What's with Harper!?

[Mitch Cronin]

If there's anyone here who understands this "Nation" stuff, and Harper's apparently shameless Quebec vote begging, please explain??

Last I looked, Quebec was a Province within Canada, not a "Nation" That's a title for places like... uhhhh Canada, for instance.

[J.O.]

Actually, I think it was a brilliant political stroke. It really took the wind out of the Bloc's sails just prior to their introduction of a private member's bill calling for Quebec to be recognized as a nation.

[Mitch Cronin]

I'm missing something I guess... Didn't Harper essentially do just that? And why do we care what the bloody PQ offers up as private members bills.. they don't belong in our federal parliament anyway. Go ahead and ask for recognition as a Nation... of course they'd like that status... That's the whole reason for the PQ's being.... isn't it?.... But they can't have it. They're a province, like the rest. (except a whole lot whinier than most - and richer, because of all the bloody whining all the time) ....at least until Harper comes along and seems to believe he has the right to be giving it to them?

[Kip Powick]

Harper wants Quebec to be a Nation "within" Canada, not a Nation standing alone.

Personally I think he is a "chickren-poo". Let the Quebecers go through the whole independence crap and if the succeed, let'm go.......... but.................no CDN money, no CDN Passport. absolutely no CDN benefits.... that they enjoy now........ and they will have to pay a toll to drive on CDN highways

[Guest]

I think harper may have recently had a few too many blows to the head to make that statement.

But I agree with Kip, if Quebec truly wants to separate, let them go through the process, but the leave confederation with what they came into confederation with, Quebec will also be given a hefty bill for their share of the national debt. No use of the Canadian dollar, no Canadian Army, no Canadian passport etc etc.

Oh and good luck in dealing with the native land claims! then there will always be those in the new country of Quebec who will use the Quebec approach in regards to separation from Quebec.

[canadairguy]

There are lots of nice people in Quebec. Please don't judge us by (some of) our politicians.

[dagger]

Harper wants Quebec to be a Nation "within" Canada, not a Nation standing alone.

Personally I think he is a "chickren-poo". Let the Quebecers go through the whole independence crap and if the succeed, let'm go.......... but.................no CDN money, no CDN Passport. absolutely no CDN benefits.... that they enjoy now........ and they will have to pay a toll to drive on CDN highways  

As, presumably, will Canadians traveling from Ontario to New Brunwsick, which will pretty much finish the economies of Atlantic Canada.

If only English Canadian would realize that the francophone use of the word nation - accepted by strong federalists in Quebec - is that of a people, i.e. people with a shared language, culture and history. It's never been more than a slogan or brand to me but some of you get all huffy, and start down the road to perdition because of what the word means to you.

I profoundly dislike Harper on many issues, but I have to say, this was a masterstroke, and not just because of the politics, but because of what it will do to disarm the separatists of one of their best arguments.

[dagger]

I think harper may have recently had a few too many blows to the head to make that statement.

But I agree with Kip, if Quebec truly wants to separate, let them go through the process, but the leave confederation with what they came into confederation with, Quebec will also be given a hefty bill for their share of the national debt. No use of the Canadian dollar, no Canadian Army, no Canadian passport etc etc.

Oh and good luck in dealing with the native land claims! then there will always be those in the new country of Quebec who will use the Quebec approach in regards to separation from Quebec.

1. The two sides will disagree over the true extent of the debt, and after international mediation, we would feel that they took less than they were supposed to.

2. Canadian dollar? I'd use the US dollar myself

3. Canadian army? Who cares? Are the North Koreans invading? We can't even keep troops in Afghanistan past 2009 because we need them for the Vancouver Olympics.

4. Canadian passport? They will have a Quebec one. Big deal.

5. Native land claims, have to be settled either way.

Quebec is different, but a lot of countries have provinces/states/districts that are unique. Quebec has a tendency to keep us in balance, it's more left, less American. We'd have 50,000 troops in Afghanistan today if not for Quebec, we'd be hopelessly selfish in tax policy and benefits, screwing the most vulnerable in our society. Frankly, we'd really be 90% down the road to becoming Americans.

Is Quebec whiney and demanding? Frankly, if you are honest with yourselves, all provinces are whiney and demanding. Is Danny Williams not whiney and demanding? Is Alberta not loathe to share any of the benefits of its resource wealth (while exporting petro-related disadvantages like a high dollar and labor shortages to other provinces)? The premier of Ontario wants mega-billions from Ottawa!

Some of you find it very self-comforting to mouth the same anti-Quebec crap like Pavlov's dogs. It's so predictable. There is a strong sense of smug superiority in your comments, but the truth is Quebec works fine in most ways and the average separatist I have met over the years is just as smug, just as superior-sounding, and in the end, just as ignorant and narrow-minded as some of you.

[chockalicious]

Much ado about nothing over semantics, does not have an impact either way...

Redsox nation, Raider nation, etc. Just some good politics and nothing more.

[Kip Powick]

Dagger...

but because of what it will do to disarm the separatists of one of their best arguments.

Sorry ...but I disagree.the whiners in QC want it their way or no way...trying to sluff off that the word "nation" means dick-all is along the lines of a frightened ostrich.

There is a hard core group in QC that want to leave Canada......let all the QCers vote on it and if they want to form their own "Nation" let them go. Don't get me wrong , I love this country but after decades and decades of bending to a minority, I have just about had it. Enough is enough, you are either a Canadian living in the PROVINCE of Quebec and the NATION of CANADA or you are not..make up your damned mind.

[dagger]

Dagger...

but because of what it will do to disarm the separatists of one of their best arguments.

Sorry ...but I disagree.the whiners in QC want it their way or no way...trying to sluff off that the word "nation" means dick-all is along the lines of a frightened ostrich.

There is a hard core group in QC that want to leave Canada......let all the QCers  vote on it and if they want to form their own "Nation" let them go. Don't get me wrong , I love this country but after decades and decades of bending to a minority, I have just about had it. Enough is enough, you are either a Canadian living in the PROVINCE of Quebec and the NATION of CANADA or you are not..make up your damned mind.

Ya, Ya, ya, Kip, I hear you doing a lot of whining, a lot of pompous generalizing with a generous dose of sanctimony and prejudice. How have we bent to a minority? A little bilingualism here and there? How is your French, Kip. You've had it with this debate. Poor boy. Sitting all angry and frustrated on your yacht all day, sipping bile I suppose. By the way, there is a country called Canada, but the word nation, if you are insuffiently well endowed intelluctually, means something different in other languages. I call Canada a country. I have never felt that it is a nation like Spain where everyone speaks Spanish (though even they have their separatists, too).

Of course I live in Toronto where we have Leafs Nation,

So if Toronto is a Nation, are we all separatists? Is Toronto a country, or is Leafs nation about a collective sub-culture identity.

(And here I hate hockey and I live in this Nation?)

[Kip Powick]

Canada

Love it...or leave it...or give it back.

Anon

[dagger]

Canada

Love it...or leave it...or give it back.

Anon

Kiss my derriere

Vince McMahon

[GDR]

If only English Canadian would realize that the francophone use of the word nation - accepted by strong federalists in Quebec - is that of a people, i.e. people with a shared language, culture and history. It's never been more than a slogan or brand to me but some of you get all huffy, and start down the road to perdition because of what the word means to you.

We're on the same page on this one. I think there is often a negative response with anything like this because of what the separatists have put everybody through in this country.

Harper used the phrase of Quebec as a nation within a united Canada. We have no problem using the term when we refer to our aboriginal citizens as "First Nations". This doesn't mean anything more than that and recognizes their heritage in the same way.

I lived there for my first 15 years with the airline and even though I spoke virtually no French was made welcome and accepted everywhere. I did recognize however that there were definite cultural differences than what I had experienced growing up in Alberta. Not better, not worse, just different.

I frankly hope that this may take wind out of the sails of those that want to divide our country. Time will tell.

Greg Robinson

[Guest]

I lived there for my first 15 years with the airline and even though I spoke virtually no French was made welcome and accepted everywhere. I did recognize however that there were definite cultural differences than what I had experienced growing up in Alberta. Not better, not worse, just different.

Hi Greg,

I was born and raised in Quebec, I can tell you some not very pleasant stories from not being a francophone.

In the past ten years I have lived in Toronto and now Ottawa, so I have had the opportunity to experience the so called cultures I can tell you from my experience that there is no difference in the way of life other than a language.

[dagger]

We're on the same page on this one. I think there is often a negative response with anything like this because of what the separatists have put everybody through in this country.

Harper used the phrase of Quebec as a nation within a united Canada. We have no problem using the term when we refer to our aboriginal citizens as "First Nations". This doesn't mean anything more than that and recognizes their heritage in the same way.

I lived there for my first 15 years with the airline and even though I spoke virtually no French was made welcome and accepted everywhere. I did recognize however that there were definite cultural differences than what I had experienced growing up in Alberta. Not better, not worse, just different.

I frankly hope that this may take wind out of the sails of those that want to divide our country. Time will tell.

Greg Robinson

First Nations

Leaf Nation

It's all about identification, and the way it's being used, the word doesn't mean country.

Quebecers have a self-identity, and when it is stomped on, like when a few people in Belleville walked on a Quebec flag, it's huge negative. But when Quebecers feel respected by the Rest of Canada (ROC as we are called in Quebec), it is meaningful, if purely symbolic.

I remember how all the fuming over the creation of the Maple Leaf flag of Canada. Removing the Union Jack from our drapeau was supposed to be the end of us. That was almost 40 years ago. I think we are better than ever.

I'm no Harper lover, but I have to say, his motion is brilliant. As a Quebec commentator was saying on the CBC this morning, the vote will be held, and so long as it is not rejected, Quebecers will go on with Christmas shopping. It's not a constitutional amendment, so it has little if any weight in the real world.

On the other hand, the Bloc looks completely foolish, Charest is strengthened, the PQ is strangely silent because the Bloc should have voted FOR Harper's motion - since it is purely symbolic. But Duceppe will vote against it, he'll look petty and foolish, the separatist cause will be dealt a setback, Canadian unity will not suffer and may well benefit, but it will not be a bad day for Canada.

And more and more Quebecers will wonder why they send such a dumb party to Ottawa to take up space.

As Michel C Auger of LePresse writes in his political blog today, mocking the Bloc, "There is no trap worse than the one you set for yourself, no paint job that dries slower than when you paint yourself into a corner."

[Kip Powick]

Ya, Ya, ya, Kip, I hear you doing a lot of whining, a lot of pompous generalizing with a generous dose of sanctimony and prejudice. How have we bent to a minority? A little bilingualism here and there? How is your French, Kip. You've had it with this debate. Poor boy. Sitting all angry and frustrated on your yacht all day, sipping bile I suppose. By the way, there is a country called Canada, but the word nation, if you are insuffiently well endowed intelluctually, means something different in other languages. I call Canada a country. I have never felt that it is a nation like Spain where everyone speaks Spanish (though even they have their separatists, too).

Wow !!!Your arrogance is astounding but then again it is to be expected from someone who feels personally attacking the poster is tantamount to buttressing ones flimsy discussion points.

“How have we bent to the minority” Well here is just one example.…….too bad you never served your country Dagger…you would see how the whole of DND caved to the Francophone impetus and the billions wasted on forcing bilingualism into the CF. Lets not even get into the forced 28% requirement of Francophone promotions which resulted in queue jumping on all promotion lists.

No Dagger you may think you have all the answers and enjoy denigrating individuals no matter what their status in society but I am beginning to understand those that feel you should be labeled as a pompous “know-it all”.

PS….your smilies just don’t cut it.

[Guest rattler]

Sitting here in the West, I can not see how accepting "Quebec as a nation within an United Canada" will harm our country and indeed I believe that it will strengthen it.

Harper pulled the rug out from under the BLOC (who are a part of our Federal Parliament even if you don't happen to like that). If he had not introduced his motion, Parliament would have been voting on the BLOC proposal and that would likely have been turned down resulting in nothing but air time for the those who want to rip Canada apart. It is fun to watch the older "Hard Line Liberals" yell and scream about this move whilst the rest of the party (mostly younger) support it.

Regarding the word "Nation"

A State (note the capital "S") is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country.

A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.

Nations and Nation-States

Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience.

When a nation of people have a State or country of their own, it is called a nation-state. Places like France, Egypt, Germany, Japan, and New Zealand are excellent examples of nation-states. There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium. Even with its multicultural society, the United States is also referred to as a nation-state because of the shared American "culture."

There are nations without States. For example, the Kurds are stateless people.

[FA@AC]

Sitting here in the West, I can not see how accepting "Quebec as a nation within an United Canada" will harm our country and indeed I believe that it will strengthen it.

I'm inclined to agree. There has been much media play about how the move will go over in Quebec, but I think that the more interesting question is what Harper's base will make of it. If Rattler's reaction is typical of what conservative voters in the west and in Ontario think, then Harper would seem to have made a clever move.

[Guest rattler]

I'm inclined to agree.  There has been much media play about how the move will go over in Quebec, but I think that the more interesting question is what Harper's base will make of it.  If Rattler's reaction is typical of what conservative voters in the west and in Ontario think, then Harper would seem to have made a clever move.

Not sure if my opinion is typical. The problem with the West (and the rest of Canada) is that we have a lot of folks who have never lived outside the boundaries of their Province or indeed municipality and believe everything they read in the press or see on TV. I find folks in our industry (in general) or those who are well travelled tend to be more receptive to the concept of cultural differences as long as they don't require change to or conflict with their own cultural beliefs.

My support for the Mr. Harper's motion is based on my belief that there will be no harm to Canada and perhaps even a benefit. I continue to believe that Quebec is a valued member of our family. However, if there was a referendum held in Quebec that ended in favour of them leaving the family I would of course sadly defend their right to do so, while at the same time insisting , as in any divorce settlement, that a bill of costs / awards be established.

[Guest]

Here is the latest spin brom the Bloq,

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe urged parliamentarians on Thursday to consider his amended motion declaring that Quebecers form a nation "that is currently within Canada."

CTV.ca News Staff

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe stands and speaks in the House of Commons Thursday morning.

"We're tabling a motion that respects all sides without subjecting the recognition of a Quebec nation to partisan conditions. Yesterday, the prime minister did exactly the opposite. He tabled a motion that recognizes a Quebec nation with a condition attached -- a partisan string attached," Bloc leader Gilles Duceppe said in the House of Commons.

"So we see that the prime minister is merely trying to save face. The only respectful attitude toward Quebecers is to recognize them for what they are. ... A nation that doesn't stop being a nation whether it's no longer part of Canada, that's obvious, a nation with no conditions," the separatist leader said in French.

Duceppe argued that the prime minister had no place deciding the future of Quebec.

"Quebec's future belongs to Quebecers, period. Quebecers under the rules under of the National Assembly, can decide on their own future," he said.

Recognizing Quebec as a nation in the House of Commons is more than a symbolic issue or a partisan one, Duceppe said.

"As a matter of fact, it's the most basic issue for Quebec. It's also a fundamental issue for Canada and that's obvious from the debate that that raises here and right across the country," he said.

Bloc House leader Michel Gauthier rose after Duceppe's speech and tabled an amendment that Quebecers form a nation "actuellement au Canada" -- that is currently within Canada.

The move was seen as an attempt to divide an emerging consensus between the Conservatives, Liberals and NDP.

CTV's Question Period co-host Jane Taber said the Bloc were likely taken aback by Harper's unexpected move.

"The Bloc, I think, was taken by surprise by this, thinking the prime minister wouldn't act so quickly, that the other federal parties would not rally around the prime minister and form a united front," Taber said.

"So now they come back and they say that the prime minister has put conditions on recognizing Quebecers as a nation and now they have added their own nuance to their motion."

The debate comes one day after Prime Minister Stephen Harper moved to defuse a potential national unity time bomb by introducing a motion to recognize that Quebecers form a nation within a united Canada.

Until now, Harper had refused to use the word "nation'' to describe Quebec, dismissing the debate as "semantics.''

But he said Wednesday he was obligated to take a position after the separatist Bloc Quebecois forced the issue onto the parliamentary agenda.

Harper's motion will likely be debated and voted upon on Monday, before the vote on the Bloc motion and two days before the Liberal convention begins in Montreal.

With both the Liberals and Conservatives united in opposition, the Bloc motion is destined for defeat.

Indian Affairs Minister Jim Prentice said it was important to note that the motion does not recognize the province of Quebec as a nation.

"It recognizes the status of 'le Quebecois' as a nation within a united Canada -- and there is an important difference in that," he said on CTV's Canada AM.

The Montreal Gazette's Ian McDonald said the issue of semantics should not be swept under the rug.

"Words are important here. ... What Mr. Harper said was le Quebecois are a nation, not that Quebec is a nation and that's important, because he means le Quebecois in the sociological sense ... in the same sense that the Acadians are a nation or the Cree and other Aboriginal Canadians are a nation," he told CTV's Canada AM.

Liberal caucus supports motion

Duceppe's impassioned speech came minutes after the federal Liberal caucus decided to support the Conservative government motion that Quebecers constitute a nation within a united Canada.

"We are going to vote for a Quebec that forms a part of a united Canada," Interim Liberal leader Bill Graham told reporters after an emergency meeting of the caucus in Parliament.

"Caucus is very supportive. They recognize that it was the prime minister's initiative, but that this is a matter that transcends all party politics."

But some Opposition MPs are expected to be unhappy with the move.

At least one Liberal -- Jim Karygiannis -- has said he'll vote against Harper's motion. Vancouver MP Hedy Fry has also signalled that she's torn on the issue.

The Liberals' eight leadership contenders have been squabbling for weeks over the issue and it has threatened to rupture the party's leadership convention in Montreal next week.

Leadership contenders Ken Dryden and Stephane Dion now say they'll support the Tory motion.

Meanwhile, Liberal leadership front-runner Michael Ignatieff has openly welcomed the government's motion.

"I think federalist parties stood together, reached out to Quebec, recognized an intention to recognize what's specific about Quebec and reaffirmed -- this is a key point -- reaffirmed the unity of our country," Ignatieff told CTV's Canada AM on Thursday morning.

But he questioned Stephen Harper's sincerity.

"There's been quite a lot of change in the prime minister's position in the last months. I guess better late than never, but Quebecers will have to ask just how sincere this is on his part."

Supporters of Ignatieff, the only leadership contender to wholeheartedly endorse the Liberal resolution on Quebec nationhood, were jubilant and privately claimed Harper's move vindicates Ignatieff.

Ignatieff, who has been accused of putting fuel on the separatist fire, himself took credit for getting the ball rolling on the recognition of Quebecers as a nation.

He was accused of being a trouble-maker when he declared that he embraced the idea of recognizing the province as a nation within Canada.

"It really did start with us, in the leadership campaign, going into small towns in Quebec, reaching out, listening to Quebecers, and the Quebecers we were listening to are federalist Quebecers -- Quebecers who love this country just the way every other Canadian from any other community loves this country," he said.

"They asked us, as a party, to affirm their distinctiveness, their particular place in the history of our country, and I was pleased in my campaign to do so. And I think we have every reason to say this started with us," he said.

Bob Rae, Ignatieff's principal opponent, declined comment on Harper's proposal.

"Mr. Rae wants to consider the implications of Mr. Harper's proposal and hear from caucus members today and tomorrow,'' spokesman Alex Swann told CP.

With files from The Canadian Press

[mrlupin]

Hi Greg,

I was born and raised in Quebec, I can tell you some not very pleasant stories from not being a francophone.

In the past ten years I have lived in Toronto and now Ottawa, so I have had the opportunity to experience the so called cultures I can tell you from my experience that there is no difference in the way of life other than a language.

Robert,

If after having being born and raised in Quebec, you can't see a difference in the way les Quebequois live, and act you obviously weren't paying much attention.

I was born and raised in Ontario by French speaking parents (Mom from Quebec and Dad from Ontario). Even I see a huge difference in the way les Quebecois live day to day life.

Here are some difference to help you out....

-As a general rule, the Quebecers are allot more to the left on the political scale then the rest of Canada ( a little bit like in France)

-In general, they will value time off allot more then money (as opposed to the opposite being true where I come from)

-They don't quite fit in the general American culture melting pot (If you do speak French you can surely appreciate the quality of the television programing that is made in Quebec for Quebec)

-They mobilize quite easily to fight for or against their causes (Mount Orford privatization,Wind turbines in Gaspé peninsula, Suroit gas generating plant etc)

The values of the people here are what really sets them apart. They aren't better then Canadians, they are simply different and they want things to stay that way. They want to protect their language (they actually are very present in every provinces who have French speaking communities) and are willing to accept a lower standard of living to get it (that is what separation would mean for Quebecers)

And for Mitch,

Quebec isn't a rich province by Ontario Standards. The road infrastructure is literally falling apart, unemployment has always been above 8% (even in the good years) and 40% of Montrealers make less then 30000/year. (hardly rich standards)

Éric Veilleux

[GDR]

Hi Greg,

I was born and raised in Quebec, I can tell you some not very pleasant stories from not being a francophone.

In the past ten years I have lived in Toronto and now Ottawa, so I have had the opportunity to experience the so called cultures I can tell you from my experience that there is no difference in the way of life other than a language.

Hi Robert

My kids were primarily raised in Montreal and have fond memories of growing up there. I do regret the fact that I didn't speak French and as a result missed out on a lot but I have only myself to blame for that.

I have to disagree with you though when you say that the only difference is language. There is a lot more than language that makes up a distinct culture, and although our cultures overlap in more areas than where they don't the differences are still significant.

Greg

[Mitch Cronin]

Yes they have something of a different culture than say, Albertans... (though Eric [with respect, Eric] doesn't seem to realize how much he made Quebecers sound so much like rural Ontarians, for example)... But so what? Do we need to list ALL the distinct cultures within Canada? I don't think that's needed, as we can surely all agree there are several... THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is a wonderful part of what makes Canada what it is! As I've said before, Canada is just what it is, largely because of Quebec's cultural influence, not in spite of it!

If Quebec were to suddenly be no longer a part of Canada, Canada, and Canadian culture would be severely diminished. That's exactly why it's our business in the ROC to make sure that never happens.

Seperatists can go fly a kite! "Nation" my ass! They're a province! Screwing with semantics in such a volatile climate is bound to bring sad consequences.

I'd sure like to hand a strong Country to my kids.... not a broken one.

[GDR]

I'd sure like to hand a strong Country to my kids.... not a broken one. 

Hi Mitch

I think that's what we all want Mitch In my view this approach just may help to bring that about.

This is a country with vast differences but as different as Alberta is from Newfoundland there is still a much greater difference between Quebec and anywhere else in Canada primarily due to language. French is one of our two national languages. Calling Quebec a nation within a united country makes a lot of sense to me and hopefully to Quebecers as well.

As I say I hope this takes a great deal of wind out of the sails of the separatists. Frankly I think that it is also helpful because it is being done by a Prime Minister who is seen as being from the west. Hopefully by acknowledging that we have differences in this manner, it will over time draw us closer together.

Greg