Air Canada pilot strike vote open.

[UpperDeck]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

 

Recovering from concessions is not an increase. If your hourly rate dropped by 50% one day.  Then your employer gave you 100% raise to get back to even.  Is that a raise or increase?

The Unionist asks the Capitalist.

We have been very clear from the beginning.  We recover our concessions over the last two decades, or we strike

The company has known our position for over a year.

If that means we get forced to strike to get our concessions back? Unfortunate but so be it.

We are prepared if that were to happen

Turbo.....who is this "we" of whom you speak? As a "unionist", I assume you are speaking of the collective.

The reality is that well more than 70 % of the pilots you are referencing were hired after 2003. They didn't make ANY concessions!!

Do you have any idea of how many people there are with an APL or one readily in reach who would gladly take the right seat on a 321 for $150,000 per yr.? They're waiting in the wings. Remove the union yoke and you'll quickly find out the current "value" of that APL!!

Speaking as a capitalist, you understand.

[Turbofan]

I do! 

However.  It is charming you think there are that many pilots in Canada willing to pay 6 figures for a job at AC starting at 60k.  You know after being in the industry for 10 years.

There is a reason there is a shortage.  See above.

I'm trying to remember........what happens when something is in short supply?

I'm educated too.  I thought I went right.  40 years later I find myself left. I must have gone off roading somewhere.  

 

The next generation is entitled to have what I had.

Back to you. 

[UpperDeck]

10 hours ago, Turbofan said:

I do! 

However.  It is charming you think there are that many pilots in Canada willing to pay 6 figures for a job at AC starting at 60k.  You know after being in the industry for 10 years.

..

10 hours ago, Turbofan said:

 

As of Aug 30, 2024, the average annual pay for an Entry Level Lawyer in Ontario is $48,273 a year.

 

https://www.ziprecruiter.com

 

Salary: Entry Level Lawyer in Ontario (September, 2024) - ZipRecruiter

[UpperDeck]

Sorry, Turbo. Didn't do a very good job of "cutting and pasting".

I thought it would be of interest to compare my starting salary in 1977 .....after BA; LLB; articles; Bar Ad with starting salaries in 2024. The equivalent dollar value is almost $105,000.!!!

I don't think anyone would pay a junior associate that much money in Ontario today. And I'm sure you've heard how many hours a week that entry level lawyer is expected to work.

So why would someone choose to spend all of those years and all of those tuition dollars to get a law degree? I'm guessing there are many motivators but one of those is the expectation of an above average income "down the road".

Two points: 1) comparing today's wage levels with those 20 plus years ago is a mug's game; and, 2) $60,000 per annum to start for an entry level RP isn't out of line given the reasonable expectation of upward mobility.

But I readily concede that comparing apples with some other kind of fruit isn't necessarily productive.

[Turbofan]

Response to point 1.
 

I completely disagree. We gave to help this company survive.  Now that it is back on its feet, it’s now our turn to get what we gave, back.  Full stop.

 

Response to point 2.

Careful, you will get some angry responses from people in their 30’s and 40’s, (if that demographic exists on this forum) with thousands of hours, by essentially referring to them as newbies in the industry. RP is not an "entry level" position in this industry.  It is what some new hires get assigned but it is the minority. 

In the grand scheme of things very few new hires go to an RP position.  Most go to narrow body FO.  Some even get assigned wide body FO.  That’s right. We have very experienced Widebody FO’s, with thousands of hours, making 60K to start.  It makes us a laughing stock within the piloting community.

These "entry level" individuals, as you call them, on average are are in their 30’s. Some are in their late 20’s.  Some even in their 50’s. Former Dash 8 Captains.  Former Canadian forces. Former medivac. Former expat Captains that left Cathay, Qatar, or Emirates for example.  

All taking massive pay cuts to take that 60K job in Toronto or Vancouver to start.

By about this point you are probably wondering, why would experienced pilots do that???  Why, because history (mugs game) hasn’t served Canadians well.  We have nowhere else to go.  Our nationality traps us here, unless you want to go to the sandbox that is.

So what does an experienced Canadian pilot do?  Withdraw services is all we have.  Everything short of that has been met with "You’re just a Canadian ". You don’t deserve better.  Or "You took the job".  It’s your problem.

Please refrain from the narrative that these individuals are just starting out or new.  They are not just out of flying school looking for an entry level job.

[Turbofan]

A view from 36000 feet.

When the AC pilots left ACPA and joined ALPA it was with the intent to join forces and correct the profession in Canada.  Canadian pilots have had enough.  This is a process that started 3-5 years ago.  It’s not new.  You are simply seeing it play out.

Notice WJ pilots went to the strike wire for a 24% raise.

Now it is our turn to leapfrog WJ pilots.

Next it will be Transats turn.

Then it will be back to WJ and AC pilots again.

We will correct history ( mugs game) eventually.  How long it takes is dependent on how hard companies fight back.  It could be a few years of volatility. If that’s what it takes?  That’s what it takes. It’s not just pilots either.  AME’s and dispatchers have had their wages also suppressed.  
 

The recent volitivity in Canadian aviation is not by coincidence. Nor is it likely to be temporary.  Past Government interference is partly to blame for the situation.  More interference will only lead to a longer timeline of volitivity.  
 

What won’t go away is Canadian professional pilots banding together across ALL companies to demand proper compensation and work life balance.
 

On a side note.  Porter is the outlier here.  They know what is going on. Instead of fighting their pilots?  They are simply matching pay raises happening at other properties as they go along. At the moment a Porter E2 Captain makes 270k/year at top scale.  That’s equivalent to a 25 year 787 CA at AC.

And yes Porter has picked up a huge section of Jazz’s seniority list now.  So much so Jazz can’t staff for the aircraft they have.

[UpperDeck]

Turbo....in "correcting" me, you raise a point that I believe is important and introduces a subject you avoid intentionally or otherwise.

I referenced "entry level" as a follow-up to YOUR earlier example of an RP's beginning salary ( again compared with 2003).

However, as you note, there are many pilots who arrive at AC's doors who have a great deal of aviation experience. Using an earlier analogy, they are akin to a trial lawyer leaving one firm to join another. No question....that lawyer would never accept a position that paid him/her the same salary as a lawyer newly admitted ( ps...a "new lawyer" can be a 50 yo).

So ..what's the difference? Surely AC would pay that highly experienced aviator type-qualified on a widebody aircraft what similarly qualified existing AC pilots earn?

Nope! And why? Look in the mirror. You come to AC, you go to the BOTL and no " ifs and buts". Whether fresh out of flight school or arriving after 10 years with Cathay....you start on the same rung of the ladder.

Throw a change of that requirement into the negotiation hopper and you'll see joy on the faces of the AC mgmt side and a re-evaluation of the pay scale.

[Turbofan]

50 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....in "correcting" me, you raise a point that I believe is important and introduces a subject you avoid intentionally or otherwise.

I referenced "entry level" as a follow-up to YOUR earlier example of an RP's beginning salary ( again compared with 2003).

However, as you note, there are many pilots who arrive at AC's doors who have a great deal of aviation experience. Using an earlier analogy, they are akin to a trial lawyer leaving one firm to join another. No question....that lawyer would never accept a position that paid him/her the same salary as a lawyer newly admitted ( ps...a "new lawyer" can be a 50 yo).

So ..what's the difference? Surely AC would pay that highly experienced aviator type-qualified on a widebody aircraft what similarly qualified existing AC pilots earn?

Nope! And why? Look in the mirror. You come to AC, you go to the BOTL and no " ifs and buts". Whether fresh out of flight school or arriving after 10 years with Cathay....you start on the same rung of the ladder.

Throw a change of that requirement into the negotiation hopper and you'll see joy on the faces of the AC mgmt side and a re-evaluation of the pay scale.

Why wouldn’t I want to talk about it?  It’s definitely a variable to understand.  One which many don’t realize outside of the industry.

My son in law said to me last week.  Capitalist for sure. Why are you threatening to strike? AC is doing what it is supposed to do.  Pay as little as possible. If AC isn’t paying enough why not go get a better paying job at a different company?  Air Canada will eventually have to pay more.

He is a successful engineer.  That is how his industry works.  Probably much like yours.  If you don’t like it?  You go elsewhere for better pay and conditions.

I said I can’t go get a better paying job.  If I left to WJ, Porter or Transat I would have to take a very serious pay cut (North of 60%) and start at the bottom of their seniority list.  I would become a First Officer again with 20 something thousand hours. At my age probably never a Captain again.

I put it this way.  When he moved from company A to company B he was simply withdrawing his services from company A.

Pilots withdraw services as well.  We just do it collectively.  We don’t have the option to do it individually because seniority systems have handcuffs.

Is this the ideal system for pilots?  I don’t know.  Lots of people have debated other ideas.  It really doesn’t matter in the current situation though.

Currently we only have one viable way to withdraw services.  It’s collectively.

Quite frankly when I hear people say one way or the other is better.  Individually or collectively withdraw services.  I just shrug my shoulders.  That choice is up to the workers.  Unionism is perfectly legal.

What I snicker at though is hearing a capitalist defend his or her individual right to withdraw services while condemning the right of others to withdraw services collectively.

That mirror you just handed me. Would you like it back?

 

 

[Jaydee]

AC absolutely LOVES the seniority system! What better than to have a captive work force forever.

[Malcolm]

13 minutes ago, Jaydee said:

AC absolutely LOVES the seniority system! What better than to have a captive work force forever.

Most unions also love the seniority system.  It keeps the older workers on in time of staff reductions, gives a basis for shift bidding, vacations slots and the beat goes on.

Is the removal of the seniority system something that the AC pilot group is demanding?  

[UpperDeck]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

Why wouldn’t I want to talk about it?  It’s definitely a variable to understand.  One which many don’t realize outside of the industry.

My son in law said to me last week.  Capitalist for sure. Why are you threatening to strike? AC is doing what it is supposed to do.  Pay as little as possible. If AC isn’t paying enough why not go get a better paying job at a different company?  Air Canada will eventually have to pay more.

He is a successful engineer.  That is how his industry works.  Probably much like yours.  If you don’t like it?  You go elsewhere for better pay and conditions.

I said I can’t go get a better paying job.  If I left to WJ, Porter or Transat I would have to take a very serious pay cut (North of 60%) and start at the bottom of their seniority list.  I would become a First Officer again with 20 something thousand hours. At my age probably never a Captain again.

I put it this way.  When he moved from company A to company B he was simply withdrawing his services from company A.

Pilots withdraw services as well.  We just do it collectively.  We don’t have the option to do it individually because seniority systems have handcuffs.

Is this the ideal system for pilots?  I don’t know.  Lots of people have debated other ideas.  It really doesn’t matter in the current situation though.

Currently we only have one viable way to withdraw services.  It’s collectively.

Quite frankly when I hear people say one way or the other is better.  Individually or collectively withdraw services.  I just shrug my shoulders.  That choice is up to the workers.  Unionism is perfectly legal.

What I snicker at though is hearing a capitalist defend his or her individual right to withdraw services while condemning the right of others to withdraw services collectively.

That mirror you just handed me. Would you like it back?

 

 

I won't bore you with details but I was asked to represent someone in Florida. I contacted the powers that be to ask if I could write the Florida bar exams. Simple answer...."No!". The condition precedent was a degree from a US law school.

And the same is true of many other professions; our "skills" are not as portable as one may think. And it's our "unions" ( LSO for eg) that create those restrictions.

Nope....no mirror required. I am subject to the rules as are you and neither of us will move that rock.

But let me clarify. No one compelled me to choose to engage in the practise of law. I did so willingly and accepted the restrictions imposed.

You presumably enjoy flying. You knew that in North America, your options to work as a commercial airline pilot were constrained and you presumably knew that once you chose a path, you were bound to that route by seniority rules.

And you made your choice accordingly.

Personally, I am not a fan of unions. WHAT??!! That was apparent?

But I understand their purpose and function and if the collective decides ( as it has) that a larger ladle of soup is necessary and the chef says "No!", then shut down the canteen. Now ..no soup for anyone!

 

[neverminds]

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

Most unions also love the seniority system.  It keeps the older workers on in time of staff reductions, gives a basis for shift bidding, vacations slots and the beat goes on.

Is the removal of the seniority system something that the AC pilot group is demanding?  

No it is not.

 

[deicer]

https://www.travelandtourworld.com/news/article/air-canada-pilots-reject-salary-increase-chances-of-strike-action-with-air-travel-disruption-in-the-mid-september-heres-new-updates-you-need-to-know/

Air Canada pilots reject salary increase, chances of strike action with air travel disruption in the mid-September: Here’s new updates you need to know

In a significant escalation of labor tensions, Air Canada pilots have overwhelmingly rejected a 30% wage increase proposal from the airline.

This decision raises the likelihood of a potential strike, which could disrupt air travel across Canada as early as September 18th, according to the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union representing more than 5,400 Air Canada pilots.

 

 

[Seeker]

37 minutes ago, deicer said:

In a significant escalation of labor tensions, Air Canada pilots have overwhelmingly rejected a 30% wage increase proposal from the airline.

Wow!  30% is an amazing deal, right?  How come they rejected it?

First, it's not really 30%.  It's 20%, 3.3%, 3.3%, 3.3% - a four year deal.

Second, the end result is that an AC A320 pilot would still earn less than a Westjet B737 pilot.

Third, there is no description of what "improvements" in productivity or scope the company has left out of their "leaked" info.

Fourth, over the last 10 years the annual pay increase for pilots has been 0.5%.  Nope that's not a typo.  The AC pilots have fallen so far behind the industry that it's time to recover and 30% over 4 years won't do it.

Fifth, when is any corporation in Canada going to get penalized for bad faith bargaining?  This information was intentionally leaked by management against the NDA they signed for the sole intention of turning public sentiment against the pilots.  CN and CPKC did the exact same thing - "leaked" some carefully selected information about the negotiations to turn sentiment against the union.  Where's the government to fine or otherwise penalize the coroporation?

[mrlupin]

The comparison with CN and CPKC as far as intentional leaking goes is quite different. The Rail companies didn't appear to have non disclosure agreements. I listened to CN adverts during the buildup to government intervention and they were disclosing most details and even telling people to go to their website to see the proposals.

https://www.cn.ca/en/media/bargaining-updates

 

 

 

[deicer]

33 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Wow!  30% is an amazing deal, right?  How come they rejected it?

First, it's not really 30%.  It's 20%, 3.3%, 3.3%, 3.3% - a four year deal.

Second, the end result is that an AC A320 pilot would still earn less than a Westjet B737 pilot.

Third, there is no description of what "improvements" in productivity or scope the company has left out of their "leaked" info.

Fourth, over the last 10 years the annual pay increase for pilots has been 0.5%.  Nope that's not a typo.  The AC pilots have fallen so far behind the industry that it's time to recover and 30% over 4 years won't do it.

Fifth, when is any corporation in Canada going to get penalized for bad faith bargaining?  This information was intentionally leaked by management against the NDA they signed for the sole intention of turning public sentiment against the pilots.  CN and CPKC did the exact same thing - "leaked" some carefully selected information about the negotiations to turn sentiment against the union.  Where's the government to fine or otherwise penalize the coroporation?

It's not just the pilots.

When we all took the cuts back in the day, it took 12 years just to get back to where we were prior.  That was with shorter term contracts as well.  

I am behind you all the way.  

Everyone else is watching with a great deal of interest where this will go.

[Seeker]

39 minutes ago, mrlupin said:

The comparison with CN and CPKC as far as intentional leaking goes is quite different. The Rail companies didn't appear to have non disclosure agreements. I listened to CN adverts during the buildup to government intervention and they were disclosing most details and even telling people to go to their website to see the proposals.

https://www.cn.ca/en/media/bargaining-updates

 

Hmmm, well, maybe I'm wrong about CN CPKC.  I know the NDAs are a standard feature of bargaining but maybe not in that case.  Certainly was in the AC/ALPA bargaining though.

[Vsplat]

It always strikes me as funny that CEO pay is defended as fair, since it is the product of negotiation, knowing one's worth, etc. 

So just to keep things consistent, wouldn't we

a) support any employee group who wishes to follow the lead of their CEO in seeking their correct level through negotiation; or

b) assail any CEO whose compensation increases at a rate beyond what they say the employees who generate the profit should get?

Just sayin,

Vs

[Turbofan]

Looks like TV put out a correction.

 

https://www.travelandtourworld.com/news/article/global-tourism-sector-to-face-massive-disruption-as-air-canada-pilot-strike-threatens-150-destinations-across-america-asia-europe-africa-and-middle-east/

As per our recent interaction with Air Canada pilots, it has been confirmed that no wage increase offer was presented, and no proposal was up for a vote. This clarification highlights the growing tension, especially after Air Canada walked away from negotiations before Labor Day. With a potential strike looming, travelers are strongly advised to reschedule their trips as disruptions may occur as early as September 18th.

[Kip Powick]

Then...where did those numbers come from ? They certainly were not made up by travel and tour world 

They must have been leaked from either ALPA, (negotiating staff), or AC Management....

[Turbofan]

1 hour ago, Kip Powick said:

Then...where did those numbers come from ? They certainly were not made up by travel and tour world 

They must have been leaked from either ALPA, (negotiating staff), or AC Management....

Sounds like a fair starting conclusion.  But I think we can probably narrow down the probability of which of the two by following the events in chronological order.  
 

It started with this

September 4 12:53 EDT

 

 

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business/2024/09/04/air-canada-offers-pilots-a-30-pay-boost-as-strike-deadline-nears/

Air Canada Offers Pilots a 30% Pay Boost as Strike Deadline Nears

(Bloomberg) -- Air Canada has offered to boost the pay of more than 5,000 pilots by about 30% within the next three years, according to people familiar with the matter, as it seeks to prevent a strike. 

Pilots at Canada’s largest airline would received a minimum 20% increase up front, followed by annual raises over a three-year period, said the people, asking not to be identified because the discussions are private. Pilots with one to four years of service would receive more, the people said.

The offer means that a captain with 10 years of service flying a widebody aircraft such as a Boeing 777 with a current salary of just over C$350,000 ($259,000) per year may see an increase of more than C$100,000 over the life of the contract, the people said. The airline’s offer also includes improvements in pension and health benefits.

Air Canada and the Air Line Pilots Association have been in talks for more than a year. The last contract, a 10-year deal that was ratified in 2014, provided pay increases of about 2% annually. The pilots haven’t received a raise since last year. 

Air Canada pilots are paid less than half of what industry counterparts receive, the union has said in previous statements.

 

Then the following morning on September 05.

https://openjaw.com/newsroom/airline/2024/09/05/acta-calls-for-intervention-as-ac-pilot-offer-revealed/

 

 

ACTA Calls for Intervention as Air Canada Pilot Offer Revealed

 

05.09.24 Open Jaw

ACTA is calling on Ottawa to step in before a potential Air Canada pilot strike wreaks havoc on the travel industry. Meanwhile, published reports say Air Canada has offered pilots a significant pay increase.

Bloomberg reports that Canada's largest airline has offered to boost the pay of its more than 5,000 pilots by about 30% within the next three years.

 

Then September 07

 

https://www.travelandtourworld.com/news/article/air-canada-pilots-reject-salary-increase-chances-of-strike-action-with-air-travel-disruption-in-the-mid-september-heres-new-updates-you-need-to-know/

Air Canada pilots reject salary increase, chances of strike action with air travel disruption in the mid-September: Here’s new updates you need to know

In a significant escalation of labor tensions, Air Canada pilots have overwhelmingly rejected a 30% wage increase proposal from the airline.

This decision raises the likelihood of a potential strike, which could disrupt air travel across Canada as early as September 18th, according to the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union representing more than 5,400 Air Canada pilots.

 

Then September 09

https://www.travelandtourworld.com/news/article/global-tourism-sector-to-face-massive-disruption-as-air-canada-pilot-strike-threatens-150-destinations-across-america-asia-europe-africa-and-middle-east/

As per our recent interaction with Air Canada pilots, it has been confirmed that no wage increase offer was presented, and no proposal was up for a vote. This clarification highlights the growing tension, especially after Air Canada walked away from negotiations before Labor Day. With a potential strike looming, travelers are strongly advised to reschedule their trips as disruptions may occur as early as September 18th.

 

 

[Turbofan]

It looks like "the people familiar with the matter" decided to negotiate in public in an attempt to foster an environment that would support government intervention.

 

Who would benefit from that?

 

[Seeker]

10 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

It looks like "the people familiar with the matter" were trying to foster an environment that would support government intervention.

 

Who would benefit from that?

 

Yes, quite the mystery.  What this country really needs is some sort of agency that would monitor these sorts of situations.  You know, to hold everyone accountable to the rules and laws, etc.

[Seeker]

https://media.aircanada.com/2024-09-09-Air-Canada-Prepares-for-Orderly-Shutdown-to-Mitigate-Customer-Impact-Resulting-from-Labour-Disruption

 

MONTREAL, Sept. 9, 2024 /CNW/ - Air Canada today said that it is finalizing contingency plans to suspend most of its operations. Talks between the company and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), representing more than 5,200 pilots at Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge, continue, but the parties remain far apart. Unless an agreement is reached, beginning on September 15, 2024, either party may issue a 72-hour strike or lock out notice, which would trigger the carrier's three-day wind down plan.

"Air Canada believes there is still time to reach an agreement with our pilot group, provided ALPA moderates its wage demands which far exceed average Canadian wage increases. However, Canadians have recently seen the chaos abrupt airline shutdowns cause for travellers, which obliges us to do everything we can to protect our customers from an increasingly likely work stoppage. This includes the extremely difficult decision to begin an orderly shutdown of Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge once a 72-hour strike or lock out notice is given, possibly as early as this Sunday," said Michael Rousseau, President and Chief Executive Officer of Air Canada.

Air Canada and ALPA have been in discussions for 15 months. Although tentative agreement has been reached on a large number of items for a new collective agreement, the union remains inflexible on its unreasonable wage demands.

The company is committed to maintaining its pilots' historic position as the best paid commercial pilots in Canada and is continuing to negotiate to secure such an agreement.

Alternatively, it has offered to the union to submit to arbitration. To date, the Federal Labour Minister has assisted the negotiation process by appointing a conciliator and mediator, and if a negotiated settlement is not reached, Air Canada would look to the government to intervene, as it has in recent labour disputes, to avoid a major disruption for Canadian travellers and other stakeholders. (bolding mine) A timeline of negotiations, backgrounders on the issues, pilot compensation and other information about the negotiations is available on our Media Centre.

[dagger]

23 hours ago, Seeker said:

Wow!  30% is an amazing deal, right?  How come they rejected it?

First, it's not really 30%.  It's 20%, 3.3%, 3.3%, 3.3% - a four year deal.

Second, the end result is that an AC A320 pilot would still earn less than a Westjet B737 pilot.

Third, there is no description of what "improvements" in productivity or scope the company has left out of their "leaked" info.

Fourth, over the last 10 years the annual pay increase for pilots has been 0.5%.  Nope that's not a typo.  The AC pilots have fallen so far behind the industry that it's time to recover and 30% over 4 years won't do it.

Fifth, when is any corporation in Canada going to get penalized for bad faith bargaining?  This information was intentionally leaked by management against the NDA they signed for the sole intention of turning public sentiment against the pilots.  CN and CPKC did the exact same thing - "leaked" some carefully selected information about the negotiations to turn sentiment against the union.  Where's the government to fine or otherwise penalize the coroporation?

Unless the Labour Code has changed to bar such "leaks", I think they are entitled to say or leak what they wish. Unions certainly do the opposite when bargaining terms are concessionary or underwhelming. Anyway, the pilots won't see another offer until the strike starts.

 https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/air-canada-prepares-for-orderly-shutdown-to-mitigate-customer-impact-resulting-from-labour-disruption-833522018.html