handyman Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I thought of you when I saw this. That is a low blow dagger but when is enough, enough? How low should they go until it's not worth continuing? I would suggest that fine line is very near and short of a few rough months, most might be better off looking for new employment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 most might be better off looking for new employment. Tell me where. If thousands of AMEs and pilots are looking for jobs in this economy, at the same time, where do they go? And for other jobs, like FA and CSA, Flaherty since unemployment numbers will continue to rise into 2010. Seriously. I'm just stating facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I thought of you when I saw this. Incredible! You're going to use Frank Lorenzo as shining example of superior airline management? Are you really suggesting that the employees at Eastern Airlines should have given in to Lorenzo at any cost? The employees in that cartoon should be proud of their victory. "Francisco (Frank) A. Lorenzo was one of the most notorious players in the history of commercial aviation in the United States. The Deregulation Act of 1978 allowed Lorenzo to expand his business dealings and he systematically began to acquire companies such as Continental Airlines, New York Air, Frontier Airlines, and Eastern Airlines, in his bid to compete with the new non-unionized airlines. By the mid-1980s, he had acquired a reputation for vicious business practices that were particularly unfair to the labor force. By filing for bankruptcy at different points in his career, he was able to bypass unionized labor and impose harsh working conditions on the employees of his various corporations. His rise to the top was finally thwarted when Eastern Airlines collapsed in 1991 and a U.S. bankruptcy court ruled that Lorenzo was unfit to run the company. Lorenzo left the debacle with a vast personal fortune and tried to found a new airline called Friendship in 1993, but the U.S. Department of Transportation did not grant him permission." I think you've pretty much lost all credibility now that you have made this comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I could perhaps picture a CCAA restructuring during which the DB pension plans were jettisoned and labour costs in other areas were sharply reduced, but why any AC employee would want to go down that road is beyond me. A few have somehow got the idea that they'd benefit from a CCAA. The idea, from what I can gather, is that AC's BOD and entire management team would be given the shove, and that they'd be replaced by executives who would understand that the only way for AC to prosper is to triple the salaries of its employees. The IAM NO vote I can understand. If the IAM deal was voted down by less than 1% over concerns that AC would move IAM jobs offshore, and if AC doesn't intend to make such a move it will be easy enough to come up with language that IAM members will be able to ratify. How could any thinking ACPA-, CUPE- or CAW-represented employee even contemplate a NO vote? There is no money. Our own unions, having seen the books, have told us this. The government isn't going to bail us out, especially not if a CCAA comes as a result of our own choice to turn down extensions to our contracts. It isn't as if we're hard-done-by in the first place. People who work for other airlines in Canada don't receive anywhere near the salaries and benefits that most of us do. A 21-month status quo offer is generous under current business conditions. Anyone who thinks s/he'd do better elsewhere should go to that employer. Do not paint all of us with that same brush!!!!!! I am a 25 year AME making $70000 mean while AME's at Trans AT, WestJet, and a number of others are well into the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 As a taxpayer, I will certainly be asked to contribute. The feds are already promising loans. I have a quarter million Aeroplan miles which isn't much, but it means I do have a tangential stake. I know people at the airline, and don't wish for them to lose their jobs based on emotion rather than reason. And I don't want to see Canada deprived of a scheduled intercontinental airline, especially at this terrible economic juncture, so as a patriot I have a stake. Air Canada plays a larger social role in this country - it doesn't exist to give Mitch a job or you a pension. Those are happy byproducts of its raison d'etre, which is to fly people and cargo to/from and within Canada. I just came back from dealing with the executive suite at the negots table, I am starting to believe it may be time to put this dog out of its misery. They are in full dictatorship mode and have made it clear that they do not give a SHITE about any of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Do not paint all of us with that same brush!!!!!! I am a 25 year AME making $70000 mean while AME's at Trans AT, WestJet, and a number of others are well into the 80's. And you haven't changed employers? Why? Is it the pension and other perks that the others don't offer? 25 and earning 70,000.00 is pretty good though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 He's not a 25 year old AME but rather an AME with 25 years of service (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 And you haven't changed employers? Why? Is it the pension and other perks that the others don't offer? 25 and earning 70,000.00 is pretty good though. I am a 25years of service employee. If I was younger,GONE!!!! Now 48 and looking towards retirement and doing some consulting as an engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 He's not a 25 year old AME but rather an AME with 25 years of service (I think). My Bad but 70,000.00 a year is too bad for any age though. However based on the 80,000.00 a year at other carriers it appears the only truth is that "healthy companies" can afford to pay more than those who are in "intensive care". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 My Bad but 70,000.00 a year is too bad for any age though. However based on the 80,000.00 a year at other carriers it appears the only truth is that "healthy companies" can afford to pay more than those who are in "intensive care". Yes, good, now continue with that train of thought and ask yourself why is AC in intensive care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Rattler, if Robert is making that much he must be at the very tiptop of the scale (where I can't get because I'm second hand goods), and maybe a bit of overtime....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 My Bad but 70,000.00 a year is too bad for any age though. However based on the 80,000.00 a year at other carriers it appears the only truth is that "healthy companies" can afford to pay more than those who are in "intensive care". I am not saying it is, but in 21 months, what will the TransAt and WestJet wages be then while I am still sitting at 70, my guess would be 85, so now I have a 15k gap to fill, added to that, the company trying to attract new staff, AC is having a major problem now finding staffing with this gap imagine when it grows even larger. Basic enonomics, supply and demand, the demand has exceeded the supply so get ready to pay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Rattler, if Robert is making that much he must be at the very tiptop of the scale (where I can't get because I'm second hand goods), and maybe a bit of overtime....? Mitch!!!! You are making the same as I am!!!!!! maybe more as I think you have 4 endorsments to my 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 My Bad but 70,000.00 a year is too bad for any age though. However based on the 80,000.00 a year at other carriers it appears the only truth is that "healthy companies" can afford to pay more than those who are in "intensive care". Are you for real? You can make that driving rigs at mine sites up north. Most earn over 90K with overtime and these are unskilled positions. 70K for any skilled position especially with the responsibility that they (AME's) have is pathetic. I would say a 25 year AME should be making 90-100K to attract and keep this experience. WS salaries would also be higher if it wasn't for the low salaries at AC...IMO. Nope, AC has hit bottom and there isn't anything left for the employees to give! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Mitch!!!! You are making the same as I am!!!!!! maybe more as I think you have 4 endorsments to my 3 Ok, ...I stand corrected. Sorry Robert. ... I haven't worked it out in a while. Thanks handyman. You're quite right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Ok, ...I stand corrected. Sorry Robert. ... I haven't worked it out in a while. Thanks handyman. You're quite right. No worries Mitch, I still think you're cute I do agree with you that our wages need to rise to keep up with the market demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 WS salaries would also be higher if it wasn't for the low salaries at AC...IMO. Why is that so? Which airline is more profitable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13820 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 WestJet calculates it's salaries on what other airlines pay. So any raises at other airlines increase WestJet's. And in a sense a pay freeze at AC will hinder WJ's advancement also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Seeker check your PM's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I believe a good scale for skilled workers is to compare Canadian Military Officer Salaries. A Captain, which would be approx a 5-10 year worker STARTS from 68K-73K. The first number is for a non-pilot Officer and the second is for a Pilot. A Major, would represent a 15-25 year skilled worker earns a STARTING salary of 92K-104K. These are great scales of comparison I believe for AME's to strive for. Skeptics might say that AME's are NCM's in the Military and therefore should be compared with NCM salaries. I don't agree as a Military tech is not the same as a civilian AME. But, regardless, the NCM salary would look like this for a 10 year/25 year typical rank. 10 year Sergeant specialist starts at 71K 25 year Master Warrant Officer starts at 80K All of these salaries have built in incremental increases on a yearly basis on top of any salary increase negotiated and only represent the bottom of the Rank Pay Scale! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Which airline is more profitable? the one who does not have the inverted corporate pyramid, the one that does not have ponzi scheming executives, the one that does not display complete vitrial towards its employees, the one that did not develop and foster an US AGAINST THEM culture, the one that did not have a CEO who publicly stated that the airlines woes were the FAULT OF THE UNIONS. The one that did not have a CEO who stated, THEY ARE JUST EMPLOYEES. Shall I continue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Why is that so? Which airline is more profitable? dagger, you have to go back to management school! Happy employees are efficient employees, efficiency reduces costs, increases profits and makes life better for everyone. Unhappy employees will suck the life out of any company! There, that will be 50 bucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I believe a good scale for skilled workers is to compare Canadian Military Officer Salaries. A Captain, which would be approx a 5-10 year worker STARTS from 68K-73K. The first number is for a non-pilot Officer and the second is for a Pilot. A Major, would represent a 15-25 year skilled worker earns a STARTING salary of 92K-104K. These are great scales of comparison I believe for AME's to strive for. Skeptics might say that AME's are NCM's in the Military and therefore should be compared with NCM salaries. I don't agree as a Military tech is not the same as a civilian AME. But, regardless, the NCM salary would look like this for a 10 year/25 year typical rank. 10 year Sergeant specialist starts at 71K 25 year Master Warrant Officer starts at 80K All of these salaries have built in incremental increases on a yearly basis on top of any salary increase negotiated and only represent the bottom of the Rank Pay Scale! Does everyone in forces attain those ranks after the years of service quoted? In other words what % of those in each age group make the rank quoted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Does everyone in forces attain those ranks after the years of service quoted? In other words what % of those in each age group make the rank quoted? Good question... From my experience, 99.9% will attain the rank of Captain in less than 10 years and for those that remain in the service, 50% will attain the rank of Major after 20 years. Politics is a factor in attaining the Major and above ranks. For NCM's it would be similar with a hard working individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Does everyone in forces attain those ranks after the years of service quoted? In other words what % of those in each age group make the rank quoted? Please clarify!!!!!!! If you are suggesting that everyone becomes an AME in maintenance, guess again. Only those who complete the TC EXAMS as well as endorsments. There AT aircraft techs, a non licensed maintenance person as well as mechs again non licensed, all of which we as AME's must sign off on their work after the task is completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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