Gone in 60 Days....

[Guest rattler]

Hmmmm ...how to say this?....

Rattler, ...first, as Seeker points out, some of us are NOT paid "well above" at all... Some of us are in fact BELOW industry standard, AND below anything reasonable... Especially, in the case of AME's working midnight shifts without a dime extra for the extreme pains associated with that., imo.

Many of us have seen enough concessions. We give, the execs take, the shareholders take. The "three legged stool", as many of us been have been saying for a looooong time, has had one leg sawed off.

Some of us are not willing to lay down and get run over AGAIN!

Too much was taken last time, and it's already cost AC a lot. It's time to set that little fauxpas right.

...and, imo (as well as the o of others, evidently), if that means this airline can't fly, shame that that would be, so be it. The next employer will have to learn from that. 

Everyone has their limit Rattler. Many of those in my line of work are right at that point.

As well... there are some who believe that AC will play these extreme conditions games to the n'th degree, just to squeeze some more dollars loose for the thieves, who don't give a flyin' fahootek for the long term stability of the company, and who'll just run with the money. (again)

Edited to add... EI isn't much of a worry for AME's either. The flying has to be done by someone, and they'll be needing their aircraft maintained.

Re

EI isn't much of a worry for AME's either. The flying has to be done by someone, and they'll be needing their aircraft maintained.

Mitch: but will they pay the same as you presently earn at AC or will it be a buyers market????????? I hope no one has to find out the hard way. Sometimes it is best to live to fight another day.

[Mitch Cronin]

Well, lots of anger in your post or maybe that's just how I'm reading it. Look, I don't need to get paid more - that's not the reason to vote NO. The reason to vote NO is because management is not being honest with us. They have a plan to reveal a "broader restructuring" after the contract extensions are voted in and I DON'T TRUST THEM. I plan to vote NO because I DON'T TRUST THEM, are you beginning to see a pattern? They promised that we would be the envy of the aviation world after the last restructuring if we would just make those concessions and then claimed that we were - for a year or two - until now suddenly we're completely broke, but - IDONTTRUSTTHEM! You see? They're a bunch of lying thieves. The reason for the 21 month extension is to give enough time for ACE, Cerberus and the rest of the pack to cash out their last ownership in AC. I guarantee you that if this 21 month extension passes that we will be back in a worse position at the end of it except that CR, RM and the rest of the merry band will be long gone over the hill.

5 Years? 10 years? Not going to happen unless we take the company away from the bandits.

Well said Seeker sir! Trust. Exactly.

[dagger]

Well, lots of anger in your post or maybe that's just how I'm reading it.  Look, I don't need to get paid more - that's not the reason to vote NO.  The reason to vote NO is because management is not being honest with us.  They have a plan to reveal a "broader restructuring" after the contract extensions are voted in and I DON'T TRUST THEM.  I plan to vote NO because I DON'T TRUST THEM, are you beginning to see a pattern?  They promised that we would be the envy of the aviation world after the last restructuring if we would just make those concessions and then claimed that we were - for a year or two - until now suddenly we're completely broke, but - IDONTTRUSTTHEM!  You see?  They're a bunch of lying thieves.  The reason for the 21 month extension is to give enough time for ACE, Cerberus and the rest of the pack to cash out their last ownership in AC.  I guarantee you that if this 21 month extension passes that we will be back in a worse position at the end of it except that CR, RM and the rest of the merry band will be long gone over the hill.

5 Years? 10 years? Not going to happen unless we take the company away from the bandits.

You don't trust them so you are going to blow your brains out?

I really feel for you, I do.

If they are that malevolent, it makes all kind of sense to push the company into CCAA so they can really SCREW YOU.

When you take the company away from them, as you say (and frankly if they all disappeared overnight I wouldn't care), who brings the new capital AC needs? Who are the new investors? What makes it attractive for them to invest in Air Canada when AC couldn't attract a traditional investor in the last CCAA?

You guys keep avoiding this question.

You are FAKKING DELUSIONAL, as Fido suggests, if you think there is new money here, unless of course, you drop your pants for a new investor (convert the pension plan, cut labor costs by 20%). Then maybe you'll get more shares and attract the hundreds of millions needed.

Did you see what the feds did to GM Workers. It told them TWICE to go back to the table and cut labor costs to a competitive level.

You have no idea the size and speed of the locomotive coming at YOU if AC goes into CCAA.

You will get zero public support because you went against the reasonable position of your union.

You will be given a choice - concede costs BIGTIME or lose your jobs. PERIOD

Yes, Jazz and AVEOS will get FAKKED as well. And AVEOS may go out of business because if AC pays less for maintenance, then it probably croaks. So it perfect sense for the AVEOS people to vote AC into CCAA - so most of them can lose their jobs and the most senior bump into ACM and kill the jobs of the ACM guys who voted against the deal.

Heck, it's stupidity heaped on stupidity.

But tearing up those contracts is not nearly enough to draw the kind of investment needed. You will need to lower total AC operating costs by $400-500 million more per year, and maybe half that will come from various suppliers like Jazz. Maybe a few older Airbus aircraft will be marked to market.

I don't know what is going to happen in 21 months, but this is for sure - vote the company into CCAA and you will be worse off on Labor Day of this year! You won't need to wait 21 months. You'll be in the biggest EI line in 30 years or facing further concessions to keep the airline flying.

And Mitch, when Kevin Benson set in motion a plan for the orderly shutdown of Canadian, he was absolutely ready to go the distance. This time, you won't even have an airline guy holding the trigger - just lawyers for creditors.

[Mitch Cronin]

Sometimes it is best to live to fight another day.

Yep. That's true. That's why we worked through these six years of a really lousy contract.

Today is another day.

[Mitch Cronin]

Did you see what the feds did to GM Workers. It told them TWICE to go back to the table and cut labor costs to a competitive level.

Y'see? Some of us at are already BELOW competitive levels... And, of course, some aren't. SO ADJUST THINGS!

[dagger]

Y'see? Some of us at are already BELOW competitive levels... And, of course, some aren't. SO ADJUST THINGS!

Are you competitive with Westjet maintenance costs and their suppliers?

Don't scrounge around for Transat scales because they are not your competition.

[Guest rattler]

Yep. That's true. That's why we worked through these six years of a really lousy contract.

Today is another day.

Being that today is another day I imagine you worked this out.

- Presenty employed by AC and because of the Union contracts AC has xx number of my category per aircraft, my seniority allows me to bit days off / vacations and I have a pension plan.

- potential future employer is non union, has xx- number of my category per aircraft (as they farm out a lot of work) therefore even if they acquire more aircraft they don't need as many in my category, no pension plan, no ability to bid my days off or shifts and because more of us will be looking for work, if I am hired I will be starting at the bottom of the wage scale.

Is the future more positive or more negative if I vote against staying with the status quo until the economy turns around?

[Guest rattler]

You don't trust them so you are going to blow your brains out?

I really feel for you, I do.

If they are that malevolent, it makes all kind of sense to push the company into CCAA so they can really SCREW YOU.

When you take the company away from them, as you say (and frankly if they all disappeared overnight I wouldn't care), who brings the new capital AC needs? Who are the new investors? What makes it attractive for them to invest in Air Canada when AC couldn't attract a traditional investor in the last CCAA?

You guys keep avoiding this question.

You are FAKKING DELUSIONAL, as Fido suggests, if you think there is new money here, unless of course, you drop your pants for a new investor (convert the pension plan, cut labor costs by 20%). Then maybe you'll get more shares and attract the hundreds of millions needed.

Did you see what the feds did to GM Workers. It told them TWICE to go back to the table and cut labor costs to a competitive level.

You have no idea the size and speed of the locomotive coming at YOU if AC goes into CCAA.

You will get zero public support because you went against the reasonable position of your union.

You will be given a choice - concede costs BIGTIME or lose your jobs. PERIOD

Yes, Jazz and AVEOS will get FAKKED as well. And AVEOS may go out of business because if AC pays less for maintenance, then it probably croaks. So it perfect sense for the AVEOS people to vote AC into CCAA - so most of them can lose their jobs and the most senior bump into ACM and kill the jobs of the ACM guys who voted against the deal.

Heck, it's stupidity heaped on stupidity.

But tearing up those contracts is not nearly enough to draw the kind of investment needed. You will need to lower total AC operating costs by $400-500 million more per year, and maybe half that will come from various suppliers like Jazz. Maybe a few older Airbus aircraft will be marked to market.

I don't know what is going to happen in 21 months, but this is for sure - vote the company into CCAA and you will be worse off on Labor Day of this year! You won't need to wait 21 months. You'll be in the biggest EI line in 30 years or facing further concessions to keep the airline flying.

And Mitch, when Kevin Benson set in motion a plan for the orderly shutdown of Canadian, he was absolutely ready to go the distance. This time, you won't even have an airline guy holding the trigger - just lawyers for creditors.

Dagger with all due respect. You have nothing, at least if we believe you, to lose or gain, so why the anguish?????

Mitch and I do and although we disagree on what to do, we have earned the right to voice our opinion without an outsider taking cheap shots!!

So how about applying a button to your lip!!!!

[dagger]

Being that today is another day I imagine you worked this out.

- Presenty employed by AC and because of the Union contracts AC has xx number of my category per aircraft, my seniority allows me to bit days off / vacations and I have a pension plan.

- potential future employer is non union, has xx- number of my category per aircraft (as they farm out a lot of work) therefore even if they acquire more aircraft they don't need as many in my category, no pension plan, no ability to bid my days off or shifts and because more of us will be looking for work, if I am hired I will be starting at the bottom of the wage scale.

Is the future more positive or more negative if I vote against staying with the status quo until the economy turns around?

Naw, Mitch isn't going to cost out total compensation costs like the feds did with GM workers.

He's only going to spin it to his advantage which is understandable, but misleading. The feds, if they choose to try to keep AC flying, will wait until no investors step forward and then force concessions down the throats of the unions and vendors.

if I were in an AC union I'd much rather have this fight outside of CCAA, without Jim Baird egging on the process, and with a better economy.

[Mitch Cronin]

Dagger,

I haven't the foggiest clue what WJ's overall maintenance costs are. Nor do I need to know. I do know that their AME's work for a company that knows the value of their employees and treats them well.

Rattler... Yep, those are all good questions... How I'd answer, how my wife would answer, and how all the others answer.... Probably many differences eh?

Me, I don't care if I ever have another dollar in my hands as long as I'm happy. It's hard for those who work for AC to be very happy at present.

[Guest rattler]

Dagger,

I haven't the foggiest clue what WJ's overall maintenance costs are. Nor do I need to know. I do know that their AME's work for a company that knows the value of their employees and treats them well.

Rattler... Yep, those are all good questions... How I'd answer, how my wife would answer, and how all the others answer.... Probably many differences eh?

Me, I don't care if I ever have another dollar in my hands as long as I'm happy. It's hard to be very happy working for AC at present.

And you know Mitch, I can agree with you on that. Working hurt is no fun at all and one should do all possible to change that. I am just not sure that briinging down AC will improve the situation.

Cheers Mate.

[FA@AC]

It's hard to be very happy working for AC at present.

Might the nonstop moaning that we hear from certain AC employees have something to do with that?

[dagger]

Dagger with all due respect. You have nothing, at least if we believe you, to lose or gain, so why the anguish?????

Mitch and I do and although we disagree on what to do, we have earned the right to voice our opinion without an outsider taking cheap shots!!

So how about applying a button to your lip!!!!

As a taxpayer, I will certainly be asked to contribute. The feds are already promising loans. I have a quarter million Aeroplan miles which isn't much, but it means I do have a tangential stake. I know people at the airline, and don't wish for them to lose their jobs based on emotion rather than reason. And I don't want to see Canada deprived of a scheduled intercontinental airline, especially at this terrible economic juncture, so as a patriot I have a stake.

Air Canada plays a larger social role in this country - it doesn't exist to give Mitch a job or you a pension. Those are happy byproducts of its raison d'etre, which is to fly people and cargo to/from and within Canada.

[Guest rattler]

As a taxpayer, I will certainly be asked to contribute. The feds are already promising loans. I have a quarter million Aeroplan miles which isn't much, but it means I do have a tangential stake. I know people at the airline, and don't wish for them to lose their jobs based on emotion rather than reason. And I don't want to see Canada deprived of a scheduled intercontinental airline, especially at this terrible economic juncture, so as a patriot I have a stake.

Air Canada plays a larger social role in this country - it doesn't exist to give Mitch a job or you a pension. Those are happy byproducts of its raison d'etre, which is to fly people and cargo to/from and within Canada.

And here I thought the only reason AC existed was to provide a return to it's shareholders. Regarding my pension, they are not giving me anything, my contributions for 35 years entitle me to my pension under the terms of my pension agreement.

But if we do concede that you have a right to comment, then please keep your comments civil as you just did.

[dagger]

And here I thought the only reason AC existed was to provide a return to it's shareholders.

But if we do concede that you have a right to comment, then please keep your comments civil.

Who's the "we". Are you speaking for the Grand Ayatollah?

[Mitch Cronin]

Dagger. Your concern is understood. And I reckon your interests are valid... As a patriot, I'm with you. ...and, as an AME! I'd hate to see AC liquidate.

Rattler.... What can I say?.... For what it's worth, I should mention I'm not working hurt. I'm on the injured list at the moment.

Cheers to you as well Mate.

[Guest rattler]

Who's the "we". Are you speaking for the Grand Ayatollah?

There you go again acting like a complete **bleep**.

We are those who are part of this industry and have been or are employed by AC or the companies that it aquired thoughout it's history and or own Air Canada Shares!

[Seeker]

You proclaimed your distrust of management 3 times in upper case. Is that a sign of anger? Is it a sign of anger that you're so erratic in the posting of your views? Upthread, in response to my remark about salaries you wrote

"People who work at other airlines don't receive as much in salaries. I think you have just highlighted the reason why the pilots and AMEs will/have vote/d NO. As a pilot, I am paid less than (Canadian) industry average for my relative place in the industry."

and in your next post you stated that salaries weren't a reason to vote no.

I'm saying that the fact that many pilots and AME are paid below industry average is a good enough reason to vote NO but that for me personally I plan to vote NO based on my distrust of the management. This TA was force fed to us under an artificially manipulated timeline by an arbitrator/mediator operating outside his apparent authority enticed by a corrupt management - so, NO, I don't agree to the terms.

[moeman]

I plan to vote NO based on my distrust of the management.

Will voting NO make you trust management more? I don't get it.

[Guest rattler]

Will voting NO make you trust management more? I don't get it.

Or will it ensure that you continue to earn a salary???? If the pasture is indeed greener on the other side of the fence, why not make the leap now????

[Mitch Cronin]

Well, on one level, it's simple... Imagine the same scenario to the extreme (for illustration purposes)... Imagine they came and said "we're broke, we can only pay you a dollar a day for 21 months." Obvioulsy it'd be hard to find anyone who'd accept that.

So this situation isn't so extreme, but, like the lady in the joke about the guy asking her to sleep with him for a million dollars, we're all willing to sell ourselves, but the question is for what price. Some think the cost is already too high. Some are at their limit, and some are willing to go lower.

[Guest rattler]

Well, on one level, it's simple... Imagine the same scenario to the extreme (for illustration purposes)... Imagine they came to us and said "we're broke, we can only pay you a dollar a day for 21 months." Obvioulsy it'd be hard to find anyone who'd accept that.

So this situation isn't so extreme, but, like the lady in the joke about the guy asking her to sleep with him for a million dollars, we're all willing to sell ourselves, but the question is for what price. Some think the cost is already too high. Some are at their limit, and some are willing to go lower.

From my side of the fence Mitch, those who are currently employed by AC and who vote against the current offer are all prepared to go much lower but their pay cheque will no longer come from Aircanada. it seems a little like a desire to "throw out the baby with the bath water", at least from my perspective.

[dagger]

I'm saying that the fact that many pilots and AME are paid below industry average is a good enough reason to vote NO but that for me personally I plan to vote NO based on my distrust of the management. This TA was force fed to us under an artificially manipulated timeline by an arbitrator/mediator operating outside his apparent authority enticed by a corrupt management - so, NO, I don't agree to the terms.

I thought of you when I saw this.

[mrlupin]

I thought of you when I saw this.

Fear mongering...

The sky is falling, the sky is falling....

ACE has too big a stake in this to let it fall.... It still owns 75% of AC.

Let's see a restructuring plan an then, we can vote on whether or not we want to adhere to this management team's vision.

[FA@AC]

ACE has too big a stake in this to let it fall.... It still owns 75% of AC.

You know that, but your negotiators don't?

Please explain how ACE would prevent a CCAA filing if AC ran out of cash.