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[inchman]

Nice try Dagger. Once Air Canada's LCC proves a route, there is nil to zero chance of it changing to the higher cost mainline carrier.

What does it matter? For every widebody on LCC, they have to add one equal or larger aircraft to the mainline fleet. On the surface (as deep as most seem to look), this might seem moot, because we are getting the 787. Of course, we're not getting the 787 for almost 3 years AND 767s were to be retired one-for-one when it arrived. This keeps those aircraft in the AC fleet rather than selling them to someone who will compete against us.

So, the LCC is additional widebody flying... good for everyone from the 320 Captain seat down.

Like I said in a previous post, it might be worthwhile to tweak the proposed rules a bit, but to expect them to be brought up to mainline standards will surely scuttle the thing.

Businesses that stagnate, fail. And that's bad for everybody.

[UpperDeck]

Just exactly what "role" does Dagger play? His remarks seem to reflect the counsel of....the company? I have no idea but when I read his remarks regarding the use of SCOPE clauses as a means of protecting job security and current benefits, I shudder.

Recent experiences in the US should establish to a degree of certainty that such clauses are accepted by the company to get a foot in the door but the shoulder is not often far behind and the protection afforded by a scope provision(s) becomes illusory.

Is this in fact about aircraft utilization? Is it about market share? Or, might it in fact be (as feared) the "thin edge" of developing corporate strategy that is intended to significantly increase yields by reducing labour costs?

If it is indeed the latter then you must be afraid...very, very afraid...of any accomodation of an LCC that creates a two-tier wage and benefit scheme.

[Fido]

Suggesting that Dagger is:

a) Stephen Harper

Conservative

c) Republican

d) any of the above

is one of the dumbest posts on here.

[cp fa]

I see that there is now a petition circulating calling for the removal of all of the MEC, although I'm not sure who sent it because the person or group behind this doesn't sign their name/names to the emails.

I must say, I don't understand what all the hysteria is about. If you don't like the contract, just vote no. Eventually it will end up in arbitration, like it always does.

I'm not sure what staging a coup of the union exec in the middle of negotiations is going to accomplish.

[Kip Powick]

I see that there is now a petition circulating calling for the removal of all of the MEC, although I'm not sure who sent it because the person or group behind this doesn't sign their name/names to the emails.

I must say, I don't understand what all the hysteria is about. If you don't like the contract, just vote no. Eventually it will end up in arbitration, like it always does.

I'm not sure what staging a coup of the union exec in the middle of negotiations is going to accomplish.

PM...coming your way .....

[Johnny]

The pay for the LCC puts a Widebody 767 Captain, flying transatlantic flights, in 2011.

Below a DC8 Captain in 1980.

Not to mention the rest of the horrific work rules, taking the operation to the bottom of the industry.

Dagger, do Professionals in your industry (whatever that is) earn less and work more, than they did...

31 years ago?

In Raw Dollars, unadjusted for inflation.

Proves in spades what this Airline (and all others) think of their Pilots, it is nothing short of insulting. Furthermore, I am even more insulted that ACPA would try to convince anyone that this is a good deal.

The entire MEC has to go

[rudder]

The pay for the LCC puts a Widebody 767 Captain, flying transatlantic flights, in 2011.

Below a DC8 Captain in 1980.

Not to mention the rest of the horrific work rules, taking the operation to the bottom of the industry.

Dagger, do Professionals in your industry (whatever that is) earn less and work more, than they did...

31 years ago?

In Raw Dollars, unadjusted for inflation.

Proves in spades what this Airline (and all others) think of their Pilots, it is nothing short of insulting. Furthermore, I am even more insulted that ACPA would try to convince anyone that this is a good deal.

The entire MEC has to go

There are many airline Executives and industry watchers that would like to relegate airine pilots to the ranks of TTC bus drivers that require MOT medicals (no disrespect to the TTC employees intended). It happened in the 1980's with Harry Steele at EPA and continued with the Deluce family at each of their airlines. They all despised the unions that give professional pilots a collective voice and a legally recognised framework to express their views and enforce their industrial ambitions.

And in the current era, these messengers dress better and perhaps are more eloquent, but their view of pilot labour is no different. So they work feverishly to undermine the only tool that remains available to the pilots and that is the ability to speak with a unified voice under a union banner. If they can break the unity of the group, then the single voice is replaced by the voices of tribes. And guess who wins?

Don't play their game. One voice, and make it a loud one.

[internet]

The pay for the LCC puts a Widebody 767 Captain, flying transatlantic flights, in 2011.

Below a DC8 Captain in 1980.

Not to mention the rest of the horrific work rules, taking the operation to the bottom of the industry.

Dagger, do Professionals in your industry (whatever that is) earn less and work more, than they did...

31 years ago?

In Raw Dollars, unadjusted for inflation.

Proves in spades what this Airline (and all others) think of their Pilots, it is nothing short of insulting. Furthermore, I am even more insulted that ACPA would try to convince anyone that this is a good deal.

The entire MEC has to go

So is a 767 Captain underpaid now or overpaid in 1980?

[Johnny]

So is a 767 Captain underpaid now or overpaid in 1980?

Why don't you go ask the passengers on Colgan Air. Next question from the Mensa Society....

[Kip Powick]

............the unity of the group..........

One of the big problems with the "grassroots" group is that there has not been any "unity" for decades......and therein lies the main problem.

Just look what is happening inside the group right now.........thousands of hours of volunteer work done by those that "volunteer" stomped on by those that elected the 'volunteers...... and now want to 'recall'.......

Good luck...you're gonna need it.

[internet]

So is a 767 Captain underpaid now or overpaid in 1980?

Why don't you go ask the passengers on Colgan Air. Next question from the Mensa Society....

So someone who is paid more is a better pilot? How much was Piche paid? How about Sullenberger?

I give you that a junior guy at a regional is not that well compensated for their job - but you could argue that about almost any job, except for President of Air Canada, I hear. But - that is the market rate - remember buyers always set the price.

I can't imagine for a second, one second, that the rate AC was thinking of paying a 767 Captain at the LCC is anywhere close to what a Colgan Air pilot would make.

And by the way, the same word can be added to the end of GRASS and the beginning of SCAPE to form two other English words?

[Johnny]

One of the big problems with the "grassroots" group is that there has not been any "unity" for decades......and therein lies the main problem.

Just look what is happening inside the group right now.........thousands of hours of volunteer work done by those that "volunteer" stomped on by those that elected the 'volunteers...... and now want to 'recall'.......

Good luck...you're gonna need it.

Unfortunately, there is no choice Kip. These guys have to 'fall on their swords' and some (yet to be named) group will start over. It isn't going to be easy.

A snipped from Sulley, if you missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnnUsw-UYMA

[anonymous]

Johnny

Why are you so angry?

...the world changes, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ones...

When the USA decided to deregulate the airlines in the 1970s, the plot was set in motion...

And it has been bad news for airline pilots since then.

How come you guys who are launching this self-destruct mission don't mention that AC pilot are/would be the best paid airline pilots in North America (based on hourly rates), and that's not even including the DB pension that almost no other North American airline has left...(American Airlines AFAIK is the only other one.) The DB plan is probably worth about 25% more on top of the hourly rate...

You know, when someone gives you some news, and some of it's bad, one can reflect upon it and determine the consequences, the good and the bad....or one can get angry and try deny what's happening...

In the end, this has nothing to do with Calin's pay package or $2 billion of share holder equity or whatever..the industry is changing.

ACPA had a rep at an international conference with all the major airlines pilots attending. The negotiator for AA said its time to stop thumping chests and moving to the edge of the cliff...there are no more 20% pay raises...LCCs are coming and you better capture the work and the fix the working conditions later...but don't listen to the messenger, just shout and yell and heckle him

But of course, the ACPA cabal knows better, they know what happened in the negots, they know the industry 'cause they all have MBAs....

The only reason to revolt like this was because you knew you could get a better deal (and I'm willing to bet that ACPA won't) ...and you better bloody get one or the heads will roll, again.

This is not about respect, unity etc...it's business

As Dr Chester L Karass states, "You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"