Questions on the collapse of 3 buildings...

[Mitch Cronin]

If anyone can read this paper:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/...elyCollapse.pdf

By Dr. Steven E. Jones

Physicist and Archaeometrist

...and view this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8076200333701191665

...and not believe that, at the very least, some more serious investigation, by some independent, believable and completely trustworthy body, is warranted.... then you might be one of GWB's farm animals.

There's no need to listen to any far out theories of missiles or missing airplanes, just read that paper, ("It is published [there] by kind permission of the editors. One of the editors, (Prof. Griffin) has explained that there were four reviewers for my paper, all Ph.D’s, two were physicists."), and see that video (I'm only about 40 minutes into it's hour and a half total, and I haven't seen anything I'd call "conspiracist"-like yet.)

There's another video (I viewed it in 9 parts on Youtube) available, of Professor Griffin presenting a talk he calls "Lets Get Empirical", introducing his latest book on the subject, called "Debunking 911 Debunking", and while I think he may have talked a little more with the out-there camp, than I'm comfortable with, I am convinced that a very good series of questions need to be answered.

[edited to add: If you don't want to read that paper, or see that video, if nothing else, fast-forward the video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8076200333701191665 to about 1:09, and see what US Air Force Lt. Col. Dr. Robert Bowman has to say. ... Worth seeing!]

[chockalicious]

Mitch I have read the paper before and have seen it debunked on-line.

I think that the truthers want there to be more to the story than there is.

[Mitch Cronin]

Well that's a hell of a write-off to come with no supporting info whatsoever.?

[chockalicious]

Like the global warming debate it seems to evolve into a links extravaganza.

I give a lot of credence to this:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/1227842.html

With respect to the authior you posted:

http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

[mrlupin]

Funny, I found an article debunking popular mechanics article....

http://www.infowars.com/articles/911/debun...chanics_91.html

The problem with the internet, is the excessive availability of information. Hard to get a straight story when so much conflicting info is available.

This then becomes a media problem....

Since when is Popular Mechanics a serious magazine?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...14123859AAbuteJ

[chockalicious]

Exactly Mr Lupin

This can quickly turn into a googlefest of links posting.

I have read other subjects on infowars and I personally thing that they are a bunch of crackpots who see conspiracy where there is not on a wide range of subjects.

at the end of the day I wil llook at the bonafides of who is writing what and decide what I find credible.

The Loose Change folks and their ilk have not presented enough evidence that is credible to be credible to me.

[Cargo Agent]

There will always be the debunkers and those that want to believe them, just as there are those of us that know the truth when we see it.

[Guest woxof]

It always amazes me in the ridiculous stuff people are willing to believe and post as if credible. If the Nigerian scam artists ever found out these peoples contact numbers...they would have a field day.

It makes you wonder about all the other stuff they post about.

Then again, all is not necessarily lost. Perhaps the Egyptian Aviation accident investigation board(a reflection of its society) might be looking for a few types like this that are willing to believe that the 767 copilot of their national airline never committed suicide on a flight out of New York and the domestic airline 737 crash in Sharm al Shiek could not have been pilot error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Airlines_Flight_604

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

Instead of watching that video, just think of what you could have learned by spending that hour or so reading about some aircraft systems or aircraft incidents instead. There is plenty of accident reports on the web that pilots and mechanics should read up on(my suggestion of the day).

[Mitch Cronin]

Thanks Chock. Have you read Debunking 911 Debunking? I wonder if it's worth a look?...

There are still a few questions left unanswerd... I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation for the molten steel, for instance... ...and the fall of building 7 remains wholly unexplained.

...also, I can't understand the lack of realease of any photographic proof of the bird that hit the pentagon... All security camera footage - but the single one released with nothing but a blur evident - evidently remains under wraps.

[RGT]

The cell phone calls from 30000 feet (or even 10000) have always made me wonder.

...just for starters.

[Canus Chinookus]

*sigh*

[John S.]

The cell phone calls from 30000 feet (or even 10000) have always made me wonder.

...just for starters.

Years ago my F/O had a cell phone that worked from all altitudes that a BAe146 flew.

It was one of those not-quite-as-large-as-a-brick models and would work best if held at the side window (no de-icing) and we were over a city with cell coverage. Back then cell coverage in Canada was not exactly coast to coast.

AH, the good old days - I doubt the new digital cells would allow you to trigger a dozen cell towers at the same time.

PS. I've got to admit that I share the same ponderings as Mitch.

[Moon The Loon]

I've heard of lots of theories, but I still remember the Nova episode that dissected the traditional explanation right down to the engineering drawings and flaws in the construction of the buildings.

As far as the third building goes, the simple fact of knocking out its foundation would lead to a collapse in very short order. Does anybody remember how weakened the subterranean walls holding out the Hudson nearly collapsed which would have flooded much of the subway system in lower Manhattan?

I have no doubt that once the upper floors collapsed, the added weight of impact accelerated the destruction downwards.

I really think any idea of planted charges is so ludicrous, I won't give those websites the time of day.

As far as the cellphone from 30,000 feet goes, I thought the phone used was an onboard pay phone, as in the back of the seat on most airliners these days.

Now, if ya wanna talk about grassy knolls, then maybe we could get somewhere!

[boestar]

A calibrated building drop is an engineering feat in itself. Engineers and experts plan building drops for weeks to ensure the building collapses in on itself and does minimal damage if any to adjacent buildings. Merely knokcing the foundation out will NOT produce a calibrated collapse because there is no control over how the foundation will behave. If one side collapses first the the building will fall to thatr side. simple physics, Gravity works.

All 3 building managed to collapse in an almost perfect manner causing little physical damage to surrounding structures in the process. relatively speaking of course.

The aircraft impact was not centered on the building so why did it collapse straight down? Why did 7 even collapse? There are a lot of holes in the whole thing that just dont seem to add up. dont even get me going on the pentagon thing.

[Moon The Loon]

The biggest problem I have with these other theories is the number of people that would have to be involved. It would number in the hundreds, if not thousands.

It would take only one set of loose lips.

With regards the JFK assasination (it's only fair to drag that up when talking Conspiracy Theory), whatever the truth is, the number of different groups claiming the Truth of the matter has obfuscated a final answer in any of our lifetimes. Perhaps the same gaggle of conspiracy theories about 9/11 will accomplish the same thing.

A lot of the time, the simplest explanation is the best.

Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on this either way other than that GWG, Rumsfeld and several others will go down in history as unprosecuted war criminals, when and if the dust ever settles over 9/11...

[Moon The Loon]

A calibrated building drop is an engineering feat in itself. Engineers and experts plan building drops for weeks to ensure the building collapses in on itself and does minimal damage if any to adjacent buildings. Merely knokcing the foundation out will NOT produce a calibrated collapse because there is no control over how the foundation will behave. If one side collapses first the the building will fall to thatr side. simple physics, Gravity works.

All 3 building managed to collapse in an almost perfect manner causing little physical damage to surrounding structures in the process. relatively speaking of course.

The aircraft impact was not centered on the building so why did it collapse straight down? Why did 7 even collapse? There are a lot of holes in the whole thing that just dont seem to add up. dont even get me going on the pentagon thing.

One other thing about the nature of the collapse of the 2 principle buildings. They DID collapse from the top down. Controlled demolitions tend to destroy the foundations, then making outside supporting walls fall inward using steel cables, thus adding to the vertical drop of the entire building.

Every time I've watched video of a demolition using charges, there have always been puffs or flames visible from the charges. With taller buildings, the progression of those puffs and flames tended to start at the bottom of the structure and work their way upwards. Why have there been no witness accounts of these phenomena with regards at least the two principle buildings? Or have there??

Still too incredible for me!

[Kip Powick]

I'm with "Moon" on this one.......it seems that no matter what happens someone comes up with a "devious plot" undertaken by the govt in power.

Let it go guys.......if you can't reconcile the facts as told to the general public then enjoy all the theories but if you are looking for solice from your troubled thoughts......it ain't gonna happen in your lifetime...

Just don't forget the flight crews and what they went through, and their passengers as well as those on the ground...let that be motivation enough to rid the world of fanatics.

PS..Did Wilkes Booth have a second shooter in position

[deicer]

PS..Did Wilkes Booth have a second shooter in position

Didn't you see him there?

[Mitch Cronin]

How can you let it go when the facts don't match the explanations given? This is too big a deal to just let it go.

At the very least, fast forward that video I linked above to the 109 minute mark and see what the Colonel says.... He's a former head of the DND and an ex fighter pilot.

That's what got me about these latest set of videos and papers I've been seeing... They're NOT all nutbars that are asking for these explanations! Many of them are well educated, sincere folks... There has been no explanation for the molten iron (steel won't melt in the temperatures jet fuel or diesel can get to) You can quite litteraly see molten metal flowing out of one of the buildings before it collapsed, and piles of it were still molten even weeks later... several people reported "loud explosions"... there is no explanation for building number 7 falling at all - if the foundation gave out that would not explain the way it fell at all! Watch the damn video!... there's no answer to how it was that Juliani was told "the buildings are going to come down, so get out of here" (prior to that day, no steel building had ever fallen down because of a fire)... there's been no satisfactory explanation for the "unprecedented" "security power downs" that came in the weeks before 9/11... and in spite of there being oodles of security cameras all over the building and surrounding it, there are no pictures of a plane hitting the pentagon.

The suggestions those questions lead to .... especially when you consider the desires of some in the Bush administration for "a new Pearl Harbour", and the paths that led them all down afterward... shouldn't be "let go". I think a real investigation needs to happen. If that's done, then the questions will be answered, one way or another.

It just may be that we've all been fed a huge steaming pile and GWB and Cheney and the gang should be jailed for murder and treason. (I think they should be charged with treason anyway, for the lies they all told and the actions they took while lying about their reasons.)

[boestar]

I am in agreement with Mitch on this.

If we really want to honour the memories of the Flight Crews and passengers of those aircraft, it would be best to seek the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

My feeling is that the attacks were the method used to go back into Iraq and finish what dear old dad started but never finished.

The american people have been out right lied to for years but are either too dumb or too naive to see it.

[Say Again, Over!]

While I believe it credible to think that the Bush administration might have known of the attacks and even let them happen, it's quite another to blow it all out of proportions and think it was all a humongous conspiracy created by the US government.

As far as the pentagon is concerned, it is indeed too bad that there aren't pictures of the airplane hitting it... BUT THERE IS PLENTY OF PICTURES OF PARTS OF IT AT THE CRASH SITE! Security cameras unfortunately don't record in HD, they take a snapshot every second or so. Some did record pictures but they record a blur as would happen on any camera trying to take a picture of a fast moving jet with too long an exposure.

Mitch, what about the eyewitnesses? Those folks that saw it fly by? What about that taxi driver who got a street light knocked on his car by the thing?

Mitch, where are the passengers and the airplane? On an island with Elvis and Micheal Jackson?

There are plenty of unexplained things out there and sometimes logic by itself isn't enough. Why do tornadoes completely destroy one house and not even touch the next?

Food for continued thought.....

Felix

[John S.]

The American people have been out right lied to for years but are either too dumb or too naive to see it.

Not all of them.

I was invited to a "911Truth" meeting held in Vancouver a couple of years ago. The speaker was a well known and distinguished American who has written extensively on the subject.

It was after that talk I began to wonder about the questions that Mitch brings up.

PS to the poster who says 'too many people would have to be involved' and 'even one set of loose lips' would let out the secret. There is a pretty good example of a project that involved thousands of (government) workers and was kept totally secret. Dig into the 911Truth info and you'll see.

[Azure]

This should keep ya busy Mitch.

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

http://www.ae911truth.org/

The main reason this isn't going away is because people who KNOW and UNDERSTAND their professions, have questions that were never answered.

[chockalicious]

The molten iron question...

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

[Cargo Agent]

The molten iron question...

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

You do know you will never change their minds don't you?