Thoughts for discussion.... ?

[Mitch Cronin]

http://www.disclosureproject.org/docs/pdf/Global-Fraud-Paul-Hellyer-UFO-Congress-Feb272011.pdf

That's a paper written by Paul Hellyer, one of our previous defence ministers.... Is he a "conspiracy theorist"?

..and if you have the stomach for it, have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkswXVmG4xM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkswXVmG4xM

Larry Warren USAF - Security Officer

Captain Robert Salas USAF (Ret.) - Missile Launch Officer

Harland Bentley ex US Army

Lt. Colonel Dwyne Arnesson USAF (Ret.) - Communications and Electronics Officer

Daniel Sheehan - Attorney

Maj. George Filer, III Pilot USAF (Ret.)

John Callahan - Former FAA Head of Accident Investigation

Mark McCandlish - USAF

Lt. Col. Charles Brown - USAF (Ret.)

Michael Smith - USAF Radar Controller

Dr. Carol Rosin -ex Military Strategist

Sgt. Clifford Strong - US Army

Donna Hare - NASA Contractor

Dan Willis - US Navy

Enrique Kolbeck - Senior Air Traffic Controller, Mexico City

Commander Graham Bethune - US Navy (Ret.)

John Maynard - US Army Defence Intelligence Agency (Ret.)

Sgt. Karl Wolf - Ex USAF Electronics Repair, Langley Virginia

Don Phillips - Design Engineer Lockheed Skunkworks and CIA contractor

Plus, they said back in 2001, 400 other people, all willing to testify before congress...

Are those people all Conspiracy Theorists? ...or "Nuts"?.... or, ....is it possibly time, for folks who usually keep a closed minded view on such things, to have a rethink?

Myself?..... I'm sure it'll come as no surprise to anyone here, I believe them.

Are we all sheep who can be used as biological wealth generators for the "elite" few? Don't we all owe it to our progeny to find the truths and do what we can to protect their interests? Can we really hand them off to the slaughterhouse without ever having considered that everything we've known as "The Rat Race" is misguided efforts, based on lies?

Are we "stewards" of this little piece of rock floating about the Universe? Or... Are we just scraps of mutton for someone else's table?

Yes, be skeptical, but don't shut off your senses... Don't "conclude" without first looking at all the evidence....

I heard nothing of this back in 2001.... Evidently "mainstream media" generally chooses to ignore these issues. Do you think Paul Hellyer might have hit on the reasons for that? Are we happy just to let this sort of "secret government" decide mankind's fate without our input?

Cheers,

Mitch

PS. There are OODLES of more recent events and encounters available for anyone curious enough. Yep, some of them are nonsense fakes cooked up for a laugh, or to get people to watch their utube vid. BUT, there are several with multiple witnesses, multiple camera recordings, sometimes radar confirmations...etc.

[J.O.]

His comments about the house of cards we call a financial system were far more interesting to me than the ones about UFOs.

[Mitch Cronin]

Well at least you have the stones to comment Jeff.... Unlike the rest of the lily livered, yellow bellied sapsuckers around here.

I'm curious though... Are his comments about UFO's uninteresting to you because you don't believe aliens exist? Or, do you not believe they're visiting us?

Did you watch any of the folks in that vid I posted? Do you not believe their stories?

[Chipndeal]

Well at least you have the stones to comment Jeff.... Unlike the rest of the lily livered, yellow bellied sapsuckers around here.

I'm curious though... Are his comments about UFO's uninteresting to you because you don't believe aliens exist? Or, do you not believe they're visiting us?

Did you watch any of the folks in that vid I posted? Do you not believe their stories?

No, I think that whole press briefing was a consipracy. Not a single person in there I could recognise. Who were those people? For all I know it is a staged event made for Youtube.

[RGT2.0]

Ok I'll comment.

When I was 15 years old and working on the southern part of Lake of the Woods. I, along with about 8 guests saw a UFO.

An 'Unidentified Flying Object'. (not alien)

The object I saw zipped around the dark sky at great speed and made 90 degree turns at great speed.

Now that I know what what I know ...it was a classic UFO sighting.

We where all freaked out and talked about for days afterward. Did I report it to anyone ? Nope, my father wouldn't let me.

Do I think or did I think it was from another world ...NOPE.

When I was 15yrs old I could identify almost any type of of aircraft. It was a hobby of mine. The fist thing that came into my little head at the time was ..."cool I think I just saw an experimental airplane".

I am 45 years old and have been in aviation for close to 25 years.

I have seen some pretty strange things but not once do I think I have seen anything that I think was not of this world.

cheers

p.s. I too will watch the vid cuz I like this kind of stuff. But I will have to do it next week some time.

[Kip Powick]

No, I think that whole press briefing was a consipracy. Not a single person in there I could recognise. Who were those people? For all I know it is a staged event made for Youtube.

Actually one can "Google" any or all the names and they do come up as real people.

Just one question.......why have sightings of UFOs and apparent abductions pretty much dropped to zero with the advent of the consumer available vid cam and the cellphone vid cams??? :stirthepot:

Sorry Mitch......Just got bigger things to worry about and better time spent with my limited time remaining here on the "blue marble".... :Grin-Nod:

[chockalicious]

Well at least you have the stones to comment Jeff.... Unlike the rest of the lily livered, yellow bellied sapsuckers around here.

I'm curious though... Are his comments about UFO's uninteresting to you because you don't believe aliens exist? Or, do you not believe they're visiting us?

Did you watch any of the folks in that vid I posted? Do you not believe their stories?

Hi Mitch

You're one of the good guys here so that is the only reason I am throwing my $.02 in.

I will make a bit of an assumption here and say that a lot of people just don't care or have the time to care. Honestly, I have enough going on that I simply am not intellectually curious enough to care about UFO conspiracies, an hour watching a Yotube video on it is an hour that I will never get back. Meanwhile I will scour the internet for trade rumors for basketball bench warmers. Different stroke for different folks I guess.

This being said I think it is the height of arrogance to say we are alone in the universe.

[J.O.]

Hi Mitch;

I do not believe that we are the only inhabitants of the universe, but I also don't believe that those other folks are visiting our planet. Why should they? If they can travel through space and time (which we can't even envision beyond basic theory), what could they possibly learn from us, unless they need to know how to screw up a planet, or how to set up a financial Ponzi scheme?

FWIW.

Jeff

[Seeker]

Well at least you have the stones to comment Jeff.... Unlike the rest of the lily livered, yellow bellied sapsuckers around here.

I'm curious though... Are his comments about UFO's uninteresting to you because you don't believe aliens exist? Or, do you not believe they're visiting us?

Did you watch any of the folks in that vid I posted? Do you not believe their stories?

Mitch, I'm watching it but you gotta give us some time - it's two hours long and you only posted the link yesterday!

[Mitch Cronin]

Now we're gettin' somewhere! ...love it!

Fair comments all. I've got a few points to make now...

Kip,

I think you'd find, as I believe I have, that it appears reports, including video (often multiple video's of the same event) are on the increase. Here's just one from Canada in 2008:

From this site: The Canadian UFO Survey

RGT2.0,

Re: "I have seen some pretty strange things but not once do I think I have seen anything that I think was not of this world."

I would have said exactly that if anyone had asked.... If I hadn't seen what you saw when you were 15. How do you conclude it was "not alien"?

Choc,

Re: "I simply am not intellectually curious enough to care about UFO conspiracies"

Where's the conspiracy? I don't understand why this subject would fall into the "Conspiracy Theory to Be Dismissed Out Of Hand" basket?

Jeff,

Re: "Why should they?"

There are three lines of thought that I'm aware of ... One is they are here to help, another is they are here to study, and the other is that they want something. If they were here to help, reasons could be plentiful. If they were here to take something, one could reasonably ask "why don't they take it and go?" Or "why haven't they done so already?" ... and if they were here just to study... Well, heck, isn't that exactly what we would do if we could?

I suspect a great many folks agree with the notion that we're not alone in the universe, but have trouble believing any technology could exist that would enable visits... I think science has so far demonstrated beautifully the folly of presuming our current understandings of nature and physics will never be shown to have been incorrect, or incomplete. Current science tells us that 70% of our universe is composed of "Dark Energy". Which simply means we know nothing about it. Current science tells us that in the emptiness of intergalactic space, there exists much more than emptiness... Quantum fluctuations (google it) have been shown to exist... matter and anti-matter appearing and disappearing everywhere... That's the so called "Zero Point Energy" that some are attempting to harness now. Almost anything has to be considered possible...

We once knew our planet was flat

We once knew we were at the centre of the universe

We once knew we were at the centre of our solar system

We once knew our galaxy was the whole universe

We once knew there were four elements

We once knew the atom was the smallest indivisible particle of nature

We once knew human flight was impossible

We once knew ..... etc...

[Guest]

Now we're gettin' somewhere! ...love it!

Fair comments all. I've got a few points to make now...

Kip,

I think you'd find, as I believe I have, that it appears reports, including video (often multiple video's of the same event) are on the increase. Here's just one from Canada in 2008:

From this site: The Canadian UFO Survey

RGT2.0,

Re: "I have seen some pretty strange things but not once do I think I have seen anything that I think was not of this world."

I would have said exactly that if anyone had asked.... If I hadn't seen what you saw when you were 15. How do you conclude it was "not alien"?

Choc,

Re: "I simply am not intellectually curious enough to care about UFO conspiracies"

Where's the conspiracy? I don't understand why this subject would fall into the "Conspiracy Theory to Be Dismissed Out Of Hand" basket?

Jeff,

Re: "Why should they?"

There are three lines of thought that I'm aware of ... One is they are here to help, another is they are here to study, and the other is that they want something. If they were here to help, reasons could be plentiful. If they were here to take something, one could reasonably ask "why don't they take it and go?" Or "why haven't they done so already?" ... and if they were here just to study... Well, heck, isn't that exactly what we would do if we could?

I suspect a great many folks agree with the notion that we're not alone in the universe, but have trouble believing any technology could exist that would enable visits... I think science has so far demonstrated beautifully the folly of presuming our current understandings of nature and physics will never be shown to have been incorrect, or incomplete. Current science tells us that 70% of our universe is composed of "Dark Energy". Which simply means we know nothing about it. Current science tells us that in the emptiness of intergalactic space, there exists much more than emptiness... Quantum fluctuations (google it) have been shown to exist... matter and anti-matter appearing and disappearing everywhere... That's the so called "Zero Point Energy" that some are attempting to harness now. Almost anything has to be considered possible...

We once knew our planet was flat

We once knew we were at the centre of the universe

We once knew we were at the centre of our solar system

We once knew our galaxy was the whole universe

We once knew there were four elements

We once knew the atom was the smallest indivisible particle of nature

We once knew human flight was impossible

We once knew ..... etc...

Mitch, I agree. To think we are the only intelligent life out there is a grand debate. We have not yet gone beyond our solar system let alone the next planet. Who knows what is out there. i firmly believe that there is life out there, we just need to find it, or it find us, if it has not already.

[RGT2.0]

RGT2.0,

Re: "I have seen some pretty strange things but not once do I think I have seen anything that I think was not of this world."

I would have said exactly that if anyone had asked.... If I hadn't seen what you saw when you were 15. How do you conclude it was "not alien"?

My conclusion is mostly a gut feeling... maybe it was an alien craft.

I am pretty open to this subject. Just waiting for someone or thing to prove me wrong.

If they are here I really wish they would stop pissing around and show themselves.

This place(planet) could use some help that they may be able to provide.

[Moon The Loon]

We once knew we were at the centre of the universe

I live in Ottawa. We're not???

[chockalicious]

Choc,

Re: "I simply am not intellectually curious enough to care about UFO conspiracies"

Where's the conspiracy? I don't understand why this subject would fall into the "Conspiracy Theory to Be Dismissed Out Of Hand" basket?

I probably should have phrased this as caring about UFO or UFO conspiracies. The problem with the internet is that anyone can find a source to back up whatever wingnut position they want, whether credible or not. A quick search on the author led to other UFO types de-bunking his work.

Unfortunately it seems UFO can not be talked about without someone at asome point mentioning conspiracy theroies.

Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you.

[LongTimer V]

Mitch i would have commented earlier but i'm just to damn busy

checking my crackberry for every stupid email that some people actually consider important

,updating my facebook and twitter accounts etc. etc. etc.

with useless crap

What was the question

Its hotrod season and its time to go heat up the planet

pedal to the metal

[deicer]

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110704.html

[Mitch Cronin]

Given that every element in our solar system heavier than H and He MUST have come from an external source, doesn't that imply we are "aliens"?

Rich,

Interesting thought.... I suspect the answer is that we're made of the same batch of star stuff that created our sun... It too has many heavier elements, but just in comparatively tiny amounts. ...comparable to the total ratio of metals to gas in the rest of the solar system I think (though I'm not willing, at the moment, to hunt for a source for that).

There's also a bunch of folks who say that we are in fact a hybrid of some earlier brand of homo-something-or-other and aliens. There's a lot of interesting circumstantial(?) sort of "evidence" that would make sense in that context, but I certainly haven't seen anything to convince me it's so. Eric von Daniken (Chariots of the Gods author) still holds that theory dearest. He feels he's seen "proof" enough for him. The most fascinating point in that theory to me is that it would explain why we're the only beasts on this planet who can't establish a harmony with nature as a part of a thriving eco-system. Maybe we did come from elsewhere?

Cheers,

M

[boestar]

I remember a pilot from many moons ago telling me a story about flying up north in the Sault and other points north. Pilots had seen (many or all did not report but did discuss over pints) UFO's. Described as small dark and triangular in shape. These craft would shadow their aircraft for short times then fly off. No lights, No markings. just a black UFO.

Later it was revealed that the USAF had run "test" flights of the F-117 in the northern US and Canada to prove the stealth technology. Yes they were UFOs to the pilots observing them but NOT Aliens.

That being said...

With Billions and billions of stars in the universe and billions of them having systems similar to ours, I believe there is a good chance that some combination of amino acids combined to create life on another planet. As fo them visiting us... We already do that on a smaller scale. We sent men to the moon (another subject of debate) we sent probes to Mars and Venus. We sent probes to the outer reaches ofthe solar system and beyond with Voyager and Mariner etc. Humans are inately curious creatures so who is to say that some other form of life isn't. This planet alone has millions of species of animal from the smallest bacteria to the Blue Whale. some of that life exists in environments that would kill a human in very short order so it would seem that the argument for the environmental conditions to support life are very specific can be tossed out as well. While I do believe there is life out there, I am undecided as to whether they have paid us a visit. I will be a true believer when ET is in my living room.

[Specs]

I'd love to think we are not alone and that the truth is out there somewhere but from all that we've learned or observed so far it would seem each body in the universe is unique. Given the infinite number of compositional possibilities, with additional variables such as time, gravitational interactions, proximity to other planets, stars, etc., factored in, it's not an unreasonable conclusion. I don't even think we've been able to find a single galaxy that resembles another closely enough that the supposition would be invalidated.

Why UFO's. Why would they veer 90 degrees at riciculous speeds? Why would they care to remain unobserved. Why haven't they dumped their waste here? WHy haven't they made widespread contact? Why do the abductions only occur late at night instead of at noon from the middle of a crowded meeting room. WHy haven't they offerred us tours?

[J.O.]

One more question for your list Specs. Why do they always "visit" earthlings who wear overalls and don't believe in dentists?

[Moon The Loon]

Kurt Vonnegut (Chariots of the Gods author) still holds that theory dearest. He feels he's seen "proof" enough for him. The most fascinating point in that theory to me is that it would explain why we're the only beasts on this planet who can't establish a harmony with nature as a part of a thriving eco-system. Maybe we did come from elsewhere?

Hey Mitch: Eric von Daniken (a kook) wrote Chariots Of The Gods. Vonnegut was simply (actually very complicatedly) a sci-fi story writer, together with his alter-ego Kilgour Trout.

von Daniken is your classic "because these are here, they were created by..." prophet. That is akin to the quantum leaps practiced over the millenia by religions and governments alike. The water was changed to wine, therefore it was done by [a] God. What was before the universe? Must have been nothing because everything has a beginning and an end, right? Therefore the universe was created by [a] God.

Carl Sagan explained the concept of infinity best when he wrote Contact. During the visit in the strange machine to some star in the Vegan system, young Ellie met a likeness of her father who identified himself as what we humans would call God. When further asked about the wormholes that got her there, he replied, I don't know - they were here when I got here.

In short, infinity means there is no beginning and no end. The universe as explained by classical astrophysics is a closed definition and therefore a contradiction of the term "infinite".

Anyway, if you want a really good read, try some Velikovsky. His theories developed in the forties and fifties were ridiculed beyond compare, many of which have now become accepted by modern astonomers.

This could go on and on and on...!

[Mitch Cronin]

DOH! Thanks Moon. Of course it was Eric von Daniken I was thinking of... and I completely agree with your assessment of him. I did read one book by Velikovsky, years ago, I think... He was the loudest proponent of Catastrophic causes for extinctions when everyone else was claiming gradual processes were responsible, I think... was that him?

Specs,

If manipulation of spacetime is their method of travel, they must have a handle on gravity... Manipulation of gravity could make those right angled turns and wicked accelerations absolutely smooth for them, so why not? As to the rest of your questions... I have no idea. But an inability to answer those questions isn't sufficient reason to discount the possibility, for me anyway.

Jeff.... It seems you didn't watch any of those fella's on that video I posted. All of them had teeth, no coveralls, and an education to boot!.

Choc,

I'm afraid I have something of a prejudice that surfaces when I hear someone use the phrase "conspiracy theory".... I immediately presume the speaker has a closed mind to the subject at hand. I'm not interested in the band-wagon brand of idea.... just thought and ideas that are open ended and available for reshaping and building.

Re: The problem with the internet is that anyone can find a source to back up whatever wingnut position they want, whether credible or not." Absolutely! Which makes your next words something of a puzzle: "A quick search on the author led to other UFO types de-bunking his work." Given the truth of that first quote, what good then is a "quick search"? BTW... I'm presuming "the author" you're speaking of is Paul Hellyer? Our former Minister of Defense? .... I guess you didn't look at that video either, did you?

[Moon The Loon]

DOH! Thanks Moon. Of course it was Eric von Daniken I was thinking of... and I completely agree with your assessment of him. I did read one book by Velikovsky, years ago, I think... He was the loudest proponent of Catastrophic causes for extinctions when everyone else was claiming gradual processes were responsible, I think... was that him?

That's the guy, Mitch. The process he used was to compare written and oral traditions of cultures from all over the world. When he saw commonalities between (say) Incan natural historic events and (say) Chinese natural historic events, he developed timelines and then his theories of catastrophic events. His most outrageous theory at the time was that our current moon was literally blasted out of the earth by a cosmic collision. That theory was nearly solidified by the decades later analysis of moon rocks which had signatures identical to that from the earth's crust. That's just a nutshell - I think it's a lot more complex than that. I read all of his books in the late 70's when they were still labelled "fantasy".

My personal favourite vindication of his is the probability of the reality of the Great Flood (Noah's Ark) with the discovery of sub-surface cities in the Black Sea dating back about 3500 years. As far as the Ark itself, suposedly resting on Mt. Ararat, local politics has prevented any real archaelogy of the mountain. It will be very interesting when the scientists can get around that hurdle!

[Mitch Cronin]

Interesting you should mention that Moon.... I just recently saw a documentary on an attempt to identify a very large ship-like structure on a mountainside about 10 miles from Ararat... (the bible apparently uses the words "the mountains of Ararat" which could include one 10 miles away I'd think?) ... I'll see if I can find it for you... gimme a sec ().... Hmmm... seems there are quite a few of them.... can't find which one I saw at the moment.... Doesn't matter. Anyway, yessir, it seems many of Velikovsky's notions have been widely accepted as correct by now. Including the meteorite explanation for the last major extinction event 65 million yrs ago, and the much earlier origin of our moon.

[chockalicious]

Choc,

I'm afraid I have something of a prejudice that surfaces when I hear someone use the phrase "conspiracy theory".... I immediately presume the speaker has a closed mind to the subject at hand. I'm not interested in the band-wagon brand of idea.... just thought and ideas that are open ended and available for reshaping and building.

Re: The problem with the internet is that anyone can find a source to back up whatever wingnut position they want, whether credible or not." Absolutely! Which makes your next words something of a puzzle: "A quick search on the author led to other UFO types de-bunking his work." Given the truth of that first quote, what good then is a "quick search"? BTW... I'm presuming "the author" you're speaking of is Paul Hellyer? Our former Minister of Defense? .... I guess you didn't look at that video either, did you?

Hi Mitch

Point was that there is so much contradictory evidence (and I use that term loosely) that the time investment of knowing who/what to believe with respect to UFO/UFO conspiracy is not worth my time.

I wasye plenty of timne on the internet looking at things that may interest nobody else but I simply am not curious enough about UFO/UFO conspiracy to care. So no I did not watch the video.