Fido Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Following the end game of funelling money to a very select group of " One Percenters." Who do you mean by the 'One Percenters'. B777 Captains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 That's them Fido - the Triple 7 Captain that earns what a WJ 737 Captain earns. Fundamental difference being, "we" financially support the layers of useless management and the overpaid unskilled labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mo32a Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Well American Airlines had over 20,000 applications for 1500 flight attendant jobs paying $28,000 yearly.Delta had a similar response to their requirement for 200 new hires.A lot of those accepted had college/university degrees and spoke multiple languages.So it is not just pilots "racing to the bottom." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
internet Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 The free market is a b!tch isn't it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 When the Feds intervene in the 'free market' as in the recent AC examples; how free is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dork Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Very good post Rich and right on the money...or lack thereof...like a Ruse....Dork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankly Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 That's them Fido - the Triple 7 Captain that earns what a WJ 737 Captain earns. What airline has 777 captains that make the same as WJ 737 captains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Well American Airlines had over 20,000 applications for 1500 flight attendant jobs paying $28,000 yearly.Delta had a similar response to their requirement for 200 new hires.A lot of those accepted had college/university degrees and spoke multiple languages.So it is not just pilots "racing to the bottom."To me, that's a good indicator of the state of the economy. There's a lot of people out there that are desparate for a job. Gotta put groceries on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 What airline has 777 captains that make the same as WJ 737 captains?Pension aside, a WJ 737 Captain earns more than an AC 777 Captain. Considering the precarious condition of the AC Pension Plan, a hockey sock of cold hard cash is looking like a preferable route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankly Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 If you're going to put pensions aside, shouldn't you put stock options aside also for a fair comparison? How does it look then? AC's LCC 319 wage scales were based on WJ 737 pay. Not exactly 777 pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 As an aside, I do find it interesting that ACPA allowed their members to bid for the Rouge positions. This seems somewhat hypocritical for a group that continues to remind us about the "race to the bottom". If the AC pilots won't take a stand in this country, who will? Rich: Don't underestimate how divided and dysfunctional ACPA is. There are Pilots, in positions of influence, that are huge supporters of the LWC (Low Wage Carrier.) I will leave that to you to guess their motivation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 If you're going to put pensions aside, shouldn't you put stock options aside also for a fair comparison? How does it look then?AC's LCC 319 wage scales were based on WJ 737 pay. Not exactly 777 pay.It isn't an easy debate, the LWC 319 (in theory) is the WJ pay, in hard terms it isn't even close. With the stroke of a pen, the AC Pilots lost Pension Indexation, which was monumental. When (and where) is the next hit, with the plan sitting at a 4.5 Billion Dollar deficit? We already got hit with increased contributions under the GIC (Government Imposed Contract.) By comparison the WJ Pilots have been able to pocket the money, generating some very impressive T4's....and good on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankly Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Yep, good on em. Maybe next time around, ACPA should ask for Westjet pay and Westjet stock options, and no pensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 “Does government intervention prevent anyone who is dissatisfied with their job from going elsewhere? A "free market" is more than contract negotiations and pay scales. It REQUIRES that those who are dissatisfied alter their circumstances. If nobody leaves, the folks in the C-suite know they can lower the T&Cs next time.”RichThe AC case in discussion is not an example of a ‘free’ market economy at work. In fact, AC never was an example of a free market of any kind at work, regardless.Labour unions, labour law and labour relations in general are themselves contrary to the notion of a free market. Leaving ones employment for greener pastures because of personal dissatisfaction with ones present circumstances does not make you a member of the free market either. "Altering" one's circumstance was supposed to be undertaken in accordance with the existing law of the land; contract negotiations and all its attendant machinations.The AC situation began with AC & its unions employing the rules of labour law to guide their negotiation activities. At that time the negotiations may have been considered the product of a ‘social’ market economy, but with Big-brother’s intervention and its changes to the rules of play, AC’s labour relations became the functioning arm of a ‘controlled’ or ‘regulated’ marketplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 Or perhaps, both pilots are worth the same?Malcolm, I am sure you realize that ...................when some folks feel/think/espouse what their talent is worth they fail to realize that the difference between any airline Captain, be it a B747-400, a B-777, or a B737-800 is a 6 week course.... ....Unfortunately there are still many in the industry that do not feel that way..............perhaps in a few more decades they will.I will go to my grave trumpeting that all Captains, regardless of metal, be at the same pay level........but that will never "fly" in my lifetime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I laugh (dirisively) when WJ guys act like they invented "no pensions." What world are you guys living in where "no pension" is a point of pride? I see my pension deficit and raise you all your expired worthless stock options.Mark my words, AC will have options and profit share in the next contract. Cormark asset management just bought ACE's share of AC.B a few months ago and are the largest shareholder. It's coming, later, but it's coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Yep, good on em. Maybe next time around, ACPA should ask for Westjet pay and Westjet stock options, and no pensions. As opposed to some senior managers who have enjoyed both - and some pretty impressive golden parachutes to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Malcolm, I am sure you realize that ...................when some folks feel/think/espouse what their talent is worth they fail to realize that the difference between any airline Captain, be it a B747-400, a B-777, or a B737-800 is a 6 week course.... ....Unfortunately there are still many in the industry that do not feel that way..............perhaps in a few more decades they will.I will go to my grave trumpeting that all Captains, regardless of metal, be at the same pay level........but that will never "fly" in my lifetime Actually Kip, the notion of status pay has been in play with many Canadian airlines for years. The problem isn't precedent, it's the "we've always done it that way" approach to things that gets in the way of innovative change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankly Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 As opposed to some senior managers who have enjoyed both - and some pretty impressive golden parachutes to boot.Yep that's right. Line pilots don't get the same compensation as senior managers. I've never heard of an airline, or any company for that matter where employees get the same pay as executives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Yep that's right. Line pilots don't get the same compensation as senior managers. I've never heard of an airline, or any company for that matter where employees get the same pay as executives.The disparity is just a ....wee....bit out of line. Have a hard look at the drastic reduction in Pilot pay at AC, verse the MASSIVE increase in Executive Bonus's. The "One Percenters" are taking pretty damn good care of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 The "One Percenters" are taking pretty damn good care of themselves. Those damn 777 captains again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Ha...this thread is toast. Happy New Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Yep that's right. Line pilots don't get the same compensation as senior managers. I've never heard of an airline, or any company for that matter where employees get the same pay as executives.Absolutely, because without those senior managers, companies would be toast, whereas without the employees, companies would be ... that's right ... toast. No hypocrisy there, none at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mo32a Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 To me, that's a good indicator of the state of the economy. There's a lot of people out there that are desparate for a job. Gotta put groceries on the table.Exactly, that is why there is going to be no shortage of applicants for Rouge and Encore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAT3DUAL Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Any bets on how long it will take the successful applicants to begin complaining about their T&Cs?Any bets how long some of the low time new hires take their newly found, shiney jet endorsements/experience overseas.Rouge/WJE = jet school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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