Hard To Watch

[Kip Powick]

 

Eight years on this type and the only thing I can think of is a massive mechanical/control failure, or a wish to die...

 

 

 

[blues deville]

Appears to be moving quite slowly before it drops a wing and nose dives. What are the stall characteristics of the C130?

[Kip Powick]

Shows what the female talking head is fed by the CNN  control room......."These Military jets are so huge..blah-blah.........................

The Stall ??? The C130 has normal stall characteristics but the speed, as you know, depends on "power on" or "power Off" . Again it depends on AOA but the IAS is quite low in both cases, lower with power on..

Normally one wing will drop first but the recovery is very simple, ease off the back pressure and fly out of it. In this case the aircraft does a "wing-over" and 1/2 roll so from the video it doesn't look like there was any effort to recover from a stall. If the aircraft was stalled, there was gross mishandling in the failed attempt to unstall....those are big wings out there and they generate a lot of lift so stall recovery is normally very easy and there was certainly adequate altitude to recover or at least "pancake " on the terra firma"

Be interesting if, and when they find the cause..

[DEFCON]

If one of the outboard engines went into beta or even reverse you might see that kind of profile?

[blues deville]

16 minutes ago, DEFCON said:

If one of the outboard engines went into beta or even reverse you might see that kind of profile?

I was thinking the same. One or more engines/props not performing normally? The aircraft had just come out of a maintenance check. 

[Kip Powick]

If that were to happen, then  the moment the aircraft approached a steep bank, the engine should have been shut down. One engine in reverse in flight can easily be over come by the "good' engine and the other two "good" engines by judicial application of power. and corrective control inputs.

In all honesty I have never heard of that, (reverse in flight), happening to a C-130 and I don't recall it being in the emergency  checklist.

[DEFCON]

The maintenance check was probably more in the way of striping the ac of useful components than a thorough mechanical inspection?

My initial and recurrent ground schools on the 580 were taught by a retired CAF Cosmo  Herc maintenance boss. The question was asked. As I recall, he advised that inflight beta couldn't happen, but if it did the flight would end very abruptly.

[blues deville]

5 minutes ago, DEFCON said:

The maintenance check was probably more in the way of striping the ac of useful components than a thorough mechanical inspection?

My initial and recurrent ground schools on the 580 were taught by a retired CAF Cosmo  Herc maintenance boss. The question was asked. As I recall, he advised that inflight beta couldn't happen, but if it did the flight would end very abruptly.

Perhaps the take off roll and climb were a factor. Something shifted or vibrated lose? A crash event immediately following major work would be my initial clue in the investigation. 

[Kip Powick]

My initial and recurrent ground schools on the 580 were taught by a retired CAF Cosmo  Herc maintenance boss. The question was asked. As I recall, he advised that inflight beta couldn't happen, but if it did the flight would end very abruptly.

If he was talking about the 580, he is correct....only two engines, the 580 was over powered for the original air-frame and modifications had to be made so I don't doubt that inflight reverse would not be a good thing..

The 580 was the only aircraft I flew that had an interconnect between the ailerons and the rudder, which made X-wind landings a little different 

[Wolfhunter]

It would end very abruptly indeed. Pretty sure the pitch lock system would catch it as the blade angle decreased and RPM increased above max.... 103.6 rings a bell for overspeed and pitch lock but it's been a long time.

 

[acsidestick]

It’s been a long time since I instructed and used to do elementary aerobatics training.  I seem to recall, in a stall, the reason you kept ailerons levels, and only used rudder, was that the wing tips and ailerons stalled last, leaving the ailerons still effective during the incipient stages of the stall.

If the wing dropped a bit (turbulence or stall in a turn) during a previously level stall, using the aileron to correct the roll changed the AOA of the dropped wing, which now suddenly would stall unevenly, turning the stall into a spin.  It was the reason for rudders only when hitting stall AOAs.  The natural reaction, without memory reflex training was to correct the roll with aileron, not rudder.

i don’t know if that may apply here.  When I learned to fly, stalling and spinning were practiced until it entered muscle memory.  Other countries didn’t have such emphasis on the subject.

RIP to all onboard. 

[DEFCON]

103.6 ... good memory.

Must be getting fuzzy but I can't recollect an interconnect between the rudder and ailerons either, but I do recall the feature on the PA 31 - 350 ... never did like it.

I do recall the embarrassment if you started loading the blades on the way down and activated the NTS protection system; it sure made everyone sit up. 

[Kip Powick]

1 hour ago, DEFCON said:

Must be getting fuzzy but I can't recollect an interconnect between the rudder and ailerons either,

I don't have the AOIs but here you go from the internet..... yes with the passage of i time the memory gets fuzzy.. can't remember what I had last night for supper 

 

Article Information
Category:	General
Content source:	SKYbrary
Content control:	EUROCONTROL

Description

Coupled ailerons and rudder are mechanically linked controls.

This linkage is accomplished utilising rudder-aileron interconnect springs. These springs help correct aileron induced yaw by automatically deflecting the rudder whenever the ailerons are deflected; that is, when the control wheel or stick is deflected to produce a roll to the right, the right rudder pedal is also pulled forward by the spring a sufficient amount to overcome the tendency for the nose of the aircraft to yaw to the left.

In the circumstance, such as a crosswind landing, where it is necessary to slip the aircraft, the springs can be overpowered by pilot input, or, in the case of a larger aircraft with interconnect springs (such as the Convair 580), by applying opposite direction rudder and aileron trim input.

[Kip Powick]

On 5/3/2018 at 5:37 PM, Wolfhunter said:

It would end very abruptly indeed. Pretty sure the pitch lock system would catch it as the blade angle decreased and RPM increased above max.... 103.6 rings a bell for overspeed and pitch lock but it's been a long time.

 

 Good memory and exceedingly close. The book was 103 and of course loss of hydraulic fluid and I think there was another about the whole assembly malfunctioning but I can't remember the reason..( 6 years on CV 580 and 8 years on C130)

[DEFCON]

Kip

I contacted eight different retirees with bags of 580 time and none could recall an interconnect between the ailerons and rudder. One fellow advises he still has the manual and will report back.

  

[Kip Powick]

You did read the post above which talks about that specific thing ???

Here is the link to what I posted....

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Coupled_Ailerons_and_Rudder

Perhaps the fellows you contacted knew the connect was there but never thought about it when landing in a strong crosswind. I do know that in limit X wind one was really moving the controls to align with the runway but I never thought about the inputs by me due to the linkage ...I just did it.

[J.O.]

Our pilots operating manual for the CV580 says, "The airplane is equipped with a flight control system that utilizes push-pull rods, cables and torque tubes connected to conventional cockpit controls. Aileron and rudder control systems are inter-connected to improve lateral stability during low speed flight."

[QFE]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:32 AM, Kip Powick said:

I don't have the AOIs but here you go from the internet..... yes with the passage of i time the memory gets fuzzy.. can't remember what I had last night for supper 

 

Article Information
Category:	General
Content source:	SKYbrary
Content control:	EUROCONTROL

Description

Coupled ailerons and rudder are mechanically linked controls.

This linkage is accomplished utilising rudder-aileron interconnect springs. These springs help correct aileron induced yaw by automatically deflecting the rudder whenever the ailerons are deflected; that is, when the control wheel or stick is deflected to produce a roll to the right, the right rudder pedal is also pulled forward by the spring a sufficient amount to overcome the tendency for the nose of the aircraft to yaw to the left.

In the circumstance, such as a crosswind landing, where it is necessary to slip the aircraft, the springs can be overpowered by pilot input, or, in the case of a larger aircraft with interconnect springs (such as the Convair 580), by applying opposite direction rudder and aileron trim input.

I think the last sentence explains where the confusion comes into this. Yes they are connected, however, you can still side slip.

[DEFCON]

Thanks JO; that excerpt certainly makes it clear.

I think maybe it's time for everyone I know to start Prevagen therapy.

Great recollection Kip.

[DEFCON]

There's a new theory emerging that says, because the Cosmopolitan had larger engines than the civilian 580 stronger springs were needed in the interconnected aileron / rudder system. Iow's, pilots on the 580 didn't have to deal with the same induced forces as the Cosmo pilot?