 of my own employees and was told that they were bumping my 4 employees to get 4 Borek employees to Inuvik, and having me pay for their trip.

This is the exact same relationship currently existing between Jazz and AC. AC does not own Jazz, they fully charter every seat, and therefore, what those seats are used for are up to AC, not Jazz.

When AC Jets gets charted by U2, the Rolling Stones, The Flames etc, no AC employees walk up to the AC and says "sorry Mick but we're coming too". As they have purchased the whole aircraft, the band or team decide who is riding and who is not (and by the way, there is no possibility of any AC employee riding along).

You say you have been C2 since day 1 which means you were hired after the Regionals were bumped up to C2, in around 2003, but before the reversion to C4 date mentioned above. I mention this because it brings up the third Jazz/Chorus anomaly which has created hardships for some at the mainline.

Nearly 1000 pilot left the Regionals to join AC. Part of that agreement was that when they arrived at their new Company, they would be given a new date of hire C2 travel date, even though they had been at the connectors for many years. (Keep in mind, at the connectors, they had been a C4 when travelling on AC). This seemed fair enough at the time, as they were "new" to the Company.

When Milton awarded the Connectors C2 passes, those who didn't leave the Connectors were now very senior for travel over those who they used to be very junior to. This was a hard pill to swallow, made only worse by the integration of Canadian Regional with Air Canada during the Takeover. Canadian Regional was allowed to keep their date of original hire at CR while the Jazz pilots were not, meaning that two pilots hired on the same day, one at Air BC, and one at Time Air, now were 10 years apart in travel pass seniority, even though the CR pilot had never worked 1 day on behalf of AC, and had in fact been working AGAINST AC, while the Connector pilot had been working for a 100% owned AC company, just like Aeroplane etc. They had then been working actually AT AC mainline for several years, and now found themselves junior to the new guy. Making matters even worse, was that the CR pilots were given a new AC seniority number based on integration date. This has led to a situation which still currently exists where a pilot many hundreds of numbers junior to another pilot has pass travel dates ahead of the senior pilot, and gets boarded before him/her.

It all gets a bit muddy, doesn't it. Freaking Milton.

[DEFCON]

"I asked which equipment and was sheepishly told the dash 8)"

It's not really Milton's fault acss; it's the pilots themselves. Although I can agree with everything you've said above, your comments make it obvious that you've been around AC long enough to be aware there are two sides to your justifications.

Milton was the smart guy, he used the arrogance & greed inherent to pilots against them to achieve his own objectives, and he did it all quite successfully. When it comes to the notion of restricting Jazz employees to C4 on their own carrier and below all of AC, I am compelled to ask; what will the cast system you describe cost to push forward?

[acsidestick]

DEFCON

I agree completely.

I'm just stating what happened, and why, and a logical extension of current policy.

I don't think Pen Strokes should affect different groups so differently.

For instance, AVEOS, and Aeroplan were handled differently than Jazz/Chorus. All were AC employees at one time.

[Seeker]

Seeker, Only some of these B pass holders are management, many are not. They are non unionized AC employees who were given the higher priority in exchange for a pay raise 2 years ago.

Boestar, your C2 may be based on your date of hire, but two years ago Jazz/Chorus was reverted to a C4 priority. However, there was a grandfathering C2 date which split two different Jazz hiring months (Feb/Mar 2006 ? Maybe - someone else will have the correct date) right down the middle. One group a C2, and the next group a C4. This was trying to nicely resolve a problem Milton created when he awarded Jazz C2 priority in the early 2000s. Before that, the regionals were C4 on AC, and C2 on themselves. Keep in mind, in those days, they and AC sold seats on each other, splitting fares and risk(no CPA model). When they were 100% AC owned, they became C2s. They are now 00.0% owned, and are now strictly contracted charter (100% CPA Charter). They are in no way AC employees ( although many dispute that when friends ask them who they work for, I sat down in my barbers chair a while back and he, knowing who I was, said that the guy in the next chair says he's an AC pilot as well, I asked which equipment and was sheepishly told the dash 8)

Why would someone who doesn't work for AC expect to get on an AC aircraft ahead of actual AC employees?

To take this one step further, and I realize this will cause discussion, because 100% of the Chorus seats are purchased by AC, the only seat on the a/c they haven't purchased is the jumpseat. It clearly could be argued that Jazz doesn't have any seats which aren't owned by Air Canada, and therefore AC employees should be getting on those flights ahead of Jazz as well.

If I charter Kenn Borek to take a King Air to Inuvik, and there are 12 seats available, imagine what would happen if I showed up with 8 of my customers, and 4 of my own employees and was told that they were bumping my 4 employees to get 4 Borek employees to Inuvik, and having me pay for their trip.

This is the exact same relationship currently existing between Jazz and AC. AC does not own Jazz, they fully charter every seat, and therefore, what those seats are used for are up to AC, not Jazz.

When AC Jets gets charted by U2, the Rolling Stones, The Flames etc, no AC employees walk up to the AC and says "sorry Mick but we're coming too". As they have purchased the whole aircraft, the band or team decide who is riding and who is not (and by the way, there is no possibility of any AC employee riding along).

You say you have been C2 since day 1 which means you were hired after the Regionals were bumped up to C2, in around 2003, but before the reversion to C4 date mentioned above. I mention this because it brings up the third Jazz/Chorus anomaly which has created hardships for some at the mainline.

Nearly 1000 pilot left the Regionals to join AC. Part of that agreement was that when they arrived at their new Company, they would be given a new date of hire C2 travel date, even though they had been at the connectors for many years. (Keep in mind, at the connectors, they had been a C4 when travelling on AC). This seemed fair enough at the time, as they were "new" to the Company.

When Milton awarded the Connectors C2 passes, those who didn't leave the Connectors were now very senior for travel over those who they used to be very junior to. This was a hard pill to swallow, made only worse by the integration of Canadian Regional with Air Canada during the Takeover. Canadian Regional was allowed to keep their date of original hire at CR while the Jazz pilots were not, meaning that two pilots hired on the same day, one at Air BC, and one at Time Air, now were 10 years apart in travel pass seniority, even though the CR pilot had never worked 1 day on behalf of AC, and had in fact been working AGAINST AC, while the Connector pilot had been working for a 100% owned AC company, just like Aeroplane etc. They had then been working actually AT AC mainline for several years, and now found themselves junior to the new guy. Making matters even worse, was that the CR pilots were given a new AC seniority number based on integration date. This has led to a situation which still currently exists where a pilot many hundreds of numbers junior to another pilot has pass travel dates ahead of the senior pilot, and gets boarded before him/her.

It all gets a bit muddy, doesn't it. Freaking Milton.

Thanks acsidestick;

I was going to say most of this but didn't want to be the guy taking the heat for saying it!

[boestar]

There is another way of looking at it as always. Even though AC "owns" all of the Jazz seats, without the Jazz employees there are no seats to "Own" It is a mutually beneficial relationship. Symbiotic if you will. You cant have one without the other and they need each other to survive. (I am sure that will stem some debate).

So a Jazz employee who works to ensure that those seats are available to be flown, under your interpretation, is not deserving of taking the opportunity to utilize one that is empty for travel. I personally see that as a pretty selfish attitude. Jazz employees work hard to ensure AC has those seats ready to go and they work hard to ensure that the aircraft those seats are on are the safest in the air. Jazz performance is among the best of all of the regional carriers in North America because of the employees. I dont think that benefit should be stripped from the people that make that happen.

[Guest]

They are in no way AC employees ( although many dispute that when friends ask them who they work for, I sat down in my barbers chair a while back and he, knowing who I was, said that the guy in the next chair says he's an AC pilot as well, I asked which equipment and was sheepishly told the dash 8)

acsidestick- just wanted to take the opportunity on this non-topic thread to say something a bit off topic (because I do get why your put this line in your post).

I would challenge you on the word "many", however I will only speak for myself. I always take the opportunity to make it clear that I fly for Jazz Aviation, and am in no way employed by Air Canada. And yes my barber also cuts AC pilots' hair- he has been sure to tell me that in the past.

CH

(A lowly Dash driver at that;)

PS- had a commuting AC pilot a couple of months ago try to convince the gate agent in YYZ (right in front of me) that he trumped me for the JS on one of our (Jazz) aircraft because he was senior (and obviously assumed I was naive). It was incredibly arrogant considering he's a commuter and knows the rules. They both conceded when I finally told them that "I teach the stuff- if you want I can pull out the PowerPoint for the flight deck admission module..." Speaking of the crickets chirping....