YYZ Ground

[Mitch Cronin]

I had one of our 67's out on 33L for a run the other day, with a wind from about 270ish... and the right side Pratt went BOOM!... I should have known better, they don't like much wind off their noses.... So we asked for another spot, into wind, and were kindly granted a place on 24L.... While on the way there, the very nice man on 126.7 thought he'd give us a friendly and polite wrist-slap about us accepting the first run spot, which turned out to be unsuitable to the poor old Pratt and Wiggleys, ...."I think it's incumbent upon your company to plan this better" said the man (or words to that effect ... I can't remember exactly).

So.... I'd like to apologize, and explain.... in the slight hope that, even if nobody from the bunch at YYZ Ground reads this, maybe somebody might forward it to one of 'em..... ?

When we need to run something, and we can't get away with doing it just outside the barn doors (ie, we need to give her a good blast), we have to go through this crap of faxing, or running, or sending via carrier pigeon, a request to do so... followed by phoning in the same request. The request form has a blank to fill in labeled, "position requested".... If the ship has GE engines, it really doesn't matter (usually..., so long as there's not a howling wind up the tailpipes)... but a few of our 67's have the dear old Pratts. ...and they do care. ...

...so it was, on this particular day, that there was a big push to get this bird out the door, and as I climbed aboard, I hollered back to our supervisor, "Did you get us a run spot yet?"... "I'm on it." sez he. ... just as we're starting to move back, he reappears from his office and yells up to me, "Position twelve!" .... Now I know he's asked for a spot "into wind", so I figured that spot should do... ...in fact, I didn't know it wouldn't do until the blasted beast burped.

Yep, if I'd had the luxury of time, I'd have got the wind first and told him to call back for a better spot... and I should have anyway, ...but am I wrong to hope the folks who grant us these things would understand the request "into wind"? ... and maybe say something to catch our attention if the spot they grant is approaching 90 degrees off?

Anyway.... yes, it was my fault. I should have taken the time to verify the suitability of the original run location granted. I do apologize. .... and I won't make that mistake again. I'd also like to say I appreciate the pains we sometimes put you guys through... Thank you for putting up with us. I know we're a nuisance, and we try to stay out of your hair, but if we don't get 'em out for a run when we need to, we can't let 'em go make money.

Yours, very humbly,

Mitch Cronin

[Seeker]

Mitch;

Just remember, ATC is there to serve the needs of the aviation community - not the other way 'round. Plans change and/or what seemed acceptable turns out to be unacceptable - the controller was wrong to comment on your request for an alternate position.

[sustainable]

Most of the time YYZ ATC runway coordination appears to barely understand the concept of landing into wind. They certainly don't understand the concepts of unnecessary fuel burn or greenhouse gasses or why would you ever have to hold at YSO on a CAVU day just because it happened to be a weekend.

Your mileage may vary.

[shediac]

I had one of our 67's out on 33L for a run the other day, with a wind from about 270ish... and the right side Pratt went BOOM!... I should have known better, they don't like much wind off their noses.... So we asked for another spot, into wind, and were kindly granted a place on 24L.... While on the way there, the very nice man on 126.7 thought he'd give us a friendly and polite wrist-slap about us accepting the first run spot, which turned out to be unsuitable to the poor old Pratt and Wiggleys, ...."I think it's incumbent upon your company to plan this better" said the man (or words to that effect ... I can't remember exactly).

So.... I'd like to apologize, and explain.... in the slight hope that, even if nobody from the bunch at YYZ Ground reads this, maybe somebody might forward it to one of 'em..... ?

When we need to run something, and we can't get away with doing it just outside the barn doors (ie, we need to give her a good blast), we have to go through this crap of faxing, or running, or sending via carrier pigeon, a request to do so... followed by phoning in the same request. The request form has a blank to fill in labeled, "position requested".... If the ship has GE engines, it really doesn't matter (usually..., so long as there's not a howling wind up the tailpipes)... but a few of our 67's have the dear old Pratts. ...and they do care. ...

...so it was, on this particular day, that there was a big push to get this bird out the door, and as I climbed aboard, I hollered back to our supervisor, "Did you get us a run spot yet?"... "I'm on it." sez he. ... just as we're starting to move back, he reappears from his office and yells up to me, "Position twelve!" .... Now I know he's asked for a spot "into wind", so I figured that spot should do... ...in fact, I didn't know it wouldn't do until the blasted beast burped.

Yep, if I'd had the luxury of time, I'd have got the wind first and told him to call back for a better spot... and I should have anyway, ...but am I wrong to hope the folks who grant us these things would understand the request "into wind"? ... and maybe say something to catch our attention if the spot they grant is approaching 90 degrees off?

Anyway.... yes, it was my fault. I should have taken the time to verify the suitability of the original run location granted. I do apologize. .... and I won't make that mistake again. I'd also like to say I appreciate the pains we sometimes put you guys through... Thank you for putting up with us. I know we're a nuisance, and we try to stay out of your hair, but if we don't get 'em out for a run when we need to, we can't let 'em go make money.

Yours, very humbly,

Mitch Cronin

Hey Mitch,FYI my big block chevy runs better into the wind,must be a carb thing

[CAT3DUAL]

Mitch, what many people fail to realize is that we pay ATC large fee's so they can help us in our operation, not the other way around. Buddy on ground can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned.

[mo32a]

Perhaps he was trying to help. You're just seeing it from Mitch's report.

Maybe moving the 67 delayed or inconvenienced some other aircrafts operation.

The controller (I don't think) would just say it for fun. There would have to have been

an impact on some other operation for him to voice that.

[Seeker]

The controller (I don't think) would just say it for fun. There would have to have been

an impact on some other operation for him to voice that.

Right, and the place to voice that is over the phone the next time a manager calls to request a runup spot - not over the radio to the guy just trying to get an airplane back into service.

[mo32a]

Right, and the place to voice that is over the phone the next time a manager calls to request a runup spot - not over the radio to the guy just trying to get an airplane back into service.

Unless I misread it, they already had a runup spot and then Mitch requested another one on the radio.

There was no phone call from a manager for the second spot, which was the event that produced the comment. Regardless, politeness never hurts, both ways of course.

[Tango Niner]

In any case, I enjoyed your entertaining write-up Mitch.

T9

[MURRAY]

sustainable: Do some research into a thing called the Preferential Runway Program before you start accusing anyone of "barely having an understanding" of anything. You may be surprised at what you discover.

[Johnny]

Preferential Runway Program

1. That explains the 15's in operation last week...weekday, south wind at 7 kts?

2. Landing Widebodies on 06R/24L - shortest runway (9000') in Toronto?

...toss in the requisite 90 degree x-wind at 25 knots ...

There is 'zero' rime or reason to Toronto's runway operations. We all know about the "landing rate" issues on the East/West's verse North/South's.

Short of the never ending "manpower" games being played over at Nav Canada.

[roadbiker]

Hey, at least there's no flow when it's SKC with winds less than 5 kts... (yyc)

[MURRAY]

Very nice Johnny. Now explain, exactly, what the Preferential Runway Program is.

[J.O.]

Some people think that they're in the only airplane that matters. It's usually a good idea to fully understand an issue before you go criticizing it, thus making yourself look foolish. IMHO

[MURRAY]

Some people think that they're in the only airplane that matters. It's usually a good idea to fully understand an issue before you go criticizing it, thus making yourself look foolish. IMHO

Excellent point J.O. Johnny has some studying to do.