FA@AC Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Duncan Dee claims that starting salaries for Pilots in the USA are roughly equal to those in Canada. That isn't even close to accurate, is it? (Claim made towards the end of his interview). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 33 minutes ago, Turbofan said: I don’t understand the question. i don’t believe WJ has 787-9’s. Pretty sure it is the lighter 787-8. The only completely comparable aircraft would be the 737. WJ makes about 30% more. I believe about 305 next year. AC’s wage from 2003 inflation adjusted to today about 335-340. United pays 345USD. Our pay scales all top out at 12 years. There is no difference in pay between me, 20 plus years and someone who has been at AC 12 years. A 10 year CA is almost at the top of the pay scale. That pilot is very close in comparison to someone at 20 or 30 YOS. Is that the info you are looking for? Aircraft Information Mark: C-FAJA Common Name: Boeing Model Name: 787-9 Serial No.: 64982 Basis for Eligibility for Registration: CAR Standard 507.02, 507.03 - Type Certificate - A217 Category: Aeroplane Engine: 2, Turbo Fan Max Take-Off Weight: 254011.73 kg 24 Bit Address: Bin=1100000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 4 minutes ago, Turbofan said: Maybe rephrase the question Mr lawyer. Yes I can tell you are up to something. I just don’t know what. "Mr.Lawyer"???? Were we actually in a courtroom, you'd be directed to answer the question. But we are not in a courtroom and if you object to any question you need only do as you have....ignore it! Lol There is no recourse. I don't believe that "apples to apples", a WJ pilot earns 30% more than an AC pilot. I'm talking about a 10 year pilot on a 737 at WJ compared to a 10 year pilot on an AC 737. If I'm wrong, I have no qualms about being corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Upperdeck, Do you agree that comparing a 20 year WJ pilot left seat on a 737 to a 10 year AC pilot is misleading?" This question has me dumbfounded. You clearly don’t understand how we get paid. As I said to ACFA. We top out at 12 years. 12 years is the same as 15 years, 20 years, 25 years, 30 years or 35 years. 10 years is almost top of the pay scale. So a 20 year WJ 737 CA is very comparable to a 10 year AC pilot. By the way AC has 737 pilots who have been at AC longer than WJ has existed. They get paid. You guessed it year 12 pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 11 minutes ago, FA@AC said: Duncan Dee claims that starting salaries for Pilots in the USA are roughly equal to those in Canada. That isn't even close to accurate, is it? (Claim made towards the end of his interview). Actually it’s all deliberately wrong. He overstates what a 777 CA makes at AC and then understates what a 777CA makes in the US in effort to make the difference appear smaller. The starting salary is straight up BS. I will try and find a couple of numbers for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 On 9/9/2024 at 6:56 PM, UpperDeck said: Referencing the impact of a "withdrawal of services" one should always remember the extent of the market within 200 miles of a US airport which affords access to all of AC's market excluding Canada. As I recall, WJ a few months ago reduced or eliminated various routes to the East. Coincidence? Hmmm! I suggest that WJ does in fact have resources to re-focus on the East quickly with significant reward in the event of a disruption of AC service. I don't believe the government will intervene and I also believe that AC are fully prepared for this strike. I anticipate that all other employee groups will be soon be looking for UIC benefits. Bottom line....pilots at the bottom of the list will be offered ( and have been offered) higher income. Those much higher on the list? Take that 30% increase OVER THE LIFE OF THE CONTRACT....and run. And by the way....if we move into a recession will you agree to a pay reduction equal to any reduction in the annual CPI? Addendum.....I admit I am NOT fully informed and I have NO skin in the game. These are simply unsolicited ramblings from the bleachers. AC and WJ divided the country due to a shortage of pilots. Neither could maintain a full route schedule with the available pilot staff levels. So they thinned the routes west and east to ease the strain. Not too hard to see. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Turbofan said: Actually it’s all deliberately wrong. He overstates what a 777 CA makes at AC and then understates what a 777CA makes in the US in effort to make the difference appear smaller. No need to find numbers since I'm happy to take your word for it, but thanks. Just astonished that he actually made the claim. He posts all day long on Twitter (knows everything). Not sure if ALPA would consider it worthwhile correcting him, but I'd get a chuckle if his income from appearing as an "expert" on the industry took a hit if they did. Edited September 12 by FA@AC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 2023 starting hourly pay AC year 1 $65/hour CAD AC year 2 $71/hour CAD AC year 3 81/hour CAD AC year 4 90/hour CAD Delta 737 FO DELTA YEAR 1 108/hour USD DELTA YEAR 2 166/hour USD DELTA Year 3 194/hour USD Delta Year 4 199/hour USD. If you are not in the industry. Multiply the hourly rate by 80hours and then 12 months to get yearly. 80 is a good ballpark number. The average range is probably 78-82 hours a month. But it’s still not a guarantee. A220 pilots are low hours at the moment because of the Pratt engine issues. They have been consistently in the 72 hour range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 39 minutes ago, Malcolm said: Aircraft Information Mark: C-FAJA Common Name: Boeing Model Name: 787-9 Serial No.: 64982 Basis for Eligibility for Registration: CAR Standard 507.02, 507.03 - Type Certificate - A217 Category: Aeroplane Engine: 2, Turbo Fan Max Take-Off Weight: 254011.73 kg 24 Bit Address: Bin=1100000000 Thanks Malcom, I will take a closer look the next time I pass by one. It must be the paint job that makes them look the smaller size to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airband Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Jesse Kline: An Air Canada strike will be devastating. Blame Ottawa Decades of protecting domestic airlines have given them far too much power Thu Sep 12, 2024 - National Post by Jesse Kline Quote 'Canadians are witnessing the drawbacks of government policy designed to coddle domestic industries and protect them from foreign competition.' The mechanics strike at the end of June only lasted a few days, but managed to disrupt the travel plans of an estimated 110,000 people. At the Calgary International Airport, over 40 per cent of incoming and outgoing flights were cancelled. And if you think that was bad, the looming Air Canada pilots strike will be orders of magnitude worse. Late last month, the Air Line Pilots Association voted to approve a strike mandate that could see 5,200 pilots walk off the job as early as Sunday if a last-minute deal cannot be reached. This will ground 670 flights a day, which typically serve more than 110,000 passengers. Coming on the heels of a short-lived but highly disruptive strike at Canada’s two major railway companies, Canadians are witnessing the drawbacks of government policy designed to coddle domestic industries and protect them from foreign competition. For decades, Canadians have had to contend with an airline duopoly, with Air Canada and either Canadian Airlines or WestJet controlling the vast majority of the market due to government rules that prevent foreign carriers from operating domestic flights and foreign investors from backing Canadian airlines with serious money. The situation has improved somewhat in recent years, with the federal government increasing the foreign ownership limit to 49 per cent, from the previous 25, in 2018, and a number of upstart discount airlines providing competition for the country’s two major carriers. Despite these developments, however, WestJet and Air Canada still control over 70 per cent of the market and have used their advantage to either buy up smaller carriers, such as Sunwing, or drive them out of business, as happened with Lynx Air. This is only possible because start-ups have limited resources and often cannot compete with companies that have the ability to take a loss on flights in order to force new competitors out of business. The situation would be much different if large carriers from elsewhere in the world were allowed fly domestic routes. In Europe, for example, any airline that’s allowed to operate within the European Union can pick up and drop off passengers within any member state, a 1990s-era reform that led to a 120 per cent increase in flights within the EU and a 400 per cent increase in the number of routes serviced by at least two carriers between 1992 and 2008, according to the European Commission. The United States also has much more competitive air-travel sector, with four carriers controlling around 78 per cent of the market, rather than two. Canada may not have the population or the geography to support as many airlines, but there’s no good reason why we shouldn’t be able to take advantage of the robust industry south of the border to drive down prices and expand service here at home. If Air Canada pilots do go on strike, foreign airlines will be able to pick up some of the slack on overseas flights, but people looking to fly within the country will be left holding the proverbial luggage. None of this is news to Ottawa. At the end of July, the Competition Bureau launched an examination of the air-travel sector, noting that the market is highly concentrated, air travel is expensive and new airlines face significant barriers to entry. “Increasing competition,” the bureau notes, “would save Canadians money, make accessing flights easier and improve the quality of services offered across the country.” Indeed it would. But do we really need a bunch of bureaucrats taking a year to draft a report to tell us what we already know? Namely that Canada would have a much more competitive marketplace if it allowed international carriers to compete on domestic routes, did away with foreign ownership limits and took concrete steps to reduce airport fees by phasing out the $6.5 billion that airports pay to Ottawa in rent every year and finding efficiencies through privatization. There’s not much that can, or should, be done at this point to mitigate the damage caused by a potential pilots strike. But if the federal government is serious about upholding labour rights and reducing the cost of living, it should stop protecting airlines that don’t seem to give a lick about their customers from foreign competition and set the skies free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 13 hours ago, Turbofan said: Upperdeck, Do you agree that comparing a 20 year WJ pilot left seat on a 737 to a 10 year AC pilot is misleading?" This question has me dumbfounded. You clearly don’t understand how we get paid. As I said to ACFA. We top out at 12 years. 12 years is the same as 15 years, 20 years, 25 years, 30 years or 35 years. 10 years is almost top of the pay scale. So a 20 year WJ 737 CA is very comparable to a 10 year AC pilot. By the way AC has 737 pilots who have been at AC longer than WJ has existed. They get paid. You guessed it year 12 pay. I defer to your experience-based knowledge but I suggest that an argument is more compelling when it is not based solely on "worst case" scenarios. You have made it very clear that 1) you consider US pay scales relevant to current AC demands; and, 2) the 2003 date for calculations is fundamental to "your" position. I have information regarding 1990 doh AC pilots' annual income. Typically, this "vintage" pilot earned $98,000 in 1997; $145,000 in 2001; $171,000 in 2003; and, $174,000 in 2007. Of course, there are some who made less and others somewhat ( not a lot) more. I have a 1986 doh who earned $132,000 in 1997; $211,000 in 2001; $182,000 in 2003; and, $244,000 in 2007. Clearly, there are a number of variables and I know it has been discussed on this forum many times before....the choices between lifestyle and maximizing income. My point is simply that choosing the lowest pay rate and choosing 2003 to support claims is somewhat misleading and arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Why muddy the water like this? Quote First...forgive me for referencing the cost of getting an APL. That's irrelevant. At the end of the day...regardless of occupation...the cost of "entry" is what it is. We each make our own choice. At one point the cost of qualifying was important to you, when you thought pilots were overstating it. Now that the true costs are validated, its irrelevant. It is fundamentally relevant. Pilots start deep in the hole, earn very little at the bottom of whatever seniority list they join and hope one day it will be worth it. In the case of Air Canada, the 'worth it' line kept getting moved further down field. Quote Can we agree that new hires in 2004 are mortgage free and making 275-325K if desired? No, we can't! This is just the casual insertion of misinformation. Fundamentals again - the career phase where a pilot might earn over $200K is pretty late. Being there and having paid off all of the accumulated debt from the lean years? Rare. In order to earn like that, a pilot with the current work rules ends up making some choices that are corrosive to family, partnerships and in some cases personal health - which would invalidate your claim another way. I recommend you read some articles about the increasing trend among pilots to refuse command upgrades. The situation is as simple as this: For a decade the airline kept pilot compensation underwater with the help of broken union leadership. People smart enough to run an airline knew the economic trench they were digging there. To now claim the union demands as excessive, when most of it is simply recovery to a flat curve, is beyond disingenuous. But then, we continue in the 'post truth era'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Talking about upfront costs: https://mdm.ca/learn/medical-school-cost-calculator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 Air Canada says government should be ready to prevent pilots from striking Air Canada says government should be ready to prevent pilots from striking | CTV News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 42 minutes ago, UpperDeck said: Clearly, there are a number of variables and I know it has been discussed on this forum many times before....the choices between lifestyle and maximizing income. My point is simply that choosing the lowest pay rate and choosing 2003 to support claims is somewhat misleading and arbitrary. Which is why the only way to compare properly is the hourly pay grid and not an individual who made choices within that grid The pay grid is based on Type, Seat and YOS 1-12. You have to compare apples to apples within that pay grid. I already supplied you one such example. I will do it again. This is starting to go in circles. This is my last attempt. I get the impression you simply believe we are full of BS and you are determined to find where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 22 minutes ago, Malcolm said: Air Canada says government should be ready to prevent pilots from striking Air Canada says government should be ready to prevent pilots from striking | CTV News That article doesn’t do what Air Canada wants justice. They want the Government to intervene in advance of a strike. Not at the strike deadline, rather days in advance. They are requesting a 2012 repeat at the very first employee group to come up for negotiations as the 10 year deals start to expire. Is the government going to have AC’s back through all employee groups? In advance? Again? It won’t stick in court. At least for rail the government can try to argue they didn’t interfere in the unions right to strike. They were on strike before intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 I think there will be a strike (or lockout) and it will last a while. I haven't made up my mind what "a while" is, but I suspect more than a few members of all bargaining units will wait "a while" before being recalled once there is a settlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 37 minutes ago, dagger said: I think there will be a strike (or lockout) and it will last a while. I haven't made up my mind what "a while" is, but I suspect more than a few members of all bargaining units will wait "a while" before being recalled once there is a settlement. The Delta between todays WJ wages and AC old 2003 wages adjusted for inflation is not as large as AC is making it out to be. It seems to have been lost on everyone that WJ already makes 30% more than we do as it stands today. In fact the distance we are trying to move the bar, is far less than what the WJ pilots managed to accomplish. Rousseau has said repeatedly that WJ should be our comparator. I think the company is doing its best to exaggerate what we are looking for in an attempt to keep us at WJ wages and no more. All that destruction over the real difference at the negotiating table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/air-transat-ceo-blasts-air-canada-request-to-government-to-prevent-pilot-strike/159948.article Air Transat CEO blasts Air Canada request to government to prevent pilot strike I was wondering when this was going to start. So why should AC get preferred treatment dealing with their employees in a competitive environment. Yet Transat and WestJet have no such luxury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 hour ago, dagger said: I think there will be a strike (or lockout) and it will last a while. I haven't made up my mind what "a while" is, but I suspect more than a few members of all bargaining units will wait "a while" before being recalled once there is a settlement. I agree and of course it will also depend upon the ability of other carriers to take up the slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 31 minutes ago, Turbofan said: https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/air-transat-ceo-blasts-air-canada-request-to-government-to-prevent-pilot-strike/159948.article Air Transat CEO blasts Air Canada request to government to prevent pilot strike I was wondering when this was going to start. So why should AC get preferred treatment dealing with their employees in a competitive environment. Yet Transat and WestJet have no such luxury? Simply because of impact on the voting public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 I disagree with both of ya One of two things will play out. 1)The government intervenes and there is no strike. 2)AC finally gives up hope the government will save them and they cut a deal. No strike. The gulf between the two is not that large. At least not as large as the company is trying to portray in an effort to invite intervention. But just a guess. You never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 2 hours ago, Vsplat said: Why muddy the water like this? At one point the cost of qualifying was important to you, when you thought pilots were overstating it. Now that the true costs are validated, its irrelevant. It is fundamentally relevant. Pilots start deep in the hole, earn very little at the bottom of whatever seniority list they join and hope one day it will be worth it. In the case of Air Canada, the 'worth it' line kept getting moved further down field. No, we can't! This is just the casual insertion of misinformation. Fundamentals again - the career phase where a pilot might earn over $200K is pretty late. Being there and having paid off all of the accumulated debt from the lean years? Rare. In order to earn like that, a pilot with the current work rules ends up making some choices that are corrosive to family, partnerships and in some cases personal health - which would invalidate your claim another way. Vsplat..... Simply put....you are incorrect in your assumption I backed off on costing because I was corrected. I gave an example of an individual who chose the military as a pathway. I personally am acquainted with pilots who attended Embry in Florida and know many others who moved to major commercial gradually and at far less cost than quoted here. I also gave an example of current pay for a newly licensed lawyer....$42,000. The cost of just tuition....$75,000. And that's after university!! Malcolm has provided the cost of medical school. I discontinued that commentary because I felt it served little purpose. One makes choices and hopefully they are informed choices....you know what it will cost and you judge for yourself whether the reward justifies the effort and expense. I readily concede that housing costs are NOW astronomical. They weren't. Hence my suggestion that wage increases should be more focussed on more junior pilots who are the ones most impacted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 2 hours ago, Turbofan said: Which is why the only way to compare properly is the hourly pay grid and not an individual who made choices within that grid The pay grid is based on Type, Seat and YOS 1-12. You have to compare apples to apples within that pay grid. I already supplied you one such example. I will do it again. This is starting to go in circles. This is my last attempt. I get the impression you simply believe we are full of BS and you are determined to find where it is. Turbo....I hope I am seen to have been respectful throughout. I wear t-shirts....nothing up my sleeve!! I actually do understand the pay progressions and position and equipment movement based on seniority. As simply a member of the public and nothing more, I react to the rejection of a 30% wage increase proposal ( over 4 years) as "surprising" and the promise of a strike unless the company significantly increases that offer disappointing. My questions of you had no ulterior motive and I agree....you have been unambiguous in your attempts to educate me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 As Air Canada pilots strike looms, NDP says it will ‘never’ support back-to-work bill: Singh (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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