No Way Bro,

[Mitch Cronin]

Fair points IFG. .... I guess a guitar nut seems a little less dangerous to me nevertheless. I'm sure Mr. Gill is a responsible gun owner, however, I remain uncomfortable with the ones who aren't, and it's really hard to know the difference before it's shown up in some rather final way (for some).

[boestar]

I was up in Orillia Yesterday and we stopped in at Elwood Epps Hunting store as I was with a couple of "Gun Nuts" There was an advertisment on the front window from a "Prepping" group in search of a Nurse or Nurse practitioner to join their group.

This activity of Prepping is becoming more common especially in the US. There are the theorists who honestly believe a revolution is coming and I am not sure they are wrong. Maybe not north of the 49th but who knows.

As for "gun Nuts" I like guns, always have. I have been shooting since I was a kid. I used to shoot groundhogs for a local farmer. I also shot targets on a provincial level. I have also had the opprotunity on several occasions to shoot military weapons. I am not a killer or a psychopath it is a sport I enjoy. If I find myself in need of obtaining food in the wild then the skill will come in handy (as long as someone else skins what we kill, That just grosses me out). I presently do not own any weapons but have in the past. I do plan on obtaining a Crossbow in the near future as it is a sport I would like to try. I also go with friends to the range and shoot weapons from small bore handguns all the way up to a .50 Cal (I haven't yet as it's $15/round and I can't bring myself to spend it, I have watched though). Most of the HUNDREDS of people at the range and very friendly people who enjoy the sport. Many will even let you blast a few rounds.

As for the aforementioned Deer hunt. Deer season is used to control deer population and is strictly monitored by the MNR. I agree hunting for pure sport is wrong but if used for food then its not so bad. I enjoy good venecin as much as a beef steak that was raised to be a beef steak.

[DEFCON]

"As for the aforementioned Deer hunt. Deer season is used to control deer population and is strictly monitored by the MNR. I agree hunting for pure sport is wrong but if used for food then its not so bad. I enjoy good venecin as much as a beef steak that was raised to be a beef steak."

Venison is excellent for certain, but giving the MNR (Ministry of No Resources) credit for anything to do with past, present and future deer populations goes way to far.

[Mitch Cronin]

Oi. Hello Peter, I'm afraid you've got me confused with some fictional figure in your mind. I'm not an urbanite (never mind "uber") and I have only a vague notion that a "Latte" must be some special kind of coffee....

I do believe you to be a gun nut, but at least, I hope the respect that others here seem to afford you must come from reason, so I assume you're a responsible gun nut.

I know all my neighbours, which is how I know there aren't any gun nuts among them.

I do feed squirrels, but they have to share the take with blue jays, finches, chipmunks, grackles, the occasional crow.... and others...

The primary difference in our opinions, I suspect, stems from my own belief that we have no more right to life than do all those critters you like to shoot.

I didn't say anything about fawns.... must have been someone else.

...and finally..... I think nobody challenged your typo because nobody GAFF.... You might be the only gun nut here?

[Seeker]

And yet no one has bothered to attempt to deal with the original questions I posted on 27 Sept. Or realized there's no such thing as a .338 papua, that was a spellcheck typo, it's lapua.

Yup, as Mitch said; papua or lapua both or neither could be guns and I'd never know the difference.

[DEFCON]

"Since fawns are born in the spring, how is it possible they're not weaned by fall? Or are you just ignorant of wildlife biology"

You are the ignorant one my friend. Your comments make it easy to conclude that you probably haven't hunted anything other than people and targets. In the alternative, you could also be one of those that spends his time afield completely oblivious to nature and the life cycle of the wildlife you pretend to know something about.

[DEFCON]

I'm not clear as to the point you're trying to make Malcolm.

[DEFCON]

Malcolm

'Fall' is a period encompassing a few months. Your linked information on deer does not provide any information of substance.

Here's the skinny with Whitetails:

A doe can be bred in her first fall.

A doe will generally have one fawn consequent to her first pregnancy and then two thereafter. Three and even four fawns can be produced by older does (greater than ten years).

There are two distinct fall mating periods that are often referred to as the 'early' and 'late' mating periods. Pregnant does will go on to produce their young in two distinct spring batches (early & late).

The early born fawns will be weaned and released to their own devices only when the adult goes into heat, which is usually around the beginning of November. (Note: while gun hunting doesn't begin until early November, the bow hunting lunacy begins much earlier).

The fawns born in the second batch, approximately one month after the first, will remain fully dependant on their mothers until approximately early - mid-December at which time the adult will go into heat and release her young.

I think you can see the theme here now?

If you were to go out and inspect a doe kill on site, you will far more frequently than not find that the dead doe has an active udder. If you keep watching, you'll eventually become aware of the faces of the now doomed orphans peering shyly from the underbrush.

During the annual Michigan slaughter you can see the results of mans handiwork quite clearly; two days after opening day small herds of 30 -75 immature orphaned animals will form and band together for security. Maybe a third are weaned, the rest are definitely not. After another two days, that herd number will be reduced to the third that were weaned. The missing animals will have dehydrated and starved as evidenced by the tiny bodies that can now be found laying dead in the fields. It's all very sporting!

[DEFCON]

Malcolm

You are missing the point by a very wide margin. Fawn deer are being weaned throughout the fall and all its stylized hunting seasons, which includes the period from October up to and including the first week(s) of December. If a doe with fawns is killed or injured during this hunting period (fall), her virtually always un-weaned fawn(s) are absolute toast within a couple of miserable days.

[Seeker]

The fawns born in the second batch, approximately one month after the first, will remain fully dependant on their mothers until approximately early - mid-December at which time the adult will go into heat and release her young.

Do you have anything to back this up? I don't know much if anything about white-tail deer or hunting but in my research around the net I have found one site that says the fawns are weaned after 8-10 weeks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer

and another that says they are weaned at 6 weeks:

http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/whitetaileddeer.htm

You seem to be speaking from experience and I respect that but don't see any corroborating sites. Even if we accept a very late birth - call it mid-June, and a 10 week weaning period we still should see all fawns weaned before the earliest hunting season which is bow hunting in Sept, right?

[deicer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eHr-9_6hCg

[Mitch Cronin]

Yes, by what I quoted there is almost no chance that a unweaned fawn would be left behind if the mother was harvested in the Nov. hunt, some may be but the majority would not be.

http://www.the-whitetail-deer.com/whitetail-deer-fawns.html

Ok, ...as an example of the "experts" you choose to believe, you're using a site created by a guy named Randy, who - as best I can tell - includes no citations with his 'information', and writes, "Over the years I have learned a lot of information about the Whitetail Deer and hope to put it here to help others to learn to hunt what I believe it the greatest most magnificent creature God has given us to enjoy in many ways.".

Am I correct so far?

[actually, the guy seems a wee bit on the "funny" side of sanity with his overt avoidance of the word "kill". ...."Harvest" he repeats, again and again...]

My guess is, Malcolm, that you've assumed a site with an address that clear - "the-white-tailed-deer" dot com - must be full of accurate information? ....But sadly, like so many places on the internet, it's just a guy with a keyboard saying what he thinks. He just happened to grab that domain name before anyone else did.

[Maverick]

Not about white-tailed deer but the animal life cycle nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc

[Mitch Cronin]

Perhaps you should / could do some research yourself! Cheers

Why Malcolm?... It wasn't me with the question. I simply pointed out that your link/cut'n'paste was from a shmuck on the internet, like you and me. So was somewhat worthless in the circumstance.

[J.O.]

Mitch, are you saying there's stuff on the internet that isn't true? Perish the thought!

[Mitch Cronin]

As far as being from a shmuck on the internet and thus being worthless, then I guess then all dialogue on this forum would also be considered to be worthless.

Certainly worthless as proof of anything at all.

[Dropzone]

Half my family are Americans, so after listening to all the debate on the US and guns , IMO I can only describe it (the gun culture) as madness and insanity............

[DEFCON]

Thanks Seeker; it is about personal experience. I hunted whitetails in ever more restrictive ways over a forty year period before I finally ran out of reasons to continue and decided it was time to pack it in. I therefore do not require a keyboard, screen and web address to gain an appreciation for the nature of the beast. I'll say it again; if you want physical proof, go afield during the seasons and visit doe kill sites where you WILL find that the majority of those animals, for whatever the reason, have active udders. An active udder can mean only one thing; un-weaned orphaned fawns are present and like their mother, they too will soon be dead. It's unfortunate, but it would appear that most hunters are unaware of the relationship between does and their fawns, which perhaps permits the individual to psychologically participate in what he might otherwise see as a barbaric form of activity.

[Seeker]

There you go Malcom, DEFCON has provided an expert opinion that the majority of does leave unweaned fawns behind to die. His statement trumps any website you might find and settles it for me.

[Seeker]

Malcolm, you need to get a new eyeglass prescription or read slower; DEFCON never mentions a "group kill" site in any of his posts. He says "doe kill site" meaning the place where a doe happened to be killed. This is not a special or designated spot since that would be impossible and I'm sure he's not talking about groups of hunters somehow trying to arrange shooting their deer in the same spot. He's saying, "if you visit the spot where a doe happened to be killed - this is what you would see", not "if you visit the special deer killing spot - this is what you will see."

[Boney]

The csi folks are probably smiling right now. lol

[Seeker]

Geee. thanks for the translation......

For a statistical analyst you would have to visit a large kill site....

We're trying to tell you there is no such place. Are you sure you understood the translation?

[DEFCON]

"his tale"

You are an arrogant little bugger Malcolm.

[deicer]

Sigh.....

[DEFCON]

Mr. Gill; you're full of quotes and poop. You're so far off the mark with this one that many of your other internet supported arguments with other board members now seem quite questionable.