global solution

[skyline]

ALPA has decided to move on after global solution has failed. Perfect timing for "the race to the bottom 2009".

[milehighclub]

Where did you get that

ACPA and ALPA reps are still talking to each other and as a matter of fact, the relation between our two groups has never been that good ...

So, are you trying to stir the pot or do you have anything to share with us ?

[skyline]

No I’m not trying to stir the pot, as I’m an advocate to the global solution knowing it will take some give and take from both sides. This came from an internal memo from ALPA. The door is always opened for discussion however felt that progress has come to a stand still and must get on with contract negotiation for 2009.

[milehighclub]

Got the same memo...

I know that every member of the ACPA/ALPA team will benefit (short or long term) from such an agreement but, you know, it takes time to admit the obvious. I have faith in the process and both sides to come up with something intelligent. Again, it's part of the game to move forward one day and back the other: it's still a dialogue. Now, if one side decides that it's over, there's nothing more we can do than prepare ourselves for the worst: two separate strategies leading for more concessions and frustrations

From what i know now (could change tomorrow) is: JAZZ ALPA reps are ready to go forward, as they gave it all to the ACPA side ( choice of representation, dual BOTL with no negative effects on any pilot, etc...)

Maybe it's more than ACPA actually asked for Too good to be true and trying to figure out where's the trap ...

As long as good faith is involved; i'm still in

[skyline]

I agree. The problem we have is, ACPA feels they will not be greatly affected at this point, so why have GS as a priority. The only time they will continue meaningful dialogue is if they become negatively affected. I don’t know what this means to integrity, but I’m sure they, in their own minds, have an explanation. Having said that, I really don’t feel (they) are all the same, as I know many would like to be pro-active.

[exGXer]

"The problem we have is, ACPA feels they will not be greatly affected at this point, so why have GS as a priority."

How many times will it take ACPA to realize they DO need a GS, or they will be fighting to hold onto what they have...as has been demonstrated in the not so distant past. But then again ACPA sure has been consistant in their shortsightedness.

There is an old saying about remembering the past or you will be bound to re-live it...or something like that.

[Johnny]

I don't think you can blame ACPA on this one. I think they underestimated the fact, that there was a third party.....they forgot to invite.

The Company

When the Company responded with; "what part of never, don't you understand,

....wait a minute, if you want to open the collective agreement, maybe we can talk."

Reality hit home.

[Guest rattler]

Since the topic is a "Global Solution". Is anyone from Westjet or Ac or ACJazz attending this meeting?? Reason I ask it the press release talks about key representatives of airline pilot unions from the United States and Canada.

Attention Business Editors, News Editors, Travel Writers:

Allied Pilots Association, Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association Co-Hosting Collective Bargaining Roundtable

    'Meetings give pilot union leaders opportunity to share information and

plan negotiating strategy on a regular basis'

    FORT WORTH, TEXAS, June 5 /CNW/ - Airline pilot union officials from

across North America are gathered in Dallas, Texas for a two-day meeting that

began this morning focused on discussions of airline industry economics,

contractual trends and an analysis of current collective bargaining pressures.

    The Allied Pilots Association (APA) and the Southwest Airlines Pilots'

Association (SWAPA) are co-hosting the meeting comprised of the elected

leaders, negotiating committee chairs and other key representatives of airline

pilot unions from the United States and Canada.

    "Pilots have said it loud and clear--the time has arrived to restore the

profession," said APA President Captain Ralph Hunter. "These meetings provide

an invaluable opportunity to share information and plan strategy in bargaining

for our fair share of the financial rewards generated by our industry's return

to profitability."

    In all, some 70 union officials representing pilots from 16 different

carriers are participating in the roundtable-style discussions.

    "Despite the fact that we fly for many different carriers, it's evident

that we share many common concerns as we seek to protect and enhance our

pilots' career prospects," said SWAPA President Carl Kuwitzky.

    Roundtable participants take turns hosting the twice-yearly meetings. The

Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) hosted the most recent gathering this past

February in Washington, D.C.

    "Our profession is dedicated to improving airline pilot pay and working

conditions," said ALPA President Captain John Prater. "We learned after 9/11

that a unified effort is our only option to reach that goal."

    Roundtable participants emphasized that as management at various carriers

has awarded themselves bonuses, stock grants and other forms of compensation

during the past couple of years, pilots' needs--both financial and

quality-of-life--must be addressed as well.

    Founded in 1963, the Allied Pilots Association--the largest independent

pilot union in the U.S.--is headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas. APA represents

the 12,000 pilots of American Airlines (the nation's largest passenger

carrier), including 2,688 pilots on furlough. The furloughs began shortly

after the September 11, 2001 attacks. Also, several hundred American Airlines

pilots are on full-time military leave of absence serving in the armed forces.

The union's Web site address is www.alliedpilots.org.

    Founded in 1978, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association is an

independent union representing the 5,400-plus pilots of Southwest Airlines.

SWAPA is based in Dallas, Texas. The union's Web site is www.swapa.org.

    MULTIMEDIA AVAILABLE:

http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/mmg.cgi?eid=5419354

[Dork]

Probably right on the money Johnny.

[milehighclub]

I don't think you can blame ACPA on this one. I think they underestimated the fact, that there was a third party.....they forgot to invite.

The Company

When the Company responded with; "what part of never, don't you understand,

....wait a minute, if you want to open the collective agreement, maybe we can talk."

Reality hit home.

You know what ? If ACPA and ALPA are serious about it, they will just turn around and say: " We can teach you how to say yes, if you need to ..."

United is the key word here. Divided, it's another story

[Johnny]

"United" is the key word, however, it has a cost. We've been at this crossroad many times.

From the Mainline perspective the list of items, (to be recovered,) in 2009 is long....and distinguished.

It's not unlike the fact that our Newhire Pilots make poverty wages. By the time Negotiations start, entry level wages are long forgotten.

For us to force a solution on the Company we would have to be prepared to Strike over it.

[Homerun]

All of this assumes that a common seniority list is required. I don't agree. A negotiation strategy can be developed and executed in a cooperative manner without merging seniority lists.

[skyline]

What exactly do you mean Homerun.

[Dork]

Perhaps he might be suggesting that we have both unions agree on the wage structure for both airlines on the entry level jets at AC and the top end jets at Jazz. This cooperative effort for 2009 would benefit both groups at least in principle.

We already know that there will be no real negotiation with any corporation in North America right now because we are in a situation where most companies are owned by vulture or hedge funds.

Give it to the arbitrator and role the dice....the govt's are in cohoots with the managements so no raise...strip pensions and lay the groundwork for federal pension reforms. The workers who will get hosed will retire or die in 25 years so who cares.

Ask yourself...how may Chrysler employees who saved the company in the 80's are still around to talk of their pension theft at age 50....seems to me the vultures just bought them again to, "unlock the value"... for the new shareholder.

Let the workers eat cake.

[Johnny]

The "Airline Pilots" of today, are the future....

"Airport Commisionaires" and "Walmart Greeters" of tomorrow.

If the existing Airline Management's (Globally) have their way!

[Leading Edge]

Perhaps he might be suggesting that we have both unions agree on the wage structure for both airlines on the entry level jets at AC and the top end jets at Jazz. This cooperative effort for 2009 would benefit both groups at least in principle.

We already know that there will be no real negotiation with any corporation in North America right now because we are in a situation where most companies are owned by vulture or hedge funds.

Give it to the arbitrator and role the dice....the govt's are in cohoots with the managements so no raise...strip pensions and lay the groundwork for federal pension reforms. The workers who will get hosed will retire or die in 25 years so who cares.

Ask yourself...how may Chrysler employees who saved the company in the 80's are still around to talk of their pension theft at age 50....seems to me the vultures just bought them again to, "unlock the value"... for the new shareholder.

Let the workers eat cake.

Very tru for 'Non-mobile workers' but Pilots have a very mobile and desirable skillset - in the rest of the world. There will come a point very shortly, where overseas wages become very attractive. AC probably does not want to be a training ground for other carriers.

I already know of Airlines in Europe who are ground Aircraft due to Pilot shortages, and they are about to raise there pay...

LE

[Homerun]

Skyline, allow me to explain further. A lot of people wrongly assumed that the GS talks were only about merging seniority lists, that this was a requirement to co-operate in negotiations. This wasn't the case, at least from the ACPA committees perspective.

In fact, I personally feel that both groups should have agreed upfront that they would not discuss merging lists. This would have allowed talks to flow to other areas of common interest without digging up old wounds.

Co-operation could be as simple as agreeing on "this is our flying, this is your flying, now lets go into negotiations with a common bargaining strategy in order to achieve the highest possible wages and working conditions for each group"

imo

[skyline]

Thanks for the reply Homerun. If I read you correctly. We Keep our present seats and equipment (Dash 8 Cpt for example) and protect flying. The regionals stay where they are at the bottom and mainline stay where they are at the top. Nothing has changed. Sorry if I dont catch on to what you are saying but I just returned from a block from hell and not the sharpest at this time.

[DEFCON]

"Very tru for 'Non-mobile workers' but Pilots have a very mobile and desirable skillset - in the rest of the world. There will come a point very shortly, where overseas wages become very attractive. AC probably does not want to be a training ground for other carriers.

I already know of Airlines in Europe who are ground Aircraft due to Pilot shortages, and they are about to raise there pay..."

So is everyone going to leave North America in quest of a big oversea's pay packet? How long do you think it'll be before wacon there looks like it does in this part of the world? Although the expat market does pay fairly well, it too isn't what it once was?

[.70 mach]

"ALPA has decided to move on after global solution has failed. Perfect timing for "the race to the bottom 2009".

Me thinks that the Jazz group will have more to consider come 2009 or maybe even 2015 when then end of the capacity purchase agreement arrives.

Jazz flying into headwinds

Leonard Zehr, June 7, 2007 at 1:58 PM EDT

Jazz Air Income Fund could face headwinds next year when rate negotiations begin with Air Canada to cover the 2009-11 period. An existing capacity purchase agreement (CPA) with Air Canada now transfers a significant amount of operating risk from Jazz to Air Canada, “generating healthy enough margins to support Jazz’s distribution” to unitholders, according to Scotia Capital analyst James David.

He figures Jazz’s current distributions are relatively safe for 2007 and 2008. But the “integrity of these distributions could be at risk when rate negotiations with Air Canada get under way next year,” which could render “the investment story unattractive,” he writes.

The current CPA was put in place by ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. to maximize the value of the Jazz spinoff, he argues. But with ACE winding down and the federal government’s dismantling of the income trust sector, “Air Canada will have absolutely no incentive to continue rewarding Jazz unitholders with the equivalent of up to 15 per cent of Air Canada’s normalized annual [capital spending].”

Mr. David also lowered his estimates for Jazz’s earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization and rent (EBITDAR), reflecting “less aggressive assumptions for Jazz’s margin on scheduled flights revenue,” which reduced his target price to $8.50 from $9. And a lower implied rate of return prompted a Jazz downgrade to “sector underperform” from “sector perform.”

The units are trading at $8.57 on the TSX Thursday, down 14 cents or 1.6 per cent

[Tango Foxtrot]

As noted above by .70 mach;

Every body to the starting gate, the race is about to begin!

Looks like our management team is in place. Now all pilots put on your gloves and start to go after each other, because this time we want blood!

Honestly, the bottom isn't that far away. How much could it hurt anyway?

The next article will be about how poorly Air Canada is doing, and so on and so on...

Just a thought!

Tony!

[skyline]

Me think so too. If not PCA then what? It's all wide open in 2009. Mainline under ACE still loosing money on domestic routes, Jazz spun off or dismantled, GE, DB and Cerberus. all tip toe away after lining their pockets. What a warm and fuzzy feeling. Lets all enjoy the up swing but lets also prepare for the down swing. Me thinks.

[John S.]

Me thinks that the Jazz group will have more to consider come 2009 or maybe even 2015 when then end of the capacity purchase agreement arrives.

This might not be all bad news.

Perhaps if Jazz become an "unrestricted free agent" it will have an chance to look at other opportunities. Perhaps not relying on AC for most of it's load factor might just be the thing it needs to take the next growth step. Tell my again what's preventing Jazz from growing into a 37 operation right now?

Of course there is that matter of who owns the airplanes and all them parts. BUT who'se to say what the future holds? . . .

[Jumpy]

Tell my again what's preventing Jazz from growing into a 37 operation right now?

I think that independance air started that already and you know where that went. Has there ever been a regional carrier that made it "on their own."

[DEFCON]

"Has there ever been a regional carrier that made it "on their own.""

GX