blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I hope this pilot is okay. Is this sort of thing happening more often in flight decks or is it just more easily reported? Do today's roster/scheduling programs need an adjustment to include more human factor elements such as......sleep? https://www.aeroinside.com/item/9376/canada-rouge-a319-at-toronto-on-apr-3rd-2017-pilot-incapacitated?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=20170413 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, blues deville said: I hope this pilot is okay. Is this sort of thing happening more often in flight decks or is it just more easily reported? Do today's roster/scheduling programs need an adjustment to include more human factor elements such as......sleep? https://www.aeroinside.com/item/9376/canada-rouge-a319-at-toronto-on-apr-3rd-2017-pilot-incapacitated?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=20170413 Just curious, why would you assume the pilot fell asleep when everything I've read says he lost consciousness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 2 hours ago, seeker said: Just curious, why would you assume the pilot fell asleep when everything I've read says he lost consciousness? No assumptions here. What I was trying to suggest is that perhaps extreme fatigue is becoming a serious issue. It's something that we all work around in all sorts of jobs. However flying has the added bonus of jet lag and lots of time away from a comfortable bed. I've had guys nod off without warning quite often but usually in cruise. One FO during his ETOPs line check years ago. I though perhaps he hadn't napped enough before the late night crossing however he was later diagnosed as narcoleptic. And unfortunately lost his job. As mentioned initially, I hope this pilot is alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Personally, I would find it difficult for a pilot to " nod off " when on FINAL APPROACH, no matter how weary he was... I think all of us have been tired after a long flight but the adrenaline rush during an approach would keep even the most tired of us awake.. Hopefully the youngster is not seriously ill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, Kip Powick said: Personally, I would find it difficult for a pilot to " nod off " when on FINAL APPROACH, no matter how weary he was... I think all of us have been tired after a long flight but the adrenaline rush during an approach would keep even the most tired of us awake.. Hopefully the youngster is not seriously ill. I always felt the same way but it happened to me once. My eyes were open the whole time, but I wasn't "there". It was a typical all night crossing going to Venice, I was reasonably well rested and even took a controlled rest nap during the flight (as did my colleague). We were heading directly into the rising sun and I just clocked out. I missed two calls from ATC to turn for the ILS intercept and that's when the guy beside me knew I was gone. I came to just inside the FAF and did the PNF duties the rest of the way. BTW, the thread title is wrong. It's an A319, no "wheel". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 25 minutes ago, blues deville said: No assumptions here. ... The title of the thread says 'asleep at the wheel' and your first statement is about 'this sort of thing' when referencing the event. Maybe not your intent, but it sure looks to me as if you have assumed this was a fatigue event. My 'assumption' is just the opposite. This has the hall marks of something acute. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, J.O. said: BTW, the thread title is wrong. It's an A319, no "wheel". Ha ha. Very good. Sounds like you're wide awake this morning! 11 minutes ago, Vsplat said: The title of the thread says 'asleep at the wheel' and your first statement is about 'this sort of thing' when referencing the event. Maybe not your intent, but it sure looks to me as if you have assumed this was a fatigue event. My 'assumption' is just the opposite. This has the hall marks of something acute. Vs Well let's work try to around my poorly worded thread title and focus on the fatigue issue which may be a part of this or several other similar recent events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I don't think we are on the same page. Unless you are privy to something not stated in the report, there is no indication as to cause. All we know is that there was a loss of consciousness short final. Clearly unexpected. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would commence an approach if they did not feel up to it. There would have been a transfer of control in that case. If you want to start a generic discussion about fatigue, fill your boots. But speculating and connecting dots that aren't there in this case is not helpful IMO. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, Vsplat said: I don't think we are on the same page. Unless you are privy to something not stated in the report, there is no indication as to cause. All we know is that there was a loss of consciousness short final. Clearly unexpected. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would commence an approach if they did not feel up to it. There would have been a transfer of control in that case. If you want to start a generic discussion about fatigue, fill your boots. But speculating and connecting dots that aren't there in this case is not helpful IMO. Vs As politely as can type this, I haven't asked you to be on the same page. I've posted a very brief report regarding this flight and used a commonly known phrase (inaccurate.....thank you JO ) to start a discussion not a debate. So unless you have more information it's not unreasonable for me to suggest there are issues with pilots schedules. If you've never felt fatigued or sleepy when flying then you're in a very special and lucky group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 Thread title changed. First line of post remains the same clear statement. "Is this sort of thing happening more often in flight decks or is it just more easily reported?" blues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 26 minutes ago, blues deville said: Thread title changed. First line of post remains the same clear statement. "Is this sort of thing happening more often in flight decks or is it just more easily reported?" blues How did you change the thread title? I didn't think we could edit that. Do you have special powers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, conehead said: How did you change the thread title? I didn't think we could edit that. Do you have special powers? Edit prompt opened the entire first post including thread title or at least it did this time. Thank goodness as it wasn't well received. Blues deluxe tells me often that I'm special but not always in the good way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverminds Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 There is no "jet lag" on a Florida- Toronto flight. It's the same time zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 2 hours ago, neverminds said: There is no "jet lag" on a Florida- Toronto flight. It's the same time zone Oh please tell more about time zones. I'm all ears. My logbook is full of MCO, PIE, FLL, MIA, & RSW turns. The alarm was usually set for 0230. 0430 check-in. 0600 dep. Was much younger then but with two young kids occasionally waking me up, sometimes the sleeps were minimal. After that early start I was usually fast asleep after I got home. And jet lag? There could be from the previous day. SFO. YVR. Or maybe that young Rouge FO has little ones too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Falling asleep unexpectedly is a form of 'lost consciousness' as far as I know? Anyway, I think it was very big of JO to admit to same; it happens far more frequently than anyone would care to admit, or is reported on officially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, blues deville said: And jet lag? There could be from the previous day. SFO. YVR. Or maybe that young Rouge FO has little too. Or we could just stick to the facts - Oh yes, that is where this all started. There are none released except what was in the report. Nothing about fatigue, the status of kids in the home, or whether in fact the Rouge FO was' young', or for that matter who was flying. We don't even know if the sufferer of the medical event was the younger or older of the crew. Instead of this ever expanding circle of assumption to try and justify a completely unsupported theory, why not just back up and let the crew work with their support team, and let the investigators do their thing? That strikes me as the minimum professional respect we can offer this crew, one of which may, for all we know, still be ill. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 59 minutes ago, Vsplat said: Or we could just stick to the facts - Oh yes, that is where this all started. There are none released except what was in the report. Nothing about fatigue, the status of kids in the home, or whether in fact the Rouge FO was' young', or for that matter who was flying. We don't even know if the sufferer of the medical event was the younger or older of the crew. Instead of this ever expanding circle of assumption to try and justify a completely unsupported theory, why not just back up and let the crew work with their support team, and let the investigators do their thing? That strikes me as the minimum professional respect we can offer this crew, one of which may, for all we know, still be ill. Vs Stick to the facts? Rather than you focusing on the same point repeatly, how about re-reading my initial post. Here it is again just for you. I hope this pilot is okay. Is this sort of thing happening more often in flight decks or is it just more easily reported? Do today's roster/scheduling programs need an adjustment to include more human factor elements such as......sleep? My question as you can clearly see "is this sort of thing....". That is, are more pilots having issues or is it just easier to monitor all aspects of daily flights (ATC live, Flight Tracker, etc) via internet and social media? I've changed the thread title. This report is not a secret. It's now news. So it will be discussed by people in this business. I am a repeat customer of AC & ACrouge. So are members of my family. This incident is a serious event and I asked a simple question with regards to pilots and fatigue. I am done. I hope you are too. blues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, DEFCON said: Falling asleep unexpectedly is a form of 'lost consciousness' as far as I know? Anyway, I think it was very big of JO to admit to same; it happens far more frequently than anyone would care to admit, or is reported on officially. Good point. But don't tell vsplat Also, if you know JO you wouldn't expect anything less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 We can be done any time you want. But you did not ask a question just about pilots and fatigue. You linked an acute incapacitation event to something else and I objected. The reason my point hasn't changed, is because it IS my point. If you want to talk about fatigue, you can. What I object to is leveraging an incapacitation event to talk about it, when we have nothing to suggest a relationship. I can read. There is no need to be condescending or repeat a post 'just for' me. But for the record, you will know that your original post is not all you said on the matter. I quoted you as you continued to add context that simply was not in the report. I won't insult you by repeating the quotes, I am sure you can read, too. The report is not secret. It is also not (yet at least) about fatigue. It should come as no surprise to you, reading and all, that I think speculation like this has to be done carefully as it is so often wrong. But certainly, done is as good as this is going to get. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 8 hours ago, Vsplat said: The title of the thread says 'asleep at the wheel' and your first statement is about 'this sort of thing' when referencing the event. Maybe not your intent, but it sure looks to me as if you have assumed this was a fatigue event. My 'assumption' is just the opposite. This has the hall marks of something acute. Vs Reviewing to see how this thread has headed for the ditch. Your words "Maybe not your intent, but it sure looks to me as if you have assumed this was a fatigue event." It sure looks to me that your interpretation of my one part of my post is the basis of your ongoing argument. You haven't read the second line even after I re-posted it (for easier review, no other reason) but instead continue to focus your comments on the one thought. There seems to be more incidents of pilot incapacitation and it's being reported in various media. A valid topic for discussion on a airline employee forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, blues deville said: I am done. I hope you are too. blues It would have been better had you taken your own advice. You don't know what anyone else does or does not read. This is just getting silly.. You don't agree, fine. But to portray the reason as some sort of defect on the other person's part is, well, odd. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 Again, your interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 OK....Guys ............................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted April 14, 2017 Author Share Posted April 14, 2017 17 minutes ago, Kip Powick said: OK....Guys ............................................. We did. About 4 hours ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 The article says there were 134 people on the 319. How do you go about squeezing that many bodies into that airframe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.