dagger Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Well, if the unions go to the table they would get Li's absolute bottom line and its ramifications for the OSFI. But they won't go to the table and so we don't know the bottom line. The same thing happened before CCAA. The unions might have negotiated a better deal had they entered into talks prior to CCAA, then gone through a managed CCAA process with the company to ensure the other stakeholders take their haircuts. Instead, because of their obstinancy,they negotiated under an intense, court-supervised process, and to hear ACTS employees, the concessions made by their union were arbitrary and have created a hardship and that there could have been other concessions that would have met the company's goals and been less onerous on the employees. On pension, if the unions negotiate under the threat of a closure, you may end up with a worse deal, or no deal at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Exactly---and I think he would alienate more than just the voters in the West with a save Ac deal. With the number of big dollar 'deals' in Ottawa over the last few years saving AC with the price tag involved would run the Liberals out of politics for the next decade!!!!! Don't think to many people, save the AC employees themselves, care to see billions spent to save ANYTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HardRock Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hmmmmnnn,..."A" scale, and "B" scale pensions...if it happens, the division has begun... it's only the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I suspect that Farley will step in and order the unions to talk to Li. If they can't agree on something to give to the membership, then he will probably decide for them. I believe that if TTI were to allow the unions some say as to what kind of plan their members could opt into, allow them to create it themselves, then they would have little or no reason to object to allowing their members the choice. I completely agree with their initial response, which was to violate their collective agreements by imposing a settlement upon them, but this is different. In a way, I hope Farley imposes a settlement upon them as he has proven to be pretty fair and level-headed so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 What effect on the situation, if any, would selling off Aeroplan, Ground Services, and any other division of A.C.E. have? Would the exit of all these employees have a positive or negative effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AME Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 If it turns out the deal breaker is DC vs DB for the yet to be hired employees then i think the general public will tar and feather any politician who dares to spent one red cent on saving AC, in both the East and West I along with most people here know what has been given thus far, but it's a fair estimate that 99% of the population doesn't know or even care, all they'll see is their hard earned tax dollars being spent on what will be perceived as greedy overpaid airline employees Should you accept it or shouldn't you is your decision to make, just ensure that the choice you make is based on logic and not emotion Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Martha is going to jail because she tried to make only a few thousand dollars.......RM and CR are getting 26 mill each whose better motivated to see a deal? So here's a thought for TTI....give RM and CR 10% of that bonus and dump the other 48 mill into pensions....benefits...new equipment(insert your wish list here). Whats going to happen will happen it just makes me sick to my stomach that we....all the employees have bent over and they are taking a collective 52 million bonus. Makes me wonder if RM had of stayed in the good ol US of A would he be a Republican friend of dubya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sam of Old Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Can't that date be extended again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Sure it can, but the GECAS financing package also expires then, so you are assuming that multiple parties will grant an extension. This can't go on forever. The judge has to have reasonable grounds for an extension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 >>If Paul Martin decides to wait a year, a lot of the damage from an AC failure can be made up by other carriers.<< Just a coincidence or are these guys anticipating something up here? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040309.wxrjetblue09/BNStory/Business/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Frosty,it burns me as well(not melt though)to hear of the huge bonuses (boni), but the point is , these will be paid out of Li's own coffers...if we make a profit. Now,what really frosts me, is the clout of this individual. Unless I am more mistaken than usual, he'll be purchasing 1/3 the airline...and he seems to have ALL the say,so to speak. I wonder, how are the other 2/3 rds relegated, and , what is the makeup exactly...ie shareholders etc...I wonder because as I understand the shares will be worthless... cheers GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leading Edge Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Dagger, Show me where in the CCAA act does the court have any authority to impose a solution in regards to pensions? If AC goes to the next step, which by the way is not liquidation, Li will have to compete in a new bid... do you think that he wants to do this? Further to your comments, no union is going to negotiate a deal with this management. They have shown time, and time again, a complete inability to honour any agreements. To trust them not to put the screws to you a second time in CCAA ; after you have negotiated in good faith, is absurd. The Government is the wild card. An election is looming, and lotsa money gets spent during elections... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 10, 2004 Author Share Posted March 10, 2004 You know... I think you've managed to nail what it is that's got some of us (me anyway)so perplexed... "They have shown time, and time again, a complete inability to honour any agreements. To trust them not to put the screws to you a second time in CCAA ; after you have negotiated in good faith, is absurd." That's right on. But the trouble is that this whole CCAA process, and all that's gone down so far, seems to be something of a mystery to all participants, until it's happening... I don't know how you, or anyone else, can presume to know what the next things to happen are... There seems to be too many variables, and to me, that makes our survival seem extremely fragile. So while I feel on the one hand that I can't trust the buggers, here I am hoping like hell I can trust them to do what's right... :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Air Canada has shut down on several occasions in the past due strikes. Everyone survived. Why do you suppose the federal government has suddenly become interested in allowing cabotage in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Good point. Yesterday, Jetblue applied to fly to Canada, and Thomas Cook has been granted authority. I think that all these people that are under the illusion that Air Canada won't be "allowed" to fail, better wake up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Seems that some folks believe that Li is desperate to purchase AC. I am not so sure that is the case. Li can put his money into secure investments that will return better than 8-10% and I imagine he wants to do as well or better from his investment in AC. I can not see any reason why he would want to buy into AC and lose money, so unless he gets what he feels he needs to achive a positive ROI, I think he will walk. I hope events will not be such that we find out the hard way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lavoy Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I do think AC would be "allowed" to fail. I also think too many people are underestimating the economic effect of such a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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