MD 83 down in Turkey

[Kip Powick]

All 56 people onboard a Turkish plane that crashed in southern Turkey early Friday are believed to have been killed, according to the airline's chief executive officer. The cause of the crash is not yet known.

Rescuers reach the Atlasjet plane which has crashed in southern Turkey.

"Search groups have not seen any survivors as of now," said Atlasjet Airlines CEO Tuncay Doganer. Investigating authorities have located the plane's cockpit voice and flight data recorders, according to Turkey's civil aviation authority.

The MacDonnell Douglas 83, which left Istanbul for Isparta at 00.50 a.m. local time (22.50 GMT Thursday), went down in a mountainous region north of the village of Keciborlu, just as it was preparing to land at Isparta, Doganer said.

He added that the pilot had radioed the tower, saying he was starting his descent. Watch CNN report on the plane crash. »

But the flight, which was carrying 49 passengers and seven crew, never arrived at Isparta airport, which is around 315 km (195 miles) southwest of Ankara, disappearing at around 2 a.m. local time.

According to the Dogan news agency, a transcript of the conversation between the Isparta control tower and the pilot revealed no indication of trouble.

The pilot is said to have told the tower: "Isparta tower, we are inbound" at 1:36 a.m., according to the transcript. The tower then replied: "Understood, Atlasjet. Continue to approach."

Doganer said that conditions at the time of the crash were good. "There was no rain or wind," he said. "The weather could not have been better."

He added that the flight's pilots had just returned from training and were extremely experienced. "It is not a point of issue that the pilots were sleepless or restless."

Doganer said that rescue teams had experienced problems in reaching the crash site due to the high ground. Video shows the fuselage of the plane largely intact but broken into at least three pieces, with the tail and cockpit separated from the body of the aircraft. There appeared to be no evidence of a fire.

The Anatolia news agency reported that the site, around seven miles from the airport, is strewn with debris and passengers' personal belongings. The bodies of some passengers were still strapped in their seats; elsewhere the site was littered with body parts.

The agency added that heavy machinery was being used to remove trees and allow easier access to the area.

The governor for Isparta, Semsettin Uzun, said that the site of the crash did not seem to be on the plane's usual route, the agency reported. "It is impossible to understand how the plane landed there."

Families and friends of those on board the plane have headed to airports at Istanbul and Isparta for any updates, while others have tried to reach the crash site itself.

Turkish media has published the names of those onboard the plane.

The Associated Press reported that Engin Arik, a renowned nuclear physics professor at Bosporus University, Istanbul, was among those killed.

She was part of a delegation of academics who were scheduled to attend a conference at Isparta university.

Ali Ceylan said that his daughter-in-law, Melike Ceylan, 22, his six-week-old grandson Caner, and his son's mother-in-law had all been killed as they returned home to Isparta, the agency reported.

Ceylan said that he had been due to meet his grandson, who was born in Istanbul, for the first time. "He died before we were able to see his face. It's very hard for us. It's enough to make us go mad," the agency reported him as saying.

Ceylan's son, who serves in the police, was in a state of shock and had been given tranquilizers, he added.

Doganer said managers from the company will depart for Isparta later today with relatives of those who were onboard the plane.

Atlasjet leased the plane from Worldfocus Airlines, whose pilots were flying it, Doganer said.

Can Ertuna, of CNN affiliate station CNN Turk, said that Atlasjet was a relatively new company and that none of its flights had been involved in such a serious incident before.

In August of this year two hijackers held passengers hostage on an Atlasjet flight before giving themselves up, while in 2005 an Atlasjet plane left the runway due to wintry conditions. There were no reported injuries from either incident.

[Moon The Loon]

Very strange accident. Video reports show emergency exits opened. Perhaps by rescue crews...

Otherwise, has CFIT written all over it.

Very sad accident.

[Mitch Cronin]

Is that a difficult place to get into? Isparta?

[Kip Powick]

Is that a difficult place to get into? Isparta?

This is from Google Earth. The airport is in the lower RH corner. Apparently the aircraft crashed north ogf the village of Keciborlu, is shown on the map and you can see that it is very mountainous in that region. I flew over the area but never landed there but just looking at the photo would lead me to believe it would be a "different" approach and would be something like going into Kelowna, or Trail BC.

I would go along with Moon the Loon and speculate CFIT.

[Don Hudson]

We'll see if the aircraft was equipped with EGPWS, (or even GPWS - although that would be highly unusual if it wasn't). I wonder if there may some similarities to the AA757 accident near Buga, Columbia twelve years ago next month.

[Moon The Loon]

Looking at the more recent video and the lack of evidence of fire, it may be an even more insidious fuel starvation, forced landing. Probably be a long time before any reliable detail becomes known. And yes, the terrain there is very inhospitable.

[Don Hudson]

Photo from above:

The wreckage appears somewhat laid out like the One Two Go MD88 accident and the BAE Trident test-flight super-stall accident of 1966 although the vertical velocity was very high in the latter. Like the others, this accident appears to be a low forward speed, moderate rate of descent accident (not high) judging by the relative intact appearance of the fuselage fore and aft of the wings, with a significant yawing moment. Fairly wide distribution of smaller parts perhaps indicating a high rotation speed. As such it may not be a "classic CFIT" and EGPWS or GPWS may not have assisted in avoiding the accident. Wings are "intact", relatively speaking, also indicating relative lack of forward speed which may have maintained the integrity of the fuel tanks, perhaps preventing fire. The flaps appear to be extended to an initial setting, - not in landing config, but not retracted.

[newgirl]

Sorry, stupid question but what is CFIT?

[Maverick]

Controlled flight into terrain.

In other words "why is that damn horn going off?"

[Spinnaker]

I'm not sure and that's why I'm asking but was the last CFIT accident Cali, Columbia with the AA 757?

[Vsplat]

Interesting data Don.

Tough to speculate on this, especially since there are so many possible human factors in play. I have my suspicions. Any indication yet as to whether the aircraft was in a bank (or recovering from same) at impact?

Let's hope the relatively low speeds involved yield an intact and properly maintained FDR.

-Vs

[Kip Powick]

I'm not sure and that's why I'm asking but was the last CFIT accident Cali, Columbia with the AA 757?

That is one that we all remember but there have been others. Even the Twin Otter out west in '96 was classified as a CFIT.

The one near Cali is classified as a CFIT but the definition of CFIT can be a bit blurry at times.

The official definition is...............

CFIT occurs when an airworthy aircraft under the control of the flight crew is flown unintentionally into terrain, obstacles or water, usually with no prior awareness by the crew.

However, I would assume that if the crew realized, at the last moment that they were in the wrong area and attempted to rectify the mistake and didn't accomplish the aim, then the accident would be classified as CFIT , as well as loss of situational awareness by the crew.

CFIT...to me was just being totally unaware that you were about to crash in a millisecond. The guys near Cali did try to rectify, but were too low and wrong configuration, I think, so it was sorta un-CFIT ...in my mind.....but again, the catch word in the definition is "usually" so the official designation for the accident was CFIT.

Don H. is probably more up to speed on this interpretation.

[Don Hudson]

Vsplat;

I believe the recorders have been recovered; not sure if they're on their way to the US yet, (or if the US will be the ones to read them). Under ICAO Annex 13 there will be US observers on any investigation team. So, no data on flight conditions.

Kip;

That's as good a definition as I've run across. There's a very similar one in an FAA report on CFIT accident in general aviation,

"A CFIT accident occurs when an airworthy aircraft, under the control of a pilot, is flown into terrain (water or obstacles) with inadequate awareness on the part of the pilot of the impending disaster."

The idea is to be able to categorize clearly enough so that accident data is consistent and investigative procedures can be properly targeted. You're right - the Buga accident was classified as CFIT because, while the circumstances which led to the collision with terrain were classified as crew/human error, the absence of situational awareness led to an unexpected collision with terrain.

This was not a high-speed collision with terrain however. The aircraft was likely "not flying" but descending rapidly in a relatively level attitude, perhaps with a yawing moment, (for those unfamiliar with the term, yawing means "turning left or right", but in this case the aircraft was likely in a flat pitch attitude), circumstances which usually imply a loss of control.

The path of the aircraft or the regime of flight isn't known yet so we don't know whether the accident occurred in descent to the runway or (for whatever reason) on a go-around. I doubt if there is a radar-track available. No radio call from the crew means that whatever happened was a surprise and happened swiftly.

None of this is speculation in the sense of "guessing" what led to the accident. This is coming to conclusions as evidenced by the wreckage layout only. There is no indication as to why any of this occurred as it did, which would be speculation.

[Don Hudson]

Given photos now available this may be a classic CFIT accident after all. Photos show an initial "clipping" of a hill with the tail some distance from the main fuselage.

[Mitch Cronin]

Given photos now available this may be a classic CFIT accident after all. Photos show an initial "clipping" of a hill with the tail some distance from the main fuselage.

Can you post a link to some photos for me?

[Azure]

Here ya go Mitch.

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthre...75&page=4&pp=25

[newgirl]

Was the TCA aircraft that crashed into the mountain near Chilliwack in the late '50's considered a CFIT?

Among the passengers were some of the Riders coming back from a game in Vancouver. Pieces of the wreckage were found 45 years later by a mountain climber.

Wasn't it also the first major crash that TCA had?

[Don Hudson]

newgirl;

Good question - yes, TCA 810 would have been classified as a CFIT accident. The aircraft had lost one engine and was on a turn-back heading towards Vancouver when it struck the peak. There are a number of links to the accident and a book has been written about it. One interesting link is, Anniversary of the Mt. Slesse crash

Friends and I ahve been to the site many times now; one friend knew the Captain of the flight and wanted to make the hike as a way of honoring his former CO in Air Cadets. Its a beautiful hike in late summer/early winter before the snowfall. Each time is a moving experience. Here's a b&w I took in November of 2003...

[Don Hudson]

A few more from various hikes....at the memorial at the base of Slesse. (there is another memorial on the road up, closer to Chilliwack).

[Don Hudson]

Merlin engine...

[Don Hudson]

The hike is from the east side of Slesse. When at the memorial, turn around to face the east and this is the view...

[Don Hudson]

Reference the Turkish accident, here's the photo that was mentioned:

[Mitch Cronin]

Wow! ...to all of it... Thanks Don.

[yul07]

Don how long is the hike up, and where is the trail head?

thanks,...

[Don Hudson]

The Slesse hike is 2.5hrs up on a steady climbing trail. Its a bit complicated to describe the location of the trailhead but the access road is up Chilliwack Lake Road, just past Slesse Creek, on the right side heading east. Time driving to the parking spot is about 20 minutes at most. The road can be impassable unless the vehicle has high clearance and 4WD. Best time is late August to end of October. The book has some good info; also google Slesse for further info. It's a pilgrimmage, not a hike, in truth...