Changing Education Paradigms

[Don Hudson]

I don't want to hijack the "Age-60" thread and the presently-inevitable and deplorable social changes that are gearing up to "permit our young people to work 'til one drops", but part of that important dialogue is a discussion about the present education model to which we all still subscribe. The question is more than political or economic, it is also cultural.

Most young people now know that getting a degree is no guarantee for finding work, a job, a career or a profession. Young people have shifted the market towards a more "socially-oriented" view of their world, dispensing with the raw consumerism of the 1950's-to-1990's in which the present generation, now retiring, were told that "their social responsibility was to spend, spend, spend" to keep growth high.

At today's wages, young people are unable to "spend, spend, spend", and indeed are not doing so. With fewer couples having children, (because they can't afford it), fewer are available to sustain the re-supply of the workforce and economic growth becomes a substantial challenge. Ergo, the pension crisis.

This thread is about education and the need for what may genuinely be called a paradigm shift in the old-fashioned meaning of the term.

Here is a short You-tube of Sir Ken Robinson on how education is changing:

Perhaps even more fascinating is Ken Robinson on TED Talks:

http://www.ted.com/t...creativity.html

(thanks for the correction Kip - Don)

[Kip Powick]

Interesting....Don and very informative.......

One question...where could I get one of those markers that change color at the whim of the animator ??

And finally...aren't you glad you are where you are at this time in your life??

Merry Christmas!!!

[Don Hudson]

Hi Kip...

Re, "And finally...aren't you glad you are where you are at this time in your life??"

Yes, I sure am, but like most here I think, I worry about our young'uns regarding the stability (but not necessarily the dominance) of western society, and state of social affairs and priorities they're growing into. We are a business-dominated society and I don't think that is healthy. In particular, I don't like young people being targets of marketing campaigns and given the opportunity would actually outlaw it. Politics and economics are what they are and are far, far less important than the former two, and refreshingly, I see young people beginning to sense this as they grow into the world they are inheriting. Robinson made an interesting observation when he said, If all the insects disappeared, all life on earth would disappear within 50 years but if we disappeared, life would flourish, (or somehting to that effect). Against such notions, the face of consumerism as we have been trained by the values of business, simply withers, for none of this is either natural or inevitable. Sobering thoughts regardless of what time of year it is, but not likely to distract the pressures to buy things.

A very Merry Christmas to you and Scuba02!!!

Don

[Specs]

No kids of my own but this is a subject I've had very strong feelings about for the last 15 years as I watch what's happening to the kids of my friends and families.

The US numbers on Ritalin are staggering. It's become SOP for the US system anytime a teacher can't cope with a particular kid. Literally, an entire industry has been built up around it. This for a drug that really has no quantitative physiological test. My own beliefs are in line with the speaker, overstimulation, but I might add that that has always been the case, just via different mediums through the ages, and as barbaric as the old ways sound, I've never met a kid who has suffered a lifelong emotional scarring from an occasional good smack in the principal's office. I might add that I don't thinks todays teachers have the same mettle as crotchety old Sister Mary or Mr King.

[Specs]

....it is not the teacher who has the final say regarding the drug (need) or has the child medicated..... :

Actually the teacher initiates it. If the kid is repeatedly dismissed from class or sent home, re-admittance is contingent upon a recommendation from the school psychologist. (It seems every school has at least one these days) Guess what the school psychologist, on every single case that I've seen, recommends? It's ridiculous. Middle class 'perfect' kids just out of college get teaching jobs but can't handle real kids in a real classroom, and their parents, so the school boards need to fix the system. The school boards decide to bring psychologists on staff because to find the the teachers at fault would mean union grief and that the school boards were inadequate and ineffective in educating. (So obviously then it must be the kids fault right?) To justify their growing presence in the schools, the psychologists have been finding an 'epidemic of ADHD' kids despite the fact that conveniently - there is no definitive or quantitative physiological test for ADHD - it comes down to the psychologists 'educated' judgement. And guess who is doing the educating and also has just the cure - Big Pharma. The situation now is that the Psychologists are simply pushing the drug on schoolkids every opportunity they get.

[Specs]

Bellingham, Wa, and Chicago - they're the kids of my closest friends and we discuss the kids issues regularly. The kids in Bellingham are now either home schooled or in private schools. The kids in Chicago are being home schooled for now. The parent's are still looking at private schools but until they find one they refuse to medicate their kids.

[Specs]

Another issue touched upon in the video is the lack of Arts in education. In these past eras of tightening budgets there was no money for Arts or Liberal studies such as Philosophy. That's a shame and the loss of will change the path of how our society and culture evolve in the long term as we morph into simple linear only thinkers.

[DEFCON]

So, what major societal transformation resulted in a system in which, 'drugs' are employed as the tool of choice to manage the behaviour of children?

Answer; any concept of ‘personal discipline & responsibility’ was replaced with another that only ensures, little Billy knows his Rights.

The new method; don’t spank your child because it might injure his precious little psyche. Instead, just drug the little bugger until he becomes docile and submissive.

[Don Hudson]

Specs, I taught school, (Grades 4, 5) when Physical Education was part of the curriculum. I taught phys-ed, some music and the bread-and-butter standards like the times-tables, phonics, writing and so on. I had kids which would have qualified as "ADD" but the notion didn't exist at the time; We all simply found ways to keep them interested, focussed, adjusting to capabilities. Marks were the last thing on my mind and the first thing on the principal's and the parents' mind. Quantification of personal qualities and ability was an administrative concept, not a concept for teachers. Drugs never occurred to us as "solutions" to "the problem" and parents, when there were some or at least one, coped as best they could without expecting others such as "the teachers", or "Pfizer", "Johnson & Johnson", or "Merck" to take responsibility for their children.

When I heard that that's how things went I was shocked that the solutions actually had some legitimacy especially with parents. I blame the "intellectuals" in the medical profession for bowing to such nonsensical pressures when the clinical evidence wasn't there except in rare, obvious cases, but in the end, parents said, "yes".

The other aspect of this of course is personal accountability and personal discipline, as DEFCON points out. "But, your Honor!, the bed was on fire when I got in it", gained legitimacy about twenty-five years ago, and part of that story was initially driven by a shift towards market consumerism (the 'parallel' seeds of which also led to the Occupy Movement) and soon both parents HAD to work "because wages plummeted while drug company profits soared", so to speak...it's not a primary "causal" factor certainly, but that's the way our society turned after 1970 and these are some of the collateral effects.

I strongly suspect even to this day however, that such solutions are not widely applied but the shock that this is seen as a solution to ordinary problems, (coming to terms with what is in fact a philosophical question) is difficult to put in perspective.

I don't know when the change occurred, but like Shop Class, (Industrial Arts), Music and Art, Physical Education became optional "if there was time" in the schedule. The popular view was, arts, shop and phys-ed were expensive in terms of the available timetable and teachers of standard subjects resented the time away from "their" subject. At one time while our children were in high school I discussed with one of their teachers implementing an offshoot of a philosophy course - a "critical thinking" course and was informed that parents would not support it as they wanted their children to "be prepared for the world", which meant they were afraid their kids wouldn't get jobs...which is the reason the "fluffy" subjects like those listed above have all but disappeared from high school curriculae.

A good friend recommended a neat book called, "Shop Class As Soul Craft"...it struck the right note in assessing the present priorities in our Canadian "education" system.

To be sure, everyone's an education expert because they have children in the system but I think "Philosophy", which almost no one wants to know about or listen to, takes a look at some underlying assumptions behind the valuing which is always implicit in what is chosen (and by whom), to be included as proper "education". I think that's an important thing to examine. At present, it is the discourse of business that informs educational priorities. Words such as "accountability, standardization, product" and priorities such as quantifying the product against a standard inform school boards who are "answerable" to the shareholders, (parents). Now I know that pointing this out seems a bit over the top because who doesn't want to know how their child is doing "against a standard"? Since funding decisions and curriculum are based upon such statistics, I should think a lot of people would want to understand this process.

I used to think the Classics, which formed a part of what used to be called a "liberal education", were the best way but I'm re-examining that notion. Sometimes I think those who go into plumbing, carpentry, electrical work and "making things" are not only better off financially but happier. Computers cannot install or do any of these things and therefore cannot, (like television) "steal" part of one's mind. We are not "brains-in-a-jar", yet...

Something for the hands, something for the mind, something for the soul...

Don

[Specs]

From DEFCON

So, what major societal transformation resulted in a system in which, 'drugs' are employed as the tool of choice to manage the behaviour of children?

I expect it's more the teacher's and the parent's faults. Most of the current generation of today's teachers gre up in that 'don't touch my child' generation so even if corporal punishment was permitted (and legalized?)- today's teacher's simply wouldn't be up to it. They'd be more scarred than the student. Parent's must accept some of the blame as well. There from the same generation as the teachers and they often think of the school as their baby sitting service. Not a lot of them actually sit down and objectively think about how their kid is developing. At most they're just happy if the kid is passing and hopefully passing well. I just inherited a kid from a dysfunctional family. I knew her when she was very young and thought at the time that she had an amazing future ahead of her. 10 yrs later, social services just had her removed from her home due to abuse and obvious psychological issues with the parents. Her family is quite well to do with old family money but completely dysfunctional. I find it absolutely astonishingly stupid that not one of her 'concerned' parents or relatives actually seems to appreciate what she's been through or has her best interests in mind when giving me advice. None of them recognize what she can do exceptionally well for a kid that age or recognize some of things she simply can't. There simply is no awareness of how she's developed outside of what her report card and the school guidance concillors say. In the short time she's been in my care I've come to consider the school system administration as completely self serving with concern for the kids to be secondary.

[Specs]

I think you should open a private school in Chicago Don.

I used to think the Classics, which formed a part of what used to be called a "liberal education", were the best way but I'm re-examining that notion. Sometimes I think those who go into plumbing, carpentry, electrical work and "making things" are not only better off financially but happier. Computers cannot install or do any of these things and therefore cannot, (like television) "steal" part of one's mind. We are not "brains-in-a-jar", yet...

Something for the hands, something for the mind, something for the soul...

Don

I would agree completely. The target should be a kid that finishes school with self confidence, self repect, and can think out or rationalize issues themselves and has the courage to make well considered independant decisions. With those attributes, they'll always be as happy as they can be whatever life throws at them.

After that - If they want more education - great. If not - great.

With my new project, I'm just focussed on raising her consciousness and self awareness right now. We talk a lot about the world and discuss some perspectives she's never seen or contemplated. Some travel is in the cards as well to bolster that inquisitivenss. When the time comes for how she want's to spend the rest of her at least I'll know she wasn't sold a prepackaged one size fits all program.

[chockalicious]

There are some pretty broad brushes doing some painting here but also some great conversation.

Specs, Kudos to you for the work you are undertaking, especially not being a parent already.

I think part of the problem with respect to all of the ADHD diagnosis and associated drugs is that some parents just don't want to accept that kids develop differently and that there may not be a "reason" why little Sally is bad in school or a disruption. It may be a matter of she just is not that bright however no parent wants to hear that, better to have a reason why their child is like that. I think that this also applies to the diagnosis of Autism or Autism like disorders, at least the parents can take solace that there is reason for it.

While there may be an over diagnosis of ADHD I have seen first hand a friend's son get the medication he needs that allowed him to have some focus and his performance in the class room and at home improved dramatically. There are case where it is a legit course of action to medicate some kids.

It is probably worth noting that we as a society are medicated as never before, Pharma is the number one television advertiser in North America. It is not only children being medicated but everyone being medicated.

Don, I think you make a great point about teaching critical thinking vis a vis the classics. The challenge is that with so may school boards "teaching to the test" the room for that kind of course on the curriculum falls by the wayside. I am not really sure what the answer is but I am not sure it is standardized testing.

Defcon, I disagree with your assertion on corporal punishment vs rights. Being strapped in grade 3 did not change my behavior and if a teacher laid a finger on my child they would have my foot in their ass. I don't trust the teaching profession enough to give over the right to hand out physical punishment. As a parent though it is my job to make sure that I have taught my child to deal with respect in an age appropriate way in the class room.

[Specs]

There are some pretty broad brushes doing some painting here but also some great conversation.

Some of that painting was from me but I'll stand by my assertions. I meet lot's of young folks today who want to be teachers but for the wrong reasons (good pay, summers off, shame you have to watch kids) and to be honest without any real experience at life. They think it's a cookie cutter world and they are driving their unions to negotiate cookie cutter solutions

I think part of the problem with respect to all of the ADHD diagnosis and associated drugs is that some parents just don't want to accept that kids develop differently and that there may not be a "reason" why little Sally is bad in school or a disruption. It may be a matter of she just is not that bright however no parent wants to hear that, better to have a reason why their child is like that. I think that this also applies to the diagnosis of Autism or Autism like disorders, at least the parents can take solace that there is reason for it.

You're right but really though - who is to say little Sally isnot that bright. I can guarantee you that if you mesaure whatever it is you want to measure at a specific time in her development and based on those snapshot results pidgeon hole for the rest of her growing years it will have an overall negative effect no matter if she did well or poor on the test. Parent's though don't have any other resources to help them raise their kids and a good many of them can't even think in terms other than Pass or Fail.

While there may be an over diagnosis of ADHD I have seen first hand a friend's son get the medication he needs that allowed him to have some focus and his performance in the class room and at home improved dramatically. There are case where it is a legit course of action to medicate some kids.

I've seen the same but at what cost? He learns his ABCs at 5 yrs old instead of 7. Maybe at 5 yrs old, for some kids, geometry or another language would be better. One of the ADHD non Ritalin kids home schooled kids in Seattle I mentioned has a best friend living across the street and we take him on vacation with us sometimes. The kid across the street is a genius, top marks in everything. Between the 2 of them though, the Genius is the last one I'd rely on to fix the tractor of cut the bushes or really get anything significant accomplished unsupervised. He has no self confidence and is unable to think for himself in accomplishing a goal. 10 yrs down the road I have no doubt which will one be happier with their life and be the more capable.

It is probably worth noting that we as a society are medicated as never before, Pharma is the number one television advertiser in North America. It is not only children being medicated but everyone being medicated.

Big Pharma are also probably one of the biggest source for political campaign contributions and they're the ones sponsoring also those conferences in the medical profession.

[chockalicious]

I've seen the same but at what cost? He learns his ABCs at 5 yrs old instead of 7. Maybe at 5 yrs old, for some kids, geometry or another language would be better. One of the ADHD non Ritalin kids home schooled kids in Seattle I mentioned has a best friend living across the street and we take him on vacation with us sometimes. The kid across the street is a genius, top marks in everything. Between the 2 of them though, the Genius is the last one I'd rely on to fix the tractor of cut the bushes or really get anything significant accomplished unsupervised. He has no self confidence and is unable to think for himself in accomplishing a goal. 10 yrs down the road I have no doubt which will one be happier with their life and be the more capable.

Hi Specs

I think we agree far more than we disagree but this is a really harsh assessment, trying to predict how someone will turn out is folly IMO.

Maybe cutting brush and fixing a tractor are not skills you would want him to do but diagnosing a tumor or fixing a computer are.

[J.O.]

ADHD is as new from a medical diagnosis perspective as cancer was 75 years ago. While the science is not conclusive, to dismiss or deny the notion that it exists does a dis-service to many professionals who have dedicated much of their time to helping children who are struggling with learning and behavioural issues. We went through many challenges with one of our sons and I can assure we exhausted all available solutions over many months before deciding that medication was worth a try. The results were remarkable and I am convinced that a child who would have been thrown to the trash in the school system was instead able to graduate high school, attend college and become gainfully employed.

Quite agree that the drug is over used but remember it is not the teacher who has the final say regarding the drug (need) or has the child medicated..... the parents have the sole responsibility in this regard and it would seem from the numbers that the majority take the easy way out rather than parenting........

When you have done your very best to love and support a child who had serious social and learning challenges - and who was significantly helped by a medication such as Ritalin - then you can decide who to criticize for a lack of parenting skills. I'm not saying that there aren't parents, doctors and school systems who are overusing such medications, but to suggest that it's a majority shows that you really don't know very much about it. Sorry but you touched a nerve.

[Specs]

_{I think it was myself that initially suggested it was overprescribed and I stand by that. In the context of the US school systems, parents are somewhat complicit in not standing up for their kids but I can't blame them. I sincerely believe it is overprescribed and has become big business in the States. Any parent who tried to tackle the issue would soon find the chips stacked aginst them and their kids when they confront the alliance of government, big Pharma and the medical profession who all profit from the situation.}

_{In that context and the extent of the above I agree with Malcolm. I also recognize though that Ritalin has genuinely helped some kids. It has been effective in some where nothing else would work.}

_{I have an autistic brother 2 years younger than myself and he was on Ritalin long before it ever became the mainstream drug of choice it is in todays school system. Ritalin did help with him but only into early adulthood. We tried everything but eventually the options run out and he is now institutionalized outside of Canada and the US where mental and emotional issues are recognized and addressed more effectively by the health care community.}

_{But our 2 cases and yours are not irepresentative of the general purpose Ritalin is being used today in the schools. It's purpose today is let the school system function as it always has with more consideration for the well being of the boards, the admin and the teachers, than for the kids.}

[boestar]

If I were a kid in school today I would be diagnosed ADD. I was an underachiever, I was bored, I acted out, you name it, I fit the bill. The reason.... I was bored silly. I didnt have a computer or any of that fance stuff we have today but I would have certainly been happier elsewhere. I completed highschool as an average student (maybe less than).

After high School I went directly into a field I love (call me stupid) Aviation. I now excel at everything I do why? because I like it, it interests me and the more I learn the more I want to learn. Any Exams I have taken have always been in the high 90s. in flight school I preogrssed faster than average and even solo'd on my 3rd time in the seat.

When I applied to the Military as a Tecnician and went through the aptitude exams, I was called back and sat with 2 big wigs who said that I should be applying as an officer (I declined the offer, actually never joined up at all)

My point with all this horn blowing is that once the math and physics and business stuff had a purpose and a meaning and even a practical application it was no longer boring. It had a point, a goal. I learned more working than I ever learned in school.

Perhaps we should be teaching the practical application of the subject matter rather than just the subject matter itself. It is almost a communist way of thinking but why not teach the individual to the indivduals strengths. If you have the aptitude to fix planes then thats what you will learn if you have the aptitude to sweep floors then so be ti. I am sure theere will be someone who points out the downside...

[Specs]

I used to think the Classics, which formed a part of what used to be called a "liberal education", were the best way but I'm re-examining that notion. Sometimes I think those who go into plumbing, carpentry, electrical work and "making things" are not only better off financially but happier. Computers cannot install or do any of these things and therefore cannot, (like television) "steal" part of one's mind. We are not "brains-in-a-jar", yet...

Something for the hands, something for the mind, something for the soul...

Don

His comments on creativity really struck a nerve with me as well. It's sad what the system does to stifle it in our young.

I make it a point to take some of the nieces and nephews of a certain age to see the one of a kind show. Some of the things there might be considered tacky and low brow to some. I never fail to be amazed at the width and breadth of the imagination and creativity on display there. In my mind it's equivalent to a wonderful musical or play or book. My unstated goal in bringing the younguns there is to let them see that there are other ways to make good living doing something for yourself that is creative and something you enjoy.

The same could be said for trades such as carpentry, masonry, landscaping etc. These can be creative carrers and they offer rewards in life you just can't get working for somebody else.

Perhaps that's the way the sschool system should be redisigned. Instead of focussing on employees for the future, they boards should evolve to focus on creativity and building entrepreneurial craftsmen and leave the underachievers to chase the degrees and academic achievement standards.

[DEFCON]

I think everyone’s put a lot of thought into their responses and I don’t think I’d have much to debate in that regard.

I have had but one challenge with a young person. Way back when, my wife’s half-sister came to live with us. She was twelve, very bright and I thought; a kid destined for good things. Well’ two weeks into the school year found me sitting in the ‘principal’s office’, something I was quite familiar with, but hadn’t done for a very long time.

Anyway, I was surprised by the response to, what I saw as a discipline problem. The Principal, his Vice, a teacher, and the Board child psychologist were present and described the situation as a ‘discipline’ problem. The psychologist suggested drugs right away for ADHD. I told her I had suffered from ADHD as a kid. She enquired as to how it was managed. I told a quick ‘smack’ always seemed to work. She found my answer troubling?

Later in the discussion, I advised her that I used to get strapped for misbehaving in school. Her response; “and wasn’t that great”, led me to state; “I didn’t get it enough, which left her sitting there with a screwed-up face?

Ultimately, I was advised; corporal discipline of any kind was no longer an option? The alternative; counseling & drugs were ‘recommended’ and soon applied. In this case, the drugs etc proved to be costly and time wasting exercises in futility.

[boestar]

Aint that the way... And what a lesson to teach. Drugs will cure all your ills. (or cause them...either or)

[Specs]

We had a reunion a few years ago and I remember the discussions we had re the 'strap'. We all grinned about the indiscretions and admitted we deserved it. There certainly was no ill will towards the teaching staff, in fact, there was probably some extra affection and respect. The typical scenario was walking out of the office alone or with our cohorts, being thankful we survived with suppressed grins and short lived promises never to get caught again.

Todays teachers just aren't up to the task of smacking a kid these days. Heck - who is? Certainly not myself and I would doubt anybody on this board. But the strap certainly did work wonders. Us repeat offenders were kept in check with our self repect intact and the other kids had clear evidence of what would happen if they misbehaved.

But would it work with ails the typical ADD or ADHD kid today? I expect it wouldn't. Somebody above said kids are overstimulated these days and while I'm not sure that's the case, I will agree that many are stimulated differently. This is only my conjecture but I figure brains are stll developing in those pre adult years and the different types and levels of stimulation between the kids means differing rates of brain development and functions. The school boards can't cope with that the way they are structured today. They only work for kids that fit the model student mould the curriculum and progression path was based upon. The difficult kids get Special Ed. That model doesn't work anymore and the boards need to adapt accordingly.

[DEFCON]

I wonder about the 'fuel' kid's get today? Processed and or take out foods are loaded with sugars, salts, corn products and Dow’s contributions. Although they offer convenience to the overstressed parent, it’s a different story for the kid and may be responsible in part for some of the behaviour exhibited today?

[Kip Powick]

I wonder about the 'fuel' kid's get today? Processed and or take out foods are loaded with sugars, salts, corn products and Dow’s contributions. Although they offer convenience to the overstressed parent, it’s a different story for the kid and may be responsible in part for some of the behaviour exhibited today?

Probably a correct assumption.....but a factor that I believe is so often overlooked is the plight of the "latch-key" kids.

It is said that a childs personality is pretty well formed as they pass their 6th or 7th year of life......what if, for the most part, the "parent(s)" aren't there for the kids?? Is it possible they become misguided/out of touch with reality earlier/easier????

Yes, I am a very strong advocate for at least one parent staying at home and I know there are those that will state that in many cases both parents have to work to survive in todays world.... I don't have what is considered as an acceptable resolution for that problem........ suffice to say......I certainly don't envy you or your kids and wish you all good luck.

[mo32a]

Yes, I am a very strong advocate for at least one parent staying at home and I know there are those that will state that in many cases both parents have to work to survive in todays world.... I don't have what is considered as an acceptable resolution for that problem........ suffice to say......I certainly don't envy you or your kids and wish you all good luck.

I'm with you on that. What I would suggest is that for the first ten years of a childs life, one spouse is able to income split with the other and claim a larger tax reduction for every child in order to reduce the tax load and employment expenses in order to allow one spouse to stay home. Offsetting the loss of tax revenue would be the reduction of unemployment as other folks took the jobs left vacant by those staying home to care for their children. No universal child care program could ever offer that benefit to the children, and we would have a much better adjusted youth population.

Yeah, you might have to satisfy yourself with a Chevy instead of a BMW but that is a small price to pay IMO.