Turbofan Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 On 6/5/2024 at 5:45 AM, deicer said: Just like the last pilot's strike. And for clarity the pilots didn’t give strike notice in 2011. What happened was theatre. The company locked us out simultaneously with the IAMAW. Then Harper passed company leaning FOS legislation and told the public he was stopping a strike. The last time the pilots went on strike was 1998. It was two weeks and there was no legislation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Air Canada now offering free beer, wine on flights in Canada, U.S. /content/dam/ctvnews/en/images/2024/3/19/air-canada-1-6813742-1710873226826.jpgGround crew prepare an Air Canada plane for a flight at Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport in Montreal, Friday, Dec. 23, 2023. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Christinne Muschi Hannah Alberga CTVNewsToronto.ca Journalist Follow |Contact Published June 5, 2024 3:10 p.m. MDT Air Canada is now offering free beer and wine on flights within Canada and the U.S. until the end of the year. On Wednesday, the airline announced the expansion, adding complimentary pretzels and cookies to the list of free menu items for economy seats. While Air Canada international flights offered complimentary food and alcoholic beverages, up until this point, domestic flights did not. The free beer on tap includes Hop Valley, Creemore Springs Premium Lager, Molson Canadian and Coors Light while the wine list includes red and white French wines from Paul Mas. RELATED STORIES Air Canada expands service to India, to offer non-stop flights from Toronto to Mumbai Air Canada walks back new seat selection policy change after backlash Air Canada pins hopes on business travellers after profits fall For $5, spirits like Baileys, Canadian Club rye and Tromba Tequila Blanco are available. The freebie bites are herb and garlic pretzels from Alberta's family-owned TWIGZ, and Quebec-based Leclerc's Célébration cookies. The complimentary food and drinks do not extend to flights heading to the Caribbean and Mexico. Pack your appetite (aircanada.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Will it be a full can that they give you or a 4 ounce cup like they've been doing with soft drinks up to now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 4 minutes ago, deicer said: Will it be a full can that they give you or a 4 ounce cup like they've been doing with soft drinks up to now? Full can baby! And the pretzels they're going to serve are like crack cocaine - delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 minutes ago, Seeker said: Full can baby! And the pretzels they're going to serve are like crack cocaine - delicious. Yippee! Are the pretzels as addictive as the Kirkland Peanut Butter filled ones? Those are my current equivalent of a crack snack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Just now, deicer said: Yippee! Are the pretzels as addictive as the Kirkland Peanut Butter filled ones? Those are my current equivalent of a crack snack! Haven't had them (sound pretty good). I'd bet the onion garlic flavoured ones would go better with a beer though. These new ones are the simplest thing; little pretzel twists sprinkled with an onion/garlic/butter powder but they sure taste good. Can't believe they haven't been made before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Hmmm, looks like I have to plan a trip..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 hour ago, deicer said: Yippee! Are the pretzels as addictive as the Kirkland Peanut Butter filled ones? Those are my current equivalent of a crack snack! Costco carries those? I gotta check it out, those things are addictive. Had some last week from Bass Pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 22 minutes ago, conehead said: Costco carries those? I gotta check it out, those things are addictive. Had some last week from Bass Pro. Yup! The crack cocaine of snaks! Beware though, it only comes in the 1.5kilo size 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverminds Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 The Porter effect... notice how the free stuff does not extend to the Caribbean or Mexico? Because Porter does not go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) On 6/5/2024 at 9:24 PM, Turbofan said: Dagger, We made slightly less than US carriers pre bankruptcy but it was similar to their pay. We gave in CCAA. The airline almost failed again in 2009. We gave again on the pension front. In 2011 government imposed FOS arbitration foisted more losses on the group. Then in 2014 we locked all those losses in for 10 years to get legs back under the company. It took until 2018, 15 years after CCAA, for Air Canada pilots to make the same wages they made in 2003. Those are straight numbers. No inflation factored in. Today Air Canada pilots make roughly 40% less than they did in 2002 after factoring in inflation and half of what US pilots make. US pilots have only recently fully recovered from their bankruptcy protections after 911. 20 years out Air Canada pilots are now some of the lowest paid legacy carrier pilots in the world and have still not had a post bankruptcy recovery contract. This is the problem. It has been so long since 2003 now that Air Canada management thinks these suppressed wages are simply a “Canadian” thing. Canadian pilots don’t make the same as other pilots. They never have. Right? Well at least as long as they can remember. Watch Air Canada’s messaging moving forward. It will all be about “Canadian”. We offered them a deal that makes our pilots the highest paid in Canada. We compete in Canada. It will be Canada. Canada. Canada. This “you’re just a Canadian” was seen at WestJet as well. This pilot group is getting angrier and angrier. The latest “you’re just a Canadian” offer didn’t go over well. It ended mediation. Yet from a “Canadian” perspective, I have no doubt Air Canada would call it very competitive. But even then Porter pays their EMJ top tier CA more than an AC 787 CA. The difference between the two parties as a result is massive. Remember if you have fallen 40% behind you need a 65% increase to get back to even. That’s even. Not a raise. My guess is that if Air Canada refuses to at least restore the bankruptcy losses, there will be a very acrimonious strike. But you are right. To fully recover from CCAA it will have to go to the wire. Those types of increases only come from the threat of shutdown Ya, I wasn't commenting on what is fair, only the process. Even if the gap was much smaller, I always wonder if a contract can be achieved without some drama. This isn;t only a pilot thing. Once upon a time, I was a union negotiator in another industry and it was always in front of my mind how the members would react to a settlement without drama. Edited June 7 by dagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 On 6/7/2024 at 1:26 PM, dagger said: Ya, I wasn't commenting on what is fair, only the process. Even if the gap was much smaller, I always wonder if a contract can be achieved without some drama. This isn;t only a pilot thing. Once upon a time, I was a union negotiator in another industry and it was always in front of my mind how the members would react to a settlement without drama. I understand your point and it certainly has validity. However in this case I don’t think that is what is happening. The company is trying to hold onto what they see as an entitlement to a Canadian pilot discount. It has been so long since bankruptcy and FOS they view our wages as the Canadian norm. You can tell just how out of touch senior management is even at this point in negotiations by the comments they make. A simple exercise like taking our 2002 wages and inflation adjusting them forward to today is met with confusion on their part. They have not been listening at all or even entertaining the idea that the pilot group wants a post bankruptcy recover contract. Its obvious. They honestly believed we would negotiate from “Canadian wages” almost a full year into negotiations. They were actually shocked we took it as an insult that ended mediation. Remember almost all of AC management and BOD is new since 2014, never mind 2003. They are in a completely different head space than the pilots. They actually believe the disparity between Canadian and US pilot wages we see today is historically normal. But it’s not. The divergence started less than a decade ago. On the other side of the table they are facing ALPA negotiators looking to achieve their first CCAA recovery contract. We gave three times to help this company survive. 1) CCAA 2) Pension Crisis 3) FOS. Then we locked all these losses in for 10 years to stabilize the company. One side viewing substandard Canadian pilot wages as the norm and the other side looking at its first opportunity to recover from the events of the last 20 years. The head space so far apart I don’t see this going anywhere but 23:55 sometime in September or an actual strike. I see this starting to get quite acrimonious very shortly. And not for theatre either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 4 hours ago, Turbofan said: Remember almost all of AC management and BOD is new since 2014, never mind 2003. They are in a completely different head space than the pilots. They actually believe the disparity between Canadian and US pilot wages we see today is historically normal. We may well find that the Government of Canada sees things the same way. A Pierre Poilievre government certainly would, although the next ALPA-AC contract should be a done deal before his gang takes power. Our neighbours to the south fancy themselves as champions of free enterprise, but the USA would be viewed as the most socialist country on earth if one considered the airline industry in isolation. Massive bailouts after 9/11 and then again during Covid. Quite a different situation in Canada, and that might be relevant during negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 56 minutes ago, FA@AC said: We may well find that the Government of Canada sees things the same way. A Pierre Poilievre government certainly would, although the next ALPA-AC contract should be a done deal before his gang takes power. Our neighbours to the south fancy themselves as champions of free enterprise, but the USA would be viewed as the most socialist country on earth if one considered the airline industry in isolation. Massive bailouts after 9/11 and then again during Covid. Quite a different situation in Canada, and that might be relevant during negotiations. I think it is safe to say we already know what the Government of Canada thinks. They have actually been quite clear and consistent. Probably about two weeks into a strike before the Liberals start talking about intervention. Even then the CIRB intervention they chose with the YVR port strike is slow moving. There are no quick government fixes for Air Canada this time around. The CIRB has also been very clear since Harper’s “Essential to the economy” gambit. Essential service to the labor board is security, life or limb. Nothing else. More government intervention, like we saw a decade ago to keep Canadian pilot wages suppressed, will only result in less and less pilot supply. How many people are willing to spend $150K to get a $30k job? Then in their 30’s endure 4 years of flat pay with AC starting at 60K? It makes no sense. This was the same issue in the US. As soon as they started paying flight schools became flooded again. There shortage is self correcting. The right to strike is now a constitutional right because of the actions of political leaders such as Harper. The government today or in the future can not intervene in the way the Harper government did. It is why Doug Ford resorted to the notwithstanding clause but then backed off. As for Poilievre. His future government will be saddled with a Liberal supermajority in the senate. He won’t be able to act like Harper either. He may try to intervene sooner than the Liberals but he can’t stop a strike from starting and he will have more trouble passing legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, FA@AC said: Quite a different situation in Canada, and that might be relevant during negotiations. Forget comparing to the US or the fact that AC pilots are some of the lowest paid legacy pilots in the world now. It’s not just us compared to the US. Europe is the same. Even Porter pays their E-190 Captains about 25% more than AC’s A220 Captains. Forget all that. How about this one question. Do you think Air Canada pilots are worth 30-40% less than 20 years ago? If so why? We are talking very large cumulative losses this group has experienced. It would take a 45-65% raise to recoup that 30-40% loss. That kind of correction in my mind only comes with the leverage of strike. It doesn’t get handed back without a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 9 hours ago, Turbofan said: Forget comparing to the US or the fact that AC pilots are some of the lowest paid legacy pilots in the world now. It’s not just us compared to the US. Europe is the same. Even Porter pays their E-190 Captains about 25% more than AC’s A220 Captains. Forget all that. How about this one question. Do you think Air Canada pilots are worth 30-40% less than 20 years ago? If so why? I don’t think that at all, but I do think that rightly or wrongly the comparators are more likely to be pilots at other carriers in Canada rather than those in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 7 hours ago, FA@AC said: I don’t think that at all, but I do think that rightly or wrongly the comparators are more likely to be pilots at other carriers in Canada rather than those in the US. It was a trick question. Air Canada pilot wages from 2002, inflation adjusted to today, are very similar to US wages today. Getting our bankruptcy and FOS losses back is the same as comparing to the US. The two statements, although not exactly the same, are very similar. They are simply two ways of saying basically the same thing. This makes sense since back in 2002 wages were also similar. To suggest that Air Canada pilots must compare to other airlines in Canada means you believe the cuts over the last 20 years are permanent. You are taking the same stance as Air Canada management. Canadian pilot value has declined over the last 20 years and is permanent. That stance, unless changed, will lead to conflict in September. It's not an if. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 7 hours ago, Turbofan said: To suggest that Air Canada pilots must compare to other airlines in Canada means you believe the cuts over the last 20 years are permanent. You are taking the same stance as Air Canada management. I think you'll find that my views on what all AC employees deserve are very different from those of AC management. I didn't say that wages necessarily should compare to those at other carriers in Canada--just that I predict that that is what will happen. More power to us all if I'm mistaken, but given that ALPA at WestJet settled for less than what many has hoped while the Minister of Labour was present at 11th hour bargaining I'm not as optimistic as you are that government will tolerate a strike for more than half an hour. What is your own expectation of what will be achieved? That senior WB captains at AC will win UA/DL wages and retain a defined benefit pension plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 43 minutes ago, FA@AC said: What is your own expectation of what will be achieved? That senior WB captains at AC will win UA/DL wages and retain a defined benefit pension plan? Yes. The pension plan is fully funded and costs the company exactly nothing (that's the DB plan). AC pilots expect the dollar equivalent to the US pilots. What ever they get paid in US dollars, the AC pilots expect the same in C dollars (or, so I've been told anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 3 hours ago, FA@AC said: More power to us all if I'm mistaken, but given that ALPA at WestJet settled for less than what many has hoped while the Minister of Labour was present at 11th hour bargaining I'm not as optimistic as you are that government will tolerate a strike for more than half an hour. The WJ pilots settled for what the data said the WJ pilots wanted at the 80th percentile. It is very hard to exceed an 85 year legacy carrier. Yet they did by a very good margin. The minister of labour was in attendance at the WJ deadline. That is normal ops for the Labour minister in a high profile dispute. He never once did anything to tip the scales in any direction. He only monitored. That is straight from the people involved. Your suggestion that something else was potentially a foot is misleading. It is not possible to have a 30 minute strike. Legislation takes days to become law. No legislation at the deadline and that guarantees days of striking even if the government reacted immediately following work stoppage. You either have legislation in hand in advance like Harper did and completely prevent the strike in the first place. Completely tipping the scale in favour of the employer. Now unconstitutional. Or you accept that a strike can happen and would likely be at minimum a week once it starts. Air Canada pilots with DB pensions represent less than half the group. Age 65 has it over funded. It’s currently cheaper than the DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 2 hours ago, Seeker said: Yes. The pension plan is fully funded and costs the company exactly nothing (that's the DB plan). AC pilots expect the dollar equivalent to the US pilots. What ever they get paid in US dollars, the AC pilots expect the same in C dollars (or, so I've been told anyway). Again. AC pre bankruptcy wages inflation adjusted to today are similar to US carrier wages in CDN today. Compare to the US or compare to pre bankruptcy? Very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, Turbofan said: The minister of labour was in attendance at the WJ deadline. That is normal ops for the Labour minister in a high profile dispute. He never once did anything to tip the scales in any direction. He only monitored. That is straight from the people involved. Your suggestion that something else was potentially a foot is misleading. I find it hard to imagine that a cabinet minister would bother to attend negotiations simply to “monitor” and that there was never any chance that he’d pressure the parties to conclude a deal and/or suggest that he’d put words in the ears of the company or the union that they might not like what the government would do it they didn’t. I remember hearing a fair amount of bravado before ACPA walked itself right into FOS. Not all that dissimilar to what one reads online from some Canadian ALPA members now. No other labour group at AC did anything as stupid. Not even CUPE. I’m sure you’re in good hands with ALPA, but I’d still be a bit concerned by some of the stuff being put out in their press releases. Your MEC chair has pretty much said that higher labour costs lead to lower fares for the travelling public. ALPA economics, I guess. She has also suggested that pilots will be deserting AC in droves for US carriers unless a huge pay increase is won. Green cards are now a dime a dozen, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 2 hours ago, FA@AC said: I find it hard to imagine that a cabinet minister would bother to attend negotiations simply to “monitor” and that there was never any chance that he’d pressure the parties to conclude a deal and/or suggest that he’d put words in the ears of the company or the union that they might not like what the government would do it they didn’t. Went straight to midnight or just shy. At one point the WJ pilots were walking out. The labour minister was never In the actual room. If he said anything to anyone it wasn’t the pilots. He had no legislation in hand. That strike was on if the WJ pilots had decided on it. Your belief of impending government intervention seems to me to be Harper PTSD. That was a joke, but you get what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 2 hours ago, FA@AC said: I remember hearing a fair amount of bravado before ACPA walked itself right into FOS. Not all that dissimilar to what one reads online from some Canadian ALPA members now. No other labour group at AC did anything as stupid. Not even CUPE. You are being too kind to ACPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbofan Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 2 hours ago, FA@AC said: I’m sure you’re in good hands with ALPA, but I’d still be a bit concerned by some of the stuff being put out in their press releases. Your MEC chair has pretty much said that higher labour costs lead to lower fares for the travelling public. ALPA economics, I guess. She has also suggested that pilots will be deserting AC in droves for US carriers unless a huge pay increase is won. Green cards are now a dime a dozen, apparently. No. She said parking aircraft because you don’t have enough pilots leads to a supply and demand issue that will eventually drive up airfare. Both WestJet and Air Canada have been pulling out of markets for the same reason. She said pilots may leave AC if wages don’t become competitive. Remember these are sound bites. Corporate Captains in Canada make 250-300k now. I know a few who will go back to corporate if wages aren’t rectified. Working up north pays really well now. Like really well. Medivac? The pay is crazy compared to when I was young. There are options other than the US. Big picture. If this profession isn’t made attractive to 16-18 year olds the industry in Canada is in trouble. How do you make a 150k investment attractive to an 18 year old? Go from there. The pilot shortage is actually an industry led issue. It’s not that people don’t want to be in the profession. It’s that for the last decade or two it doesn’t make financial sense. It’s now catching up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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