Pacific Coastal Accident

[J.O.]

Just saw on KOMO news that a Pacific Coastal Airlines Grumman Goose has gone down on a flight between Vancouver and Toba Inlet. Initial word is seven fatalaties and one survivor. Condolences to all involved.

[Guest rattler]

Sad.

Seven confirmed dead in B.C. plane crash

Tim Lai, Canwest News Service

Published: Sunday, November 16, 2008

VANCOUVER - Seven people died Sunday after a Pacific Coastal Airlines amphibious aircraft struck a steep hillside on Thormanby Island on B.C.'s Sunshine Coast north of Vancouver.

A lone survivor was initially taken to St. Mary's Hospital in Sechelt before being transferred to Vancouver General Hospital, according to the B.C. Ambulance Service.

Bill Yearwood, spokesman for the Transportation Safety Board (TSB), said late Sunday it's not known what caused the crash. The plane exploded into a mass of burning wreckage, he said, and it's too early to come to any conclusions.

Victoria Rescue Co-ordination Centre spokesman Wayne Bamford said crews are currently on scene recovering bodies from the flight that was destined from Vancouver to Powell River, B.C.

The coast guard began its search when the flight was reported overdue on Sunday.

TSB investigators will visit the site Monday morning to continue the investigation.

The aircraft was heading to a Plutonic Power work camp on Toba Inlet.

Plutonic Power is a green energy company currently developing several run-of-river hydroelectric projects in B.C. Its flagship project, the 196 Mega-watt East Toba and Montrose project, is currently under construction, with operation to begin in 2010.

The Grumman Goose was first flown in 1937. Only 345 were built, but about 60 still operate in coastal areas due to their rugged construction and amphibious capability.

This is the second crash in four months for Pacific Coastal Airlines. In August, a Grumman Goose G21A amphibious plane disappeared 10 minutes after takeoff on a routine flight from Port Hardy on the northern tip of Vancouver Island to a logging camp at Chamiss Bay, near Kyuquot Inlet. The charred wreckage was found hours later in dense brush on a hillside north of Port Alice.

Five people died, while two survived, including Bob Pomponio of Campbell River, B.C., who was able to send text messages from his cellphone to guide rescuers to the remote crash site. Both surviving men were among a crew of six workers with Seaspan International headed to Chamiss Bay to load logs onto barges.

At the time, police had suggested that crash was caused by a stalled engine, but Yearwood said engine malfunction had been ruled out.

A final report has not yet been drafted. Yearwood said it was unfortunate that this is the second crash for Pacific Coastal Airlines in such a short time, but added the TSB has not been called into investigate the company prior to the August crash in recent years.

Vancouver Sun

[Kip Powick]

For those that are not familiar with the aircraft type.

[Moon The Loon]

Geez, not another one...

Sunday 13 August 2008. Look it up.

Good thing SMS is in place at this air carrier.

Deepest condolences to all who perished.

[Don Hudson]

My deepest condolences to family and friends of those lost.

Also condolences to the employees of PacCoastal.

The causes of both accidents will be of great interest to all.

[Maverick]

Sad day indeed, to go through this twice in such a sort period must be devastating.

I hope this doesn't spell the end of the goose but I suspect it will.

My deepest condolences to the family and friends of the victims.

[Guest floatrrr]

Geez, not another one...

Sunday 13 August 2008. Look it up.

Good thing SMS is in place at this air carrier.

Deepest condolences to all who perished.

What does SMS have to do with it? At any rate, it is a tragic event for all involved especially the families and employees. Very sorry for your loss.

[Don Hudson]

floatrr;

What does SMS have to do with it?

As you know, SMS is a "pattern-seeking, anticipatory, preventative" approach to flight safety which is being implemented by Transport Canada over the past five or so years so, as with any carrier which has had two unfortunate accidents in a short period of time, the question is a natural one to ask.

Notwithstanding the tragedy of loss for family, friends, colleagues and the carrier involved, the investigation must proceed so the question of SMS has a great deal to do with the investigation. Are there common factors here and were there patterns in their collected data or were these two random events as sometimes can occur? We don't know what level of SMS they were doing nor do we know what the nature of TC oversight was being carried out. The investigation will determine this along with a host of other questions which form part of the investigative process to find out how and why these tragic accidents occured.

[Guest floatrrr]

It was more the way the statement about SMS was made. The results of the investigation will either provide proof that SMS is working, or more arguments that it is not. If you ask around you may find there are some circles that don't have that much faith in SMS.

[Guest]

Just speculating, and simply that, but both seem to be impact with terrain scenarios. CFIT.

My thoughts to all involved.

Fly safe.....

[13820]

As you know, SMS is a "pattern-seeking, anticipatory, preventative" approach to flight safety which is being implemented by Transport Canada over the past five or so years so, as with any carrier which has had two unfortunate accidents in a short period of time, the question is a natural one to ask.

That's quite a stretch.

How can a pattern be identified before the TSB is even at the site?

I agree it is more the way response was made.

Nothing but circumstance has tied these two events together, and already the SMS process is implicated as part of the problem.

[Vsplat]

SMS has, of course, been heavily treated on other threads. Our discussion here should not distract from the tragedy and suffering amongst the those close to the accidents, be they related to the passengers, crew, or the family of that company.

We tend to de-personalise processes, like SMS, or any of the other policies that have the potential to disfigure lives. The trouble is, an accident is an intensely personal event. I fear that, with SMS, Transport has disconnected itself from this aspect at the most senior levels. When I speak to the inspectors, especially those in the Regions, the tension between their personal commitment to the real people travelling and the policy requirements of the politicised 'system', is palpable. In my view, it is nothing short of cruel to force your staff to watch a system slide toward an accident when they had the tools to directly intervene a short time before.

WRT the 'tools'. While the info-brokers argue that SMS is just another layer, thereby asserting that all of the old tools are still there, it is simply untrue. There are fewer rides, ramps, direct contacts on all fronts. Even the consultation methods are breaking down, explorations of online versions as 'another layer' to the face to face.

So, for all of the claims either way about SMS, I find its fundamentals flawed. There is an assumption that industry is capable of making correct, even virtuous choices without markings on the playing field, that humans are not prone to drift, and that safety can persist without personal engagement to the most senior levels. To this last aspect: Perhaps the DG should attend a meeting with the families of the bereaved and listen to their thoughts and feelings about the current state of oversight.

The time between input and outcome can be very long in this business. We are seeing outcomes now, with resulting course corrections likely to take some time to have effect. For the sake of those who have to live without their loved ones, I hope the change is clear and immediate.

Vs

[Guest rattler]

Does SMS have anything to do with decisions made to operate VFR or does it only deal with mechanical issues. Probably a dumb question but I had to ask.

[AME]

Does SMS have anything to do with decisions made to operate VFR  or does it only deal with mechanical issues.  Probably a dumb question but I had to ask. 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/SMS/FAQ/menu.htm

[Guest rattler]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/SMS/FAQ/menu.htm

And here I was hoping for the "Short Answer".

[RFL]

Without speculation on the cause; this type of flying is very very tough. Ask anyone with experience.

[GTFA]

SMS applies to all levels and departments of aviation operations. We are all stakeholders and share the responsibility with TC to make it work. If you have a concern or have observed or participated in some error or ommision or malfunction of any kind the SMS allows us to put it on file so it can be tracked and referred to in future for analysis and investigation. There are protections in place to prevent recriminations for your involvement, if any. (Provided you are not excluded by the 5 criteria.)

And, just like most other safety systems: You can't tell when it's working but you definately know when it's not.

GTFA

[Guest rattler]

Thanks all.

[J.O.]

Plane crash survivor gets out before explosion

VANCOUVER, British Columbia (AP) — The sole survivor of a plane crash that killed seven others told his rescuers that he scrambled away as the wreckage exploded behind him.

The 35-year-old man is in stable condition at a hospital despite the "significant injuries and burns" he sustained in the crash, Royal Canadian Mounted Police spokesman Cpl. Peter Thiessen said. He declined to identify the man nor the other people on the plane.

Drew McKee, 69, a spokesman for the rescue crew, said the burned and bleeding man made his way to a beach on the remote island off the British Columbia coast where the plane went down Sunday. It was there that a Coast Guard auxiliary crew in a boat saw him emerge from thick brush onto the shore wrapped in a yellow sheet.

The man was waving to them and looked like he was in terrible pain. McKee said his face, chest and hands were burned and he had some gashes on his body.

He said while they whisked the man from Thormanby Island to Halfmoon Bay, on British Columbia's Sunshine Coast, he told them what had happened.

"He didn't have to fight his way out of the plane, because it was in pieces," McKee said. "He got out, and pretty close to after he got out, the plane went up with a whoomph."

McKee said the man had been dozing before the crash and told them he thought he had been knocked out for a few minutes before waking up and scrambling to safety.

"I'm not sure when he got his burns," McKee said. "Anyway he figured he was the only one left."

The man told the crew it took him several hours to make his way down a creek bed to the ocean where the Coast Guard crew spotted him.

The search for the plane began with a call from an area resident to the Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Victoria around 10:40 a.m. The caller reported hearing a plane nearby that sounded in distress.

When an official with Pacific Coastal Airlines called to say that one of their passenger planes was missing, rescuers sprang into action. The Grumman Goose amphibious aircraft was located around 2:15 p.m. local time on the remote, sparsely populated Thormanby Island, west of the picturesque Sunshine Coast

Lieut. Marguerite Dodds-Lepinski, with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre, confirmed the seven deaths.

Spencer Smith, vice president of the family run Pacific Coastal Airlines, said the survivor was a passenger. He was taken to hospital. He said the pilot, who was among the dead, was quite experienced.

Smith said Pacific Coastal would be alerting the families of those killed in the crash. No identities were released.

He said the company has voluntarily suspended its float plane operation until the company has had an opportunity to debrief with all of its employees.

Investigators with Canada's Transportation Safety Board were to try to make it to the crash site Monday, said Bill Yearwood, a TSB spokesman.

Sunday's crash is the second this year involving a Grumman Goose.

In August, five people were killed when another Pacific Coastal Airlines' Goose crashed on Vancouver Island.

The Transportation Safety Board has yet to issue its report on the earlier crash, but investigators have made progress in that probe, said Yearwood.

"We didn't discover any evidence to indicate a malfunction of the aircraft," he said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-11...-survivor_N.htm

[RGT]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...LANE22/TPStory/

[Kip Powick]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...LANE22/TPStory/

Interesting article but one point was missed.......................who has the ultimate responsibility for accepting and flying the mission ??

We all know the answer, and we all can quote "outside" influences but .....................who has the ult......?

That is the reality-check of this profession we call "flying".

[Don Hudson]

That is the reality-check of this profession we call "flying".

Absolutely, Kip.

Sometimes decisions which seemed okay at the time turn out to be bad. As someone's quote at the bottom of their post says, it takes a few dozen hours to learn how to fly but it takes a lifetime to learn when not to.

We may be certain (or at least must hope) that SMS will be part of the investigation to either clear any possible relationship with the accident or establish it so fixes can be implemented.