Gone in 60 Days....

[handyman]

Please clarify!!!!!!!

If you are suggesting that everyone becomes an AME in maintenance, guess again.

Only those who complete the TC EXAMS as well as endorsments. There AT aircraft techs, a non licensed maintenance person as well as mechs again non licensed, all of which we as AME's must sign off on their work after the task is completed.

I purposely didn't get into to much detail but Military AME's are only Officers! As I said, they are not the same as a technician.

[Guest]

I purposely didn't get into to much detail but Military AME's are only Officers! As I said, they are not the same as a technician.

check that

[mrlupin]

You know that, but your negotiators don't?

Please explain how ACE would prevent a CCAA filing if AC ran out of cash.

FA@AC,

Why the urge to let AC survive at ALL cost?

What is wrong with asking/demanding what their plan is? Revenue is going down, yields are down, loads are down and our competitors are growing. AC pays double market rate for Heavy maintenance, it pays more for ground handling then it's competitors, it pays more for flight attendants then it's competitors and although I do not know how it compares in the management field, I doubt it is as efficient as it could be (the lack of any process improvement system and the fact that the same problems occur repetitively demonstrate this very well. AC is very change resistant).

Why is it wrong to ask what will change? Why do so many hold on to the status Quo like a life buoy? What will change in 21 months? Even if bond yields go up, even if the pension fund is doing better then, how will the core business be doing? Will AC be growing again or will it still be in a slow decline? If it is... don't you think the next crisis will again target the pension fund as the culprit? "Our competitors enjoy lower cost due to their pension plan..." will be the mantra chanted by management .At what point will you be willing to draw the line?

The older employees fight tooth and nail for the pension plan.... we the younger employee group do not know if it will be around when we retire. We listen to the various news sources, we read about the bankruptcies etc., and do not see ourselves as immune to much of the same. The GM type companies that were also resistant to change(like AC) now have lost so much of their pensions that the question begs to be asked... are we next? Pensions funds are dependant on healthy companies.... what will happen to make AC a healthy company?

So I cannot understand this blind trust many have, that someone else will take care of things and make it all better. If we want to make this company work, everyone has to be part of the solution.... and if we have no idea what the plan is,no idea of management's vision why continue blindly?

[Guest rozar s'macco]

If one is reasonably confident AC will not liquidate in CCAA, and if one further believes that the major outcome of CCAA will be a forced switch to DC pensions, what is the reason for an active employee with decades until retirement to vote yes on this?

A yes vote perpetuates this endless cycle of "protect the pensions, PROTECT THE PENSIONS" bargaining which effectively blocks us (us being the new, active employees) from ever, ever seeing a pay raise. I want money NOW, not in 25 years in some etheral sense that a pension may or may not be there in its present form. So, if CCAA means DC, I'm all for it.

I believe it will be much easier for pilots to claw back any potential wage losses on a peer to peer comparison. Easier than it will ever be with a DB pension that's for sure.

That will not, ever, be possible for the unskilled, unlicensed groups who should have everything to fear of CCAA. They will lose their DB, and they will get huge GM-style wage rollbacks to align with industry standards. There will be no clawing back in the future because nobody is anywhere close to what they earn now.

So, for the price of 5 years of pain in my career a no vote potentially gets me out of the DB pension prison, de-links me from the unskilled, unlicensed union buffoons ME-TOOing me from ever getting a pay raise in the future, and more than likely encourages scores of near-retirement senior pilots to quit in disgust, thus moving me up the list.

All hinging on the premise that liquidation is a threat, more than a probable outcome. If this proves to be false, I'm completely effed and will more than likely quit being an airline pilot while there is still time. I'd rather fight this now, when I'm young, than later when there are fewer options.

[mrlupin]

If one is reasonably confident AC will not liquidate in CCAA, and if one further believes that the major outcome of CCAA will be a forced switch to DC pensions, what is the reason for an active employee with decades until retirement to vote yes on this? 

A yes vote perpetuates this endless cycle of "protect the pensions, PROTECT THE PENSIONS" bargaining which effectively blocks us (us being the new, active employees) from ever, ever seeing a pay raise.  I want money NOW, not in 25 years in some etheral sense that a pension may or may not be there in its present form.  So, if CCAA means DC, I'm all for it. 

I believe it will be much easier for pilots to claw back any potential wage losses on a peer to peer comparison.  Easier than it will ever be with a DB pension that's for sure.

That will not, ever, be possible for the unskilled, unlicensed groups who should have everything to fear of CCAA.  They will lose their DB, and they will get huge GM-style wage rollbacks to align with industry standards.  There will be no clawing back in the future because nobody is anywhere close to what they earn now.

So, for the price of 5 years of pain in my career a no vote potentially gets me out of the DB pension prison, de-links me from the unskilled, unlicensed union buffoons ME-TOOing me from ever getting a pay raise in the future, and more than likely encourages scores of near-retirement senior pilots to quit in disgust, thus moving me up the list. 

All hinging on the premise that liquidation is a threat, more than a probable outcome.  If this proves to be false, I'm completely effed and will more than likely quit being an airline pilot while there is still time. I'd rather fight this now, when I'm young, than later when there are fewer options.

Great post!!!

[rudder]

If the quid for current pension plan terminations was replacement with a 6-10% company contribution DC Plan, reasonable COLA raises, an equity stake in AC, a voting seat on the AC BOD, and repatriation of AVEOS work - would it pass or fail?

[dagger]

If one is reasonably confident AC will not liquidate in CCAA, and if one further believes that the major outcome of CCAA will be a forced switch to DC pensions, what is the reason for an active employee with decades until retirement to vote yes on this?

So, what are the odds of both of those "ifs" coming to pass..?

Will ideologically driven unions allow such a pension conversion? Maybe the pilots would do it, but not CUPE or CAW.

They will SACRIFICE you so as not to set a precedent because you are but rumps for their main memberships (autoworkers and public employees).

And AC members of those unions, the IAM also, know it.

[mrlupin]

Repatriation of AVEOS work is an honorable demand but in a business.... you can't be expected to pay more then 10-15% above market rates for a service. Quality is important but not to the point of paying 100% more for it. That is a big part of the problem at AC.... The company pays more for services that it's competitors get for cheaper rates.

Maybe AVEOS will be a better component overhaul shop and engine maintenance center then a Heavy maintenance center.

[Guest]

So, what are the odds of both of those "ifs" coming to pass..?

Will ideologically driven unions allow such a pension conversion? Maybe the pilots would do it, but not CUPE or CAW.

They will SACRIFICE you so as not to set a precedent because you are but rumps for their main memberships (autoworkers and public employees).

And AC members of those unions, the IAM also, know it.

Your anti union mantra is getting real old.

I said to Farley at the negots table yesterday that this company could have ZERO debt, and ZERO pension plans along with the worlds best laid business plan, but because of the US AGAINST THEM corporate culture, it would still fail. Farley flat out agreed with me.

[handyman]

Your anti union mantra is getting real old.

I said to Farley at the negots table yesterday that this company could have ZERO debt, and ZERO pension plans along with the worlds best laid business plan, but because of the US AGAINST THEM corporate culture, it would still fail. Farley flat out agreed with me.

...again, Management 101.

How can smart people be so dumb when it comes to people management? They don't get it now and I fear they won't ever get it. Total greed and ignorance stands in the way.

This is where dagger jumps in with blah, blah, blah about unions, lazy workers and making the bottom line arguments. It's like trying to talk an NRA member out of his gun...just forget it!

[Lazionic]

If one is reasonably confident AC will not liquidate in CCAA, and if one further believes that the major outcome of CCAA will be a forced switch to DC pensions, what is the reason for an active employee with decades until retirement to vote yes on this?

A yes vote perpetuates this endless cycle of "protect the pensions, PROTECT THE PENSIONS" bargaining which effectively blocks us (us being the new, active employees) from ever, ever seeing a pay raise. I want money NOW, not in 25 years in some etheral sense that a pension may or may not be there in its present form. So, if CCAA means DC, I'm all for it.

I believe it will be much easier for pilots to claw back any potential wage losses on a peer to peer comparison. Easier than it will ever be with a DB pension that's for sure.

That will not, ever, be possible for the unskilled, unlicensed groups who should have everything to fear of CCAA. They will lose their DB, and they will get huge GM-style wage rollbacks to align with industry standards. There will be no clawing back in the future because nobody is anywhere close to what they earn now.

So, for the price of 5 years of pain in my career a no vote potentially gets me out of the DB pension prison, de-links me from the unskilled, unlicensed union buffoons ME-TOOing me from ever getting a pay raise in the future, and more than likely encourages scores of near-retirement senior pilots to quit in disgust, thus moving me up the list.

All hinging on the premise that liquidation is a threat, more than a probable outcome. If this proves to be false, I'm completely effed and will more than likely quit being an airline pilot while there is still time. I'd rather fight this now, when I'm young, than later when there are fewer options.

Excellent post! My sentiments exactly!

[Seeker]

I nominate rozar s'macco for our negotiating committee.

[FA@AC]

FA@AC,

Why the urge to let AC survive at ALL cost?

What is wrong with asking/demanding what their plan is?

That's your response to my request to you to explain your claim that ACE will not allow AC to collapse? I'm not sure I follow. Which way is it?

A few months back AC had a CEO who didn't seem to know what to do about the coming crisis (if he saw it coming at all). The BOD fired him. The current CEO has made his plan clear. Seek approval from the relevant authorities on pension funding relief, and be able to assure lenders that there will be no work stoppages or large increases to labour costs over the next 21 months. With that done, obtain the capital that AC needs in order to avoid a CCAA filing.

That's about as much of a plan as it's reasonable to expect for now. Under current economic conditions I don't see how any airline CEO can be expected to tell us where his airline will be more than a few months out. We don't know how the economy will be doing, where the Canadian dollar will stand, which of our routes will be affected most by the downturn as it continues, what crude prices will be, what route opportunities (if any) will arise or what our competitors will be doing. I fully understand your cynicism about the way AC has been run, but what I have seen so far leads me to expect that we'll see it run better under our new CEO. Had we done things his way back in 2003 and transitioned to a DC pension plan for new hires, we might not be as badly off as we are today.

It does, on the face of it, sounds as if our AMEs are poorly paid. I'm not sure how that came to be, and I'd be frustrated about it were I in your position. Running AC into the ground, however, doesn't sound like much of a solution, and I'm confident that one way or the other it won't be allowed to come to that.

[mrlupin]

You know that, but your negotiators don't?

Please explain how ACE would prevent a CCAA filing if AC ran out of cash.

ACE still has liquidity.

It is up for them to decide if investing that liquidity in AC to prevent losing the 75% they own is a good business venture. If it isn't, then maybe CCAA Version 2.0 is what is needed since version 1.0 was not enough. If you do not address the problems, you never move forward.

If our CEO's vision is limited to is a pension contribution moratorium , then maybe his only objective is to get the ACE money out of AC. Let's see a sound plan instead with some ideas we can all adhere to. The pension problem is just the tip of the iceberg.... what will be done to address the other problems? A good business plan goes a long way to attract investors.... A plan for the status quo doesn't inspire many to invest in a company who surfs from crisis to crisis and there is nothing in the present economy that points to a rose colored future so nothing that will bring future investors if we keep the same course. Corrections should be applied to where Air Canada plans and wants to be.

Pay cuts are very good at dissolving the glue that bonds companies together. The 2003 pay cuts did this. A pay freeze has the same effect... Now I have read Dagger's post on how employees who feel hard done should move on, but the pension plan is the golden noose that keeps employees at AC. Leaving is harder with a pension plan and everyone knows it. Eventually, a time comes when you need to address the problems instead of defering them.... Maybe now is that time.

[dagger]

ACE still has liquidity.

It is up for them to decide if investing that liquidity in AC to prevent losing the 75% they own is a good business venture. If it isn't, then maybe CCAA Version 2.0 is what is needed since version 1.0 was not enough. If you do not address the problems, you never move forward.

If our CEO's vision is limited to is a pension contribution moratorium , then maybe his only objective is to get the ACE money out of AC. Let's see a sound plan instead with some ideas we can all adhere to. The pension problem is just the tip of the iceberg.... what will be done to address the other problems? A good business plan goes a long way to attract investors.... A plan for the status quo doesn't inspire many to invest in a company who surfs from crisis to crisis and there is nothing in the present economy that points to a rose colored future so nothing that will bring future investors if we keep the same course. Corrections should be applied to where Air Canada plans and wants to be.

Pay cuts are very good at dissolving the glue that bonds companies together. The 2003 pay cuts did this. A pay freeze has the same effect... Now I have read Dagger's post on how employees who feel hard done should move on, but the pension plan is the golden noose that keeps employees at AC. Leaving is harder with a pension plan and everyone knows it. Eventually, a time comes when you need to address the problems instead of defering them.... Maybe now is that time.

Why is it only a pension moratorium he is after

What about the $600 million in capital being lined up?

What about negotiations with suppliers?

Do you not think there is a winter capacity plan?

Do you not think there are new routes to be explored?

Short of getting out of international operations, the only business plan I can imagine in the current economic context is to hunker down until the economy recovers and business travel revives.

How many international airlines are making money? BA wants staff to work a month for free. Even Ryanair has seen its profits plunge.

Yet you expect some sort of miracle, bullet proof business plan?

I wouldn't even implement a new plan for the next 12 months. The economy is too weak, the swine flu is a serious concern for next winter. The best plan for now is to keep adjusting capacity to demand, even if it means more layoffs.

I think you're naive if you think anyone in the airline industry can come up with the kind of plan for the next 12-24 months you'd sign on to. The best plan would be to lower ASM cost and tailor capacity to demand.

[mrlupin]

Dagger,

I'm not that hard to convince...

If layoffs are the answer.... execute them...

If outsourcing heavy maintenance is the answer.... do it

If outsourcing ramp services would reduce your cost in that area by a significant margin, then do it.

AC is full of sacred cows that cannot be touched....

Find a way to reduce costs, if that is the answer...

Short of getting out of international operations, the only business plan I can imagine in the current economic context is to hunker down until the economy recovers and business travel revives.

How about cost reductions,improved efficiency, allow leave of absences etc.... If you can't find areas needing improvement outside of new routes,winter capacity reduction, supplier hair cuts and employee wages, then you aren't looking hard enough. Your front line employees know what the problems are, they also know the solutions.... how about hearing them out instead of unilateral, top down management?

Hunker down needs to involve more then wait for better times.... Why not use today and tomorrow to improve things?

If I lose my job due to the "hunkering down", then so be it...

That part doesn't worry me...

[CanadaEH]

And when next years virus or epedemic or terrorist attack happens then what? Wait another 12 months? You need a plan now (TODAY) for what lies tomorrow. If you can't come up with one you might as well shut the doors and call it a day.

[Guest]

That's your response to my request to you to explain your claim that ACE will not allow AC to collapse? I'm not sure I follow. Which way is it?

A few months back AC had a CEO who didn't seem to know what to do about the coming crisis (if he saw it coming at all). The BOD fired him. The current CEO has made his plan clear. Seek approval from the relevant authorities on pension funding relief, and be able to assure lenders that there will be no work stoppages or large increases to labour costs over the next 21 months. With that done, obtain the capital that AC needs in order to avoid a CCAA filing.

That's about as much of a plan as it's reasonable to expect for now. Under current economic conditions I don't see how any airline CEO can be expected to tell us where his airline will be more than a few months out. We don't know how the economy will be doing, where the Canadian dollar will stand, which of our routes will be affected most by the downturn as it continues, what crude prices will be, what route opportunities (if any) will arise or what our competitors will be doing. I fully understand your cynicism about the way AC has been run, but what I have seen so far leads me to expect that we'll see it run better under our new CEO. Had we done things his way back in 2003 and transitioned to a DC pension plan for new hires, we might not be as badly off as we are today.

It does, on the face of it, sounds as if our AMEs are poorly paid. I'm not sure how that came to be, and I'd be frustrated about it were I in your position. Running AC into the ground, however, doesn't sound like much of a solution, and I'm confident that one way or the other it won't be allowed to come to that.

No offence, but Calin was the guy along with Milton who came up with the CCAA plan. the one where they said that they fixed the "model is broken". The plan failed miserably and now he wants another kick at the can. I do not have faith in his Red Green duct tape repair, this stinks of another ponnzi scheme to make certain individuals very wealthy, a Madoff syndrome.

I was at the negotstable the past few days, they had no more interest in negotaiting this time as they did the last round, they for all intents and purposes told us to "F" off, were not the least bit interested in how bad the culture is and could not care less that the employees hate this company and the people who run it.

As to AME wages, I can live with this for now, but it truly needs to be dealt with in the very near future.

[Guest]

Why is it only a pension moratorium he is after

What about the $600 million in capital being lined up?

What about negotiations with suppliers?

Do you not think there is a winter capacity plan?

Do you not think there are new routes to be explored?

Short of getting out of international operations, the only business plan I can imagine in the current economic context is to hunker down until the economy recovers and business travel revives.

How many international airlines are making money? BA wants staff to work a month for free. Even Ryanair has seen its profits plunge.

Yet you expect some sort of miracle, bullet proof business plan?

I wouldn't even implement a new plan for the next 12 months. The economy is too weak, the swine flu is a serious concern for next winter. The best plan for now is to keep adjusting capacity to demand, even if it means more layoffs.

I think you're naive if you think anyone in the airline industry can come up with the kind of plan for the next 12-24 months you'd sign on to. The best plan would be to lower ASM cost and tailor capacity to demand.

You contiually refuse to answer the question of what happened to the envy of the aviation industry business plan post CCAA, the one that lasted less than 3 years, so now I am to have faith in the same person who came up with that plan, no Farking way!

[FA@AC]

No offence, but Calin was the guy along with Milton who came up with the CCAA plan. the one where they said that they fixed the "model is broken".

No offence taken, Robert. You're obviously a reasonable guy. I just have an outlook on our current situation that differs somewhat from yours.

From what I remember, Calin never claimed to have fixed anything. He left, I believe, as soon as the unions refused to go along with Li`s plan to transition to DC pensions for new hires. If, given where we sit, he can avoid a second bankruptcy filing and do it without touching my paycheque for the next 21 months, that will be good enough for now to make him my hero.

The best of luck to you at the bargaining table. We all now it ain`t easy.

[buzz]

I've got over 20 years in this chaotic company (counting YOS at CAIL and affiliates) and I would have this place switch to a DC plan in a heartbeat. Back when Li was trying to make the change I thought it was great news, I still think it would be positive.

A portable fund that is self directed, passes 100% of it's value on to an estate (instead of 60% to a spouse and much much less to an estate), has fixed contributions and no funding holidays by an employer and can be converted when retired into something that you can withdraw as you see fit depending upon your circumstances. It still sounds like a winner.

buzz

[rudder]

If, given where we sit, he can avoid a second bankruptcy filing and do it without touching my paycheque for the next 21 months, that will be good enough for now to make him my hero.

Do you really believe that your paycheque is 100% guaranteed for the next 21 months as long as you say yes?

[Guest rattler]

Do you really believe that your paycheque is 100% guaranteed for the next 21 months as long as you say yes?

Even if folks are convinced that the pay cheques will not be guaranteed for 21 months it does give the skeptics time to look for that greener pasture and get ahead of the herd of folks looking for new jobs if / when AC closes it's doors.

Another point to remember is that any replacement for AC will likely be non union and have the luxury of picking / choosing who they hire (there will be lots of folks on the job market) along with how much these newbies will get paid. As for maintainence, the new carrier would also have the ability to farm out any Maintenance work that it wants. Using Westjet as example, a lot of their work is farmed out and I wonder if one was to compare the number of Westjet maintainence staff per aircraft to the ratio at present day AC would Westjet have a lower percentage of Maintenance Employees per aircraft than AC?

[Guest]

Another point to remember is that any replacement for AC will likely be non union and have the luxury of picking / choosing who they hire (there will be lots of folks on the job market) along with how much these newbies will get paid.  As for maintainence,  the new carrier would also have the ability to farm out any Maintenance work that it wants.  Using Westjet as example, a lot of their work is farmed out and I wonder if one was to compare the number of Westjet maintainence staff per aircraft to the ratio at present day AC would Westjet have a lower percentage of Maintenance Employees per aircraft than AC?

WetJet only farms out its heavy maintenance, it a case such as YUL, with the "C" Series likely to start up in the not too distant future, there will be plenty of jobs in YUL, in BC where there are many aviation jobs as AC is having a difficult time trying to get people to return. YWG may be a soft spot but the numbers there are minimal. Lets not forget and AME is a definate assest when applying for other technical work.

Now for the Line aspect, farming out would be very difficult as places like YYZ will still be a hub ad therefore having a 3rd party doing work and meaning you have to wait in line until some one is available is just not a viable option, in house maintenance is truly the only solution. Added to that with the current rate being over 80k, you will have to pay this wage to attract and retain staff, coupled with that is, if this new entity takes on the AC metal such as the 777's, 330's etc etc, not too many people carry those endorsments as AC is the only ones in this country who fly the 777 and the 330 is not a common endorsment nor is the E190.So they will be very limited as to who they can select.

[Guest]

No offence taken, Robert.  You're obviously a reasonable guy.  I just have an outlook on our current situation that differs somewhat from yours.

From what I remember, Calin never claimed to have fixed anything.  He left, I believe, as soon as the unions refused to go along with Li`s plan to transition to DC pensions for new hires.  If, given where we sit, he can avoid a second bankruptcy filing and do it without touching my paycheque for the next 21 months, that will be good enough for now to make him my hero.

The best of luck to you at the bargaining table.  We all now it ain`t easy.

I do not for an instant believe they want to avoid CCAA. From the moment we returned to the table they went directly to threats of CCAA, they said they were filing on the Thursday and repeated the same BS on the Friday and and made it clear they were not intersted in talking, so that tells me this whole proces was ruze and they want CCAA to be able to shed the pension plans and who knows what else. This is just my opinion and I hope I am incorrect, only time will tell.