Homerun Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Upperdeck, you hit the nail on the head. You state that AC and CAIL could have changed things. That is the key. AC did not control it's own destiny. The other groups in CALPA could outvote them, and did. The rest is history. Defcon, what you are saying is not correct. As part of a GS, Jazz will not accept ACPA. The only way for a GS to happen is for AC to join ALPA or some sort of hybrid solution. That is why the representation committee is exploring ALPA, to see if there is a workable solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 " some sort of hybrid solution" Such as a "linkage" agreement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 "The other groups in CALPA could outvote them, and did. The rest is history." Homerun...it would really have been quite something to have allowed the AC pilots complete dominance over a union of pilots (CALPA) comprised of many different airline pilot groups. IE CAIL, Red Regionals, Blue Regionals, Bearskin, etc. But come to think of it, if Picher had been accepted by the AC pilots, would not the AC pilots combined with the other Red Regionals on a single seniority list not have completely dominated CALPA? Thus resolving the AC pilots' biggest complaint regarding CALPA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFL Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Homerun...it would really have been quite something to have allowed the AC pilots complete dominance over a union of pilots (CALPA) comprised of many different airline pilot groups. IE CAIL, Red Regionals, Blue Regionals, Bearskin, etc. But come to think of it, if Picher had been accepted by the AC pilots, would not the AC pilots combined with the other Red Regionals on a single seniority list not have completely dominated CALPA? Thus resolving the AC pilots' biggest complaint regarding CALPA? How true Duke. The AC component ran CALPA by and for themselves from inception until the 80's. When they were no longer in the majority and could not always have their way they threw a temper tantrum and left to form ACPA (Air Canada Pirates Association). They managed a sweet deal with the wine lady (I am not going to get into how that happened) but since then their fraudulent tactics have been disallowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 "You state that AC and CAIL could have changed things. That is the key. AC did not control it's own destiny. The other groups in CALPA could outvote them, and did. The rest is history." This would mean that the original CALPA, composed entirely of AC pilots, were clearly stupid people for fostering the team concept amongst air carrier pilots vs that of the sluggfest we all enjoy so much today? BTW, AC did control its own future in more than one way. With regard to the Picher saga; the declaration to merge was initiated by the AC pilots more than once. It is now obvious that the AC groups true intention was to mislead and manipulate the situation to achieve maximum personal benefit regardless of the cost to others. The second time around no one could just sit back and openly watch the AC group achieve its personal bargaining objective and cancel the process without regard to the consequences to others. That's when the AC pilots left the family to rule upon and over themselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Sorry Defcon, but that is just a load of self serving crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 HR My message may have been descriptive and you may not like it but, the "facts" of said message cannot be disputed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrrr Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 "a "representational committee" to explore the mechanisms to ensure adherence to its "democratic principles" within the ALPA structure" UD I'm not certain but, I believe the acpa is looking for a "linkage" agreement with the alpa? IMO, if linkage was achieved acpa would have the best of both worlds. It could employ whatever persuasive approach possible within ALPA so as to keep Jazz down come contract 2009. Should the going get tough, acpa will also have the option to leave town and claim the alpa violated its democratic principles. Not very likely. If the ACPA is given any membership priviliges not afforded to the rest of the ALPA, there will be a serious misrepresentation law suit. Don't think there is anything in the ALPA constitution about "linkage" or "hybrid" solutions. You are a member... or you are not. Nice try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 The AC MEC had "privileges" within CALPA. Votes were weighted. It wasn't enough (apparently) and so---"Poof! We're gone!!" Should there have been a "serious misrepresentation lawsuit" because the ACPG had "membership privileges not afforded to the rest of the [CALPA] group."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrrr Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 The AC MEC had "privileges" within CALPA. Votes were weighted. It wasn't enough (apparently) and so---"Poof! We're gone!!" Should there have been a "serious misrepresentation lawsuit" because the ACPG had "membership privileges not afforded to the rest of the [CALPA] group."? I don't know... maybe. Does CALPA exist anymore? NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I don't know... maybe. Does CALPA exist anymore? NO. A History of CALPA Canada's Aviation Hall of Fame "Unselfishly they showed the way" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Canadian Air Line Pilots Association (CALPA) "The Canadian Air Line Pilots Association has made unique contributions to the advancement of Canadian and International air transport over a span of half a century." --Belt of Orion Award citation, 1988 CALPA was formed on December 1, 1937, to consolidate airline pilots' views regarding aviation concerns, with the authority to voice them when necessary. In 1943, on the initiative of CALPA, an agreement of affiliation was signed between the Canadian, British and American Air Line Pilots Associations to promote the orderly development of international civil aviation. This affiliation was the fore-runner of the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Association (IFALPA), co-founded by CALPA in 1948. At that time, IFALPA represented the pilots of 65 nations, with CALPA as its second largest member. The Federation's mandate is to consolidate the opinion of its members on a wide variety of topics that concern aviation technology and safety, and present these to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), the International Air Transport Association (IATA), Interpol, and governments. In 1976 bilingual traffic control was instituted at some Canadian airports. Spirited opposition by CALPA arose from the fact that it was a political decision with little regard for safety due to a lack of clear understanding of communications by unilingual pilots. CALPA helped to ensure that the policy was not instituted until procedures were developed to safely govern it. The development process took most of two years and a CALPA member was continuously present. A very important division of CALPA worked in the technical and air safety field. Several committees at the local and executive council levels dealt with safety concerns and accident investigation. In 1956 CALPA's Safety Chairman and a Trans-Canada Airlines engineer graduated from the Accident Investigation course at the University of Southern California. They became the first trained accident investigators in Canada. In 1979 the Dubin Commission was formed to inquire into aviation safety in Canada. CALPA was represented throughout, and the inquiry required major effort from CALPA's Technical and Air Safety Division, which presented 22 witnesses and seven complete briefs during the 116 days of hearings. CALPA had great influence on the many benefits to aviation that resulted from the Dubin hearings, such as the creation of the Canadian Aviation Safety Board, the independent accident investigation agency whose establishment CALPA had long been promoting. CALPA worked tirelessly for four years to persuade the Canadian government to ratify The Hague and Montreal Conventions against hijacking. Thus security was enhanced at Canadian airports. CALPA's Aeromedical Committee worked for many years to obtain a more enlightened attitude by the airlines and the authorities toward pilot medical fitness. As a result of the work of this committee, many highly trained pilots have been retained and have been able to continue their chosen profession. CALPA has influenced the development of air transportation in Canada in a number of other ways. It has had impact on development of procedures for fire fighting, rescue work, and airport disaster planning. It has been active in the study of bird strike hazards, has played a major role in formulating procedures for the handling of dangerous goods, produced a booklet on the function of an aircraft commander as a peace officer, and has at all times worked for a safer and more efficient air transportation system. Early in its history, the Association began publication of a quarterly magazine, The Pilot, a widely respected periodical. CALPA became a respected voice in aviation and thus fulfilled the aims of its founders, which were to consolidate and present the professional views of the airline pilot on his/her occupation. In 1996, Air Canada Pilots left CALPA and formed their own organization, ACPA. The remaining members of CALPA then arranged a merger with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), which took effect on February 1, 1997. ALPA's head office is in Herndon, Virginia, U.S.A. The Belt of Orion Award for Excellence was conferred on the Canadian Air Line Pilots Association (CALPA) in 1988. http://www.cahf.ca/Members%20and%20Belt%20...Orion/CALPA.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Defcon, what you are saying is not correct. As part of a GS, Jazz will not accept ACPA. The only way for a GS to happen is for AC to join ALPA or some sort of hybrid solution. That is why the representation committee is exploring ALPA, to see if there is a workable solution. Not quite right ... JAZZ GSC did put everything on the table to go forward and form one entity before 2009 negots, including ACPA representation for the Jazz group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrrr Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 A History of CALPA http://www.cahf.ca/Members%20and%20Belt%20...Orion/CALPA.htm Right. CAIL merged or was rescued by AC. Does CAIL exist anymore? NO. All the regionals merged. Do they exist anymore? NO,now it's JAZZ. Thanks for the history lesson. My point? ALPA has existing members whose interests must be protected above all others, especially the ACPA. Wanna merge with ALPA? Sure, read the ALPA merger policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Milehigh, my information is that ACPA representation is a complete non-starter for the Jazz group. That comes from someone at the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Milehigh, my information is that ACPA representation is a complete non-starter for the Jazz group. That comes from someone at the table. Got the info from up above and 100% sure of my source: i think you've been given distortioned info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I'm sure of my source also. If Jazz is willing to accept ACPA then why would ACPA waste time investigating the ALPA option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I'm sure of my source also. If Jazz is willing to accept ACPA then why would ACPA waste time investigating the ALPA option? Only thing i could say at this point: ACPA MEC is not ready yet to move forward (for different reasons, as you would understand, should remain confidential) It would be very beneficial for both sides to share a common goal and speak as one voice for '09 but, you know what ? If ACPA is not ready at this point, we'll just play alone in our sandbox and fight for our best interest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 "ACPA is not ready at this point, we'll just play alone in our sandbox and fight for our best interest" Which is what everyone would expect anyway, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Only thing i could say at this point: ACPA MEC is not ready yet to move forward Would that would be the same MEC which is in the process of banning all retirees from access to the ACPA website as well as the ACPA forum, much to the chagrin of all retirees, and about 95% of the present active ACPA members that post on the ACPA "private" forum.?? The lawn is dieing...there are no grass roots. Do the words dictatorial and autocratic fit the present MEC regime? Sheeesh !! ...jus' passin' through...back to summer fun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Would that would be the same MEC which is in the process of banning all retirees Sorry for the error...the process has been completed. Retirees banned effective 09 July. I guess being rebuffed by the courts during the last Seniority JR in June has the ACPA MEC looking for more ways to really PO all the members....... serving and not serving...how sad, how petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Would that would be the same MEC which is in the process of banning all retirees Sorry for the error...the process has been completed. Retirees banned effective 09 July. I guess being rebuffed by the courts during the last Seniority JR in June has the ACPA MEC looking for more ways to really PO all the members....... serving and not serving...how sad, how petty. So, I guess we can look forward (and I mean that) to seeing more of your posts on this site. How is your cruising going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Speaking of petty Kip, why would you mention the seniority issue in your post? The pot and kettle are both black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Speaking of petty Kip, why would you mention the seniority issue in your post? The pot and kettle are both black. Hey homey.......... Don't shoot the messenger...and WHY would I post it???.... as far as I have "seen".... neither ACPA or the OAC merger committee put out any info on the latest waste of union funds ...but then again how would I know, as I don't have access to anything "red" anymore. If I knew how to post a sound effect for the implosion of ACPA and especially the MEC...I would. ACPA Executive = a dark hole.. surrounded by a vaccuum,. Have a nice summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 So, I guess we can look forward (and I mean that) to seeing more of your posts on this site. How is your cruising going? Hi "Rattler".. Well I never did post much on the ACPA forum, I think I had a total of 6 posts when "we" were punted through the goal posts and I don't think any were controversial but it was nice to see what was going on and it was also nice to be able to read the ACPA Journal as well as being able to access tel and email and watch all the bulletins. IMHO the MEC has made a big mistake and if they ever want any assistance from those that have gone before...they are out to lunch. Very tiny minds are at work in the MEC and it is hard to believe that they thought any retiree could be a threat to their high and lofty opinions. Just home for dental appointments ,(two days), and then back on the "ship". Having a great time and even though you are out in the "Republic Of Western Canada", you should know that the invitation is always open to join us for a bubble or two and the bar never closes on the "bateau". Hope you are having a great summer and we'll be back in late Sep or early Oct. Kip and the Admiral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Thanks for the invite but here in the "republic" we tend to avoid very hot and stormy climes during the summer. Enjoy the rest of your summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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