Bring it back

[Kip Powick]

The Death Penalty............for the creep that murdered 8 year old "Tori", Victoria Stafford.

And no, I don't want to enter a debate about the death penalty... if you have been a member of this forum for awhile....you know where I stand with respect to creeps that prey on children and teens......re Clifford Olson/Bernardo.

[deicer]

I second that motion

Iceman

[Seeker]

Agreed.

[conehead]

Shall we quickly execute Michael Rafferty for killing Tori? Let's spare the expense of a trial... even though there is no body yet? The guy must have confessed, and we know the cops never screw these things up...

[Seeker]

Conehead;

Nobody said do it today. Look back at what Kip posted, and what was replied to; "....death penalty for the creep who killed Tori". We'll know after the trial if it's the right guy.

[Innuendo]

"....death penalty for the creep who killed Tori". We'll know after the trial if it's the right guy.

I hope you are right about the trial finding the right guy. In the meantime this CBC News summary of wrongful convictions is not confidence inspiring, particularly if the death penalty is going to be carried out.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/wrongfullyconvicted/

[Super 80]

but just think - if those dudes were hanged we would never KNOW they were innocent - think of all the taxpayer dollars paid out in compensation that could have been saved.

A few bucks worth of rope could have saved taxpayers the $10,000,000 paid to David Milgaard.

And going back to when Canada did have the death penalty a guy who raped and murdered a girl in the basement of Knox United Church in Calgary was not hanged. And there were a number of highly controversial cases when men widely believed to be innocent were hanged with little review.

A death sentence, especially when the Conservatives were in power was very unlikely to be carried out.

[deicer]

Shall we quickly execute Michael Rafferty for killing Tori? Let's spare the expense of a trial... even though there is no body yet? The guy must have confessed, and we know the cops never screw these things up...

Give them a trial, then an appeal.

If they have any doubt whatsoever, then jail them.

As Kip said, if you are certain, ala Bernardo/Olson, then there should be no hesitation in arranging for them to meet their God.

Iceman

[Super 80]

Give them a trial, then an appeal.

If they have any doubt whatsoever, then jail them.

And they were not absolutely certain about Milgaard or any of the others?

[DEFCON]

Let's start with a "Valcartier" approach to treatment for all bad guys.

[CAT3DUAL]

Valcartier..?

[bluemic]

Valcartier..?

Former military prison perhaps...? (Military prisons not being known for coddling their 'guests'...)

[Kip Powick]

RIP young lady

Body Found

[Timothy]

Perhaps we should start with the establishment of a "Justice System" in this country. We have a "Legal System", but in no way can it be called a Justice System. I doubt that most politicians and judges know the meaning of the word "justice". There have been many examples over the past few years where parents or guardians have killed children in their care and received only a few years in prison.

We have politicians ( past and present ) in this country who remind one of the Mad Queen in "Alice and Wonderland" who said that a word means whatever she wanted it to mean. Thus we have a "life sentence" with mandatory parole after 15 or 20 years. That is not a life sentence.

I'm with Kip if there is ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY about the guilt of the accused. Lacking that absolute certainty a life sentence should mean that the convict remains in prison until they die.

[DEFCON]

I think my opinion of “bad guys” of all flavours is fairly well known.

That aside, I don’t care for the death penalty for two reasons, getting the wrong guy and my belief that the fear of death only goes on until said death.

I’d prefer we consider building prisons designed to match the offender, prisons which treat the offender according to his / her profile.

For instance, a “Lifer” with a self-limiting illness wouldn’t receive fancy care or treatment options in the new system. Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for someone we’ve deemed unsaveable?

Why not go back to the road-kill menu? Why does being a criminal entitle one to Grade A Prime Rib when another law-abiding citizen isn’t?

Whatever happened to the lash? Ah yes, the application of same was removed as a sentencing option available to judges in the 1970’s by the do-gooder driven government of the day.

There are an awful lot of bad guys that don’t fear their own death. They’re always ready. Heck, our soldiers face the fear of their own demise every day while on mission and yet they continue. From my POV and especially in consideration of the violent offender, a prison should be some form of “purgatory”, a place where no particular form of sympathy is shown and in which the individual lives a life of pure discomfort. A death sentence is too quick a form of punishment and I think the data would show, hardly a deterrent.

[deicer]

I'm with Kip if there is ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY about the guilt of the accused. Lacking that absolute certainty a life sentence should mean that the convict remains in prison until they die.

I'll agree with that!

Iceman

[Kip Powick]

There are an awful lot of bad guys that don’t fear their own death. They’re always ready. Heck, our soldiers face the fear of their own demise every day while on mission and yet they continue

Apples and Oranges

There is no way, in my opinion, that you can compare a soldiers mission, (fear of being killed), with that of child murderer sentenced to death.

[IFG]

There is no way, in my opinion, that you can compare a soldiers mission, (fear of being killed), with that of child murderer sentenced to death.

Kip - I don't think that's his comparison, his point just goes to the prior disregard for mortality. It's a curious analogy, tho', so DEFCON can speak for himself beyond that

Perhaps we should start with the establishment of a "Justice System" in this country. We have a "Legal System", but in no way can it be called a Justice System ....

.... I'm with Kip if there is ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY about the guilt of the accused. Lacking that absolute certainty a life sentence should mean that the convict remains in prison until they die.

Timothy - You're conflating justice with vengeance. Now, maybe avenging a heinous crime works, maybe there's redeeming value for the rest of us, but making the case, why not call the spade a spade.

As for the concept of ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, it ducks the real issues about the death penalty. Three of the knocks against Capital punishment are

1. It doesn't achieve the stated aim (reduction of crime),
2. It is occasionally applied in error, and ...
3. It is applied arbitrarily

Your certainty principle doesn't concern the first point at all.

On the second point, it provides false and circuitous cover, since by definition the supposedly guilty party has been declared guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Perhaps you posit some more elastic degree of certainty as foundation for a more trivial life sentence (excluding any possibility of parole)?

But really, most of the argument around Capital Punishment will revolve around the third point, i.e. not the certainty or uncertainty of guilt, but whether the circumstances of the particular crime (as opposed to a hypothetically generic one) warrant execution. If you believe that "justice", for Capital cases, can be quantified in statutory language to compel the courts one way or the other, I'd be interested in your suggestions. In the meantime, the record is pretty clear that Capital Punishment was unevenly applied, by ethnicity/race, class, gender ... just about any delineation that's been examined. That probably applies to all kinds of sentencing, but there's a quantum difference between inequitable prison sentences on one hand, and life-or-death itself on the other.

Cheers, IFG

p.s. BTW, a tangential curiosity: there's an apparent corelation between conservative politics and support for the Death Penalty. Conservatives normally seek to limit the power of government bureaucrats. Here, in spite of several instances of over-reach by the Crown, reluctance is overcome by great enthusiasm .

[Kip Powick]

Kip - I don't think that's his comparison, his point just goes to the prior disregard for mortality. It's a curious analogy, tho', so DEFCON can speak for himself beyond that

IFG

Like you said , " he can explain his comment if he wishes" but with respect to your comment re "prior"

Many a soldier may think about his/her demise during an op but the prior thought of surviving the mission probably outweighs the fear of catching one. As well, the soldier never knows where/when/how that event, (death), may take place.

The prior thought of a predetermined time, place and method of death probably does not cross a murders mind either...but....when faced with the FACT that he,she (the murderer), is going to die on a specific day, time, place, and by what means becomes reality......well that must be quite a feeling.

In my opinion, the death penalty is not about revenge...it is "justice"

How to administer??? Isn't that why we have elected representatives, to formulate the laws we all live by. Mistakes.....? Yes, but DNA, as well as other methods have come a long way to alleviate that problem. IMO, to always fall back to the "mistakes" that were made as a reason for eliminating the death penalty is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

No death penalty?? OK.."Life in prison"...what a joke that sentence is, especially here in Canada.

Bernardo, Olsen, the guy who shot the cop while the officer was on his kness pleading for his life, and now the creep that killed Tori"....just to mention a few.....what more proof, do you want? Why should we , the people who live within the law, support these cretins with our tax dollars?

Yes, I am pro death penalty, and especially in the case of child murderers, I would stand in line to pull the switch, push the plunger, open the trap door, pull the trigger or drop the pellet.....and I can live with that rationale.

[Super 80]

And if Canada still had the death penalty this topic would be rambling about the seemingly random and non-nonsensical way in which it was administered and instead of "life not meaning life" it would be "death not meaning death"

Of those sentenced to death, who was actually hanged came down to which cabinet members bothered showing up to the cabinet meeting where their mercy plea was considered. Kill another criminal in a drunken brawl - to the gallows!, kill a child in a church basement - mercy!.

The system was absurd,

[Timothy]

Your points are well taken IFG, however I don't think that vengence is the appropriate term. There is a criminal code in Canada and there are sanctions imposed upon those who violate this code. Commit the crime - do the time. The taking of another life, i.e. murder, is an offence in the criminal code and the sanction for this crime is, or should be, life in prison. The death penalty used to be an option and still is in many jurisdictions. We're not talking vengence here, simply the consequence of a violation of the criminal code.

We're not concerned here with the state of mind of the criminal. Anyone who commits murder cannot be completely sane - something is missing somewhere. Time in prison is punishment any way you look at it. The emphasis on "correction" only serves to mask this fact.

When one speaks of "beyond a reasonable doubt" not everyone views this in the same light. We do have "hung juries". However, I would posit that there are cases where there is "no" doubt as to the guilt of the accused and it may well be these to which Kim referred.

I, for one, am fed up with the bleeding heart approach to criminal justice taken by many Canadian judges. The criminal code was formulated to protect society at large. In far too many cases it has failed to do that in practice.

[RFL]

We need to push for an elected judiciary vs appointed. Almost all of the judges in Canada were/are appointed by the Liberal Party and they have "liberal" values. They are isolated from community values and aloof.

[BoomerPete]

The death penalty used to be an option and still is in many jurisdictions.

Care to define exactly who constitutes the "many" Timothy?

[Kip Powick]

Care to define exactly who constitutes the "many" Timothy?

Hello Pete..

For starters, the USA has 37 states that still invoke the death penalty

1099 executed as of April 01...2008

I'm sure "other" countries have it as well but I have not looked it up on the INet.

[BoomerPete]

Hello Pete..

For starters, the USA has 37 states that still invoke the death penalty

1099 executed as of April 01...2008

I'm sure "other" countries have it as well but I have not looked it up on the INet.

Hello Kip,

Well, if we want to start counting each state, province, territory or county that allows or prohibits capital punishment I think the result will become very lopsided very quickly. If we stick to a list of countries that use capital punishment in practice (i.e. actually execute people) the "many" dwindles to a pretty dubious cast of 58 states of whom only 25 carried out executions in 2008. Aside from our friends to the south these states would include such pillars of democracy and justice as:

China

Iraq

Iran

North Korea

Pakistan

Afghanistan

Libya

Sudan

Saudi Arabia

Syria

On the other side of the ledger can be found every "western democracy" of note with the exception of Japan (and India if you want to consider it "western").

There's a very good reason why one list is populated with states whose judicial beliefs are similar to our own and the other is inhabited primarily by states whose concepts of justice are very different from that which would be considered acceptable in Canada.

It's worth thinking about.

Pete