Mitch Cronin Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Gents, ... regarding your comments from another thread ( http://forum.aeforum.net/index.php?showtopic=388879 ): Nice try. Not the same thing. and:Hardly. Ever heard of time zones. ... I'm rather interested in hearing you elaborate on your reasoning behind those statements?.... one, or more, of us has a chance to learn something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Mitch…I’m sure the two addressees can answer your questions but let me wade in with my POV based on what I think has transpired in the dialogues. Your reply about "4 nights on etc" was taken as being the same problem that pilots have when they transit many time zones and ......herein lies the problem…because….. your assumption is incorrect. For example…in olden days.. We would board the trusty C130 in YTR at 7:00pm for a flight to Germany Let us assume the flight takes 6 hours We then arrive in Lahr Germany at 1:00am (body time)…but it is 7:00am in Lahr In order to get on the German Time clock we force ourselves to stay up until at least 9:00pm German time…which is 3:00pm (body time) We are bagged as we have been awake for approximately 31 hours (body time). A good nights sleep and we are on German time so there is no problem for the duration of our time in Germany When we go back to Canada the same thing occurs with the time zones but going westbound is never as bad as going eastbound. What really makes for a tough time is crossing the International Date Line and more time zones AND a lesser amount of time to acclimatize to your new time zone…say 24-36 hours there............ and you have to go back to your original time zone in your point of origin. Unless I am wrong the two individuals in question are making the point, and I agree with them… that ......staying in ONE time zone and moving shifts from day to night etc is nowhere as difficult as traversing all the different time zones long haul pilots encounter. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Some grist for the mill.... Jet Lag Jet lag, or dysrhythmia, occurs when the body clock is not synchronized with an air traveller’s new time zone, causing a disruption of more than 50 physiological and psychological rhythms. Studies show that jet lag worsens with age, particularly after age 50. Until recently, jet lag was dismissed as merely an unpleasant side-effect of air travel. New research suggests that it also causes memory loss, shrinkage of parts of the brain, negative side effects on blood pressure, and in one study has been implicated in the incidence of cancer. The common symptoms of Jet Lag are fatigue, poor concentration, trouble sleeping, irritability, minor depression, altered estimation of time and distance, and digestive problems. The symptoms are at their worst in the first two days after crossing three or more time zones. The general rule is that, without any specialized treatment, adjustment time takes about a day for each time zone crossed. However, if left untreated, two or three weeks may be needed to completely realign all rhythms correctly. Symptoms of Jet Lag occur due to an upset of the human 'body clock', caused by a change in a normal sleeping and waking schedule. The human 'body clock' is a complex internal mechanism that serves to regulate our body's functions over time. It is controlled by the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), a tiny cluster of nerve cells in an area of the brain known as the hypothalamus. This 'body clock' helps regulate breathing and heart rate, body temperature, blood pressure, hormone production, and other vital bodily functions. Flying over multiple time zones, usually three or more, either east or west will upset the body clock, forcing the body to readjust its normal schedule of sleeping and waking, temperature control, digestion, and more. Studies now show that properly timed light supplements can help to reset the body clock in about two days. With The Time Traveller and Body Clock Calculator, you can simply enter your normal waking time and number of time zones being crossed, and receive a schedule for when to 'seek light' and when to 'avoid light'. Shift Work In today's fast-paced society, many of us work all hours of the day or night. This has important implications for workers' health and safety. Fatigue amongst shift workers is an internationally recognized problem across multiple industries. A night worker, even one who has slept reasonably well, is no more alert between 2 a.m. and 8 a.m. than a day worker who has slept only 4 hours per night two nights in a row. The cost of mistakes made by fatigued workers including lost production, missed days from work, and medical costs exceed an estimated $100 billion annually in North America alone. Night workers are just as likely as day workers to perform tasks requiring attention, reasoning, decision-making, and other mental skills. Many night workers don't fit the stereotype of the shift worker - actors, musicians, television news anchors, computer programmers, doctors on call, diplomats, business executives, and just about anyone working long or irregular hours. And now Broadband Internet has made it possible for information and game lovers to be connected 24 hours a day, making the concept of "shift lag" applicable for many more people than just shift workers. "Shift Lag" lasts longer and is often more severe than Jet Lag. Shift workers who fail to adapt to their schedule often develop chronic fatigue and increased susceptibility to illness. Research now confirms that bright light in specific wavelengths (blue and green) can shift the internal "body clock", and can regulate sleep patterns through usage for 30 to 40 minutes at wake up time. It can help shift workers and people who work irregular hours feel more alert, energetic, and in turn improve on the job performance. The Litebook Company is currently working with world-renowned light researchers to develop an integrated software program, similar to the Body Clock Calculator (US Patent Pending) for regulating the human body clock for shift work. Fatigue Management Inventor and artist Leonardo Da Vinci once proclaimed that sleep was a "waste of time", and we've all heard people say that "there's not enough hours in the day" when referring to work, raising a family, or speaking about their particular passion - and many of us agree. Today's lifestyles demand that we be focused and content morning, noon and night. Whether it's because we love our work or because others are depending on us, it's almost always important that we feel alert, energetic, and content. Fatigue is a common and often serious problem in the workplace. Truck Drivers, for example, often attempt to live on eighteen-hour days, making fatigue inevitable. Highway crashes, including those involving automobiles, peak when daily alertness is at its lowest. The US Department of Transportation no longer calls crashes "accidents", as it promotes the concept that these events occur outside of human control, while they are often predictable and preventable. Asleep-at-the-wheel crashes, experts say, are preventable and the problem must be addressed in direct and practical ways. Trucking laws and regulations are under scrutiny, but over 800 truck drivers die in North America every year, and in each of these crashes an average of four other people die along with the driver. Fatigue is cited as the leading cause of these crashes, well above alcohol and technical malfunction. For more information about Fatigue in transportation industries, visit our suggested reading list and related web sites. Light supplements can regulate sleep patterns by helping the body clock send signals to the rest of the body that morning is here. While light supplements can never replace sleep, they may produce a similar effect to drinking coffee, without side effects such as dehydration and becoming reliant on caffeine, thereby reducing the effect it has on the body. Light supplements should never be used to replace sleep or to promote sleep deprivation, as nothing can replace a deep and sufficiently lengthy sleep. Used properly, light supplements can greatly reduce fatigue. Used regularly in combination with a sufficient amount of sleep, light supplements can regulate sleep and waking patterns, and promote alertness and attentiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AME Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Mitch…I’m sure the two addressees can answer your questions but let me wade in with my POV based on what I think has transpired in the dialogues. Your reply about "4 nights on etc" was taken as being the same problem that pilots have when they transit many time zones and ......herein lies the problem…because….. your assumption is incorrect. For example…in olden days.. We would board the trusty C130 in YTR at 7:00pm for a flight to Germany Let us assume the flight takes 6 hours We then arrive in Lahr Germany at 1:00am (body time)…but it is 7:00am in Lahr In order to get on the German Time clock we force ourselves to stay up until at least 9:00pm German time…which is 3:00pm (body time) We are bagged as we have been awake for approximately 31 hours (body time). A good nights sleep and we are on German time so there is no problem for the duration of our time in Germany When we go back to Canada the same thing occurs with the time zones but going westbound is never as bad as going eastbound. What really makes for a tough time is crossing the International Date Line and more time zones AND a lesser amount of time to acclimatize to your new time zone…say 24-36 hours there............ and you have to go back to your original time zone in your point of origin. Unless I am wrong the two individuals in question are making the point, and I agree with them… that ......staying in ONE time zone and moving shifts from day to night etc is nowhere as difficult as traversing all the different time zones long haul pilots encounter. Just my opinion. Kip Have you ever worked 4x4 night shift? Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Kip Have you ever worked 4x4 night shift? Brett since this has become an open topic, I'll also jump in. If you mean 4 on and then 4 off non rotating night shift (what we called graveyards), I have... I also worked a rolling 4 & 3 that rotated weekly Graveyard to afternoons and then to days . When I was single the 4&4 best as it allowed my social life (evenings) to work quite well, however a constant diet of graveyards simply does not work for a married man. The rolling 4&3 was the best for that, at least for 2/3s of the pattern, I was more in sync with my family. All of the shifts did of course require some personal discipline (adjustment of my non working life) so as to ensure I had the required rest to perform my duties (at least to my satisfaction ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Having worked 3x3x3 shifts for over 20 years, I've always described it as always being in 'Jetlag'. Three mornings starting at 5am, three afternoons starting at 1pm, then 3 days off. You don't know when to sleep, eat, sh!t, and you're always playing catchup with your energy levels. Yes, I willingly work this sched, but it doesn't get any easier over time. Napping has become mandatory in order to maintain sanity. And that's working an average 21 days a month. Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Kip Have you ever worked 4x4 night shift? Brett Hi Brett, In my younger days...yes...in an apple packing plant in sunny BC I never found it a problem but then again I was younger and one has to realize tha "jet-lag" /shift-lag" whatever you want to call it affects different people different ways. What seeker posted is very enlightning and is food for thought but is by no means the final word about this unusual and debilitating phenomenon. As far as "jet lag" goes I guess I am the odd man out. I never found "jet-lag" that bad...sure it grated a bit for a day or two but.............. I have a friend who flys out of Hong Kong and when he comes "home" it takes him a minimum of 4 days to get back to "normal". He basically can not function until the 4th day.... and many people are affected that way. On the other side, I know people who love the nightshift for a week and then go back to day and back to night...weird but they do like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Kip, On the first night shift, most will be awake for about 26 hrs... the following day their body will be zonked, as you know, and they'll do their best to sleep in this new time zone 12 hours off....just like your new time zone except that it's light outside (quite a factor for many)... They'll work their four nights, averaging maybe 5 hours a day of sleep (some more, some less)... Sleep during the day for many is not at all like sleep at night... It's often a very interrupted sleep as ambient, random daytime sounds can often be loud .... Also, it's common to be roused for bathroom needs, at some time well before getting enough sleep, and be absolutely unable to get back to sleep because of the same light and sounds previously mentioned. ...Their final night's work done, some will go home and sleep right away, planning to catch maybe four hours, so they can hopefully shift back to night time sleep that evening.... others will stay up that day, and just fall back to night sleeping that evening. So now, for four days, their body and brain try to adjust to that pattern, but before that can happen their fourth day off is over and they return to work for another four night session of compounding their sleep deprivation. They become zombies. Seeker, thanks for posting that. What was the source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Mitch, not sure this cut and paste will work.... jetlag vs shift lag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I flew night cargo for a few years and never got used to sleeping during daylight. I could get 7 hrs sleep during the day, but come 11pm and time to go to work I still felt like crap. Working all night, no matter what the timezone, is a terrible way to live and is much, much worse than regular jet lag. IMO ps. the theory that working at night is "easier" if you do 4 nights in a row is totally bogus, or was to me. I continually felt worse on days 2, 3, and 4. But that was just me, maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I flew night cargo for a few years and will take the jet lagged but still awake day/sleep night scenario over trying to daysleep and work during darkness. No contest. Working "all night" consistently is a terrible way to live and is much, much worse than regular jet lag. IMO We all seem to agree that working constant graveyard shifts is not good, so other than shutting everything down at 2359 and restarting at 0600, how does a company overcome this problem? I know some tried changing the shift turnover time to 0300 but all that did was screw up two groups of workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Good question Rattler. One answer that I've seen work out somewhat successfully was: only those who volunteered worked nights. As you said and I know, some do fine with the shifts. I once did, and volunteered for many years to work steady nights... There was a premium attached to the shift that made it desireable, for those who could handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Good question Rattler. One answer that I've seen work out somewhat successfully was: only those who volunteered worked nights. As you said and I know, some do fine with the shifts. I once did, and volunteered for many years to work steady nights... There was a premium attached to the shift that made it desireable, for those who could handle it. I saw that tried too Mitch but the solution was only a solution if you got enough volunteers. Humans being what we are, the odds are very much against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 That's why I mentioned the premium Rattler. While in my last uniform, there were always enough volunteers. There has to be an added incentive, because there are definitely sacrifices... But the result is that those on midnights understand it's their own choice to be there, so they don't complain and morale improves... AND you get people on midnights who are better able to cope with the shift, so there is an improvement in quality of work and safety. Those who can't do midnights anymore, like myself, don't have to. (and here it might be worth mentioning that there are people with 23 years and more who cannot get off midnights currently. In fact, in two cases recently, they wanted off the night shift bad enough to withold their licences upon renewal, because as unlicenced technicians, they resort back to their full seniority, unnaffected by the "list one, list two" Adams award. ... and can then hold day shift... albeit it at a reduction in pay. (I've heard the company is fighting the second case) At one of this country's major airlines, that volunteer scheme should be implemented. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 That's why I mentioned the premium Rattler. While in my last uniform, there were always enough volunteers. There has to be an added incentive, because there are definitely sacrifices... But the result is that those on midnights understand it's their own choice to be there, so they don't complain and morale improves... AND you get people on midnights who are better able to cope with the shift, so there is an improvement in quality of work and safety. Those who can't do midnights anymore, like myself, don't have to. (and here it might be worth mentioning that there are people with 23 years and more who cannot get off midnights currently. In fact, in two cases recently, they wanted off the night shift bad enough to withold their licences upon renewal, because as unlicenced technicians, they resort back to their full seniority, unnaffected by the "list one, list two" Adams award. ... and can then hold day shift... albeit it at a reduction in pay. (I've heard the company is fighting the second case) At one of this country's major airlines, that volunteer scheme should be implemented. .... I guess since it takes 2 to agree on this deal, you would need to get your Union to propose it. Assuming of course that the majority of your peers would so instruct them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Yeah.... well... in another lifetime I might have known someone with the gumption to push for that.... At this point, I can't for the life of me understand why it's not mandatory. Fatigue contributes to so many encounters with the "uh oh"... it should be something of a no-brainer to legislate serious mitigation teqniques... both on the ground and in flight.... .... the so called "PRM" is nowhere to be seen when mistakes are towed to the gate in the morning... and a sleepy pilot flies less than one mistake high, at least twice in his flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumbi Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 If I may add another variable to the equation... Sleeping during the day, in your own bed, is certainly a bit more restful than trying to go to sleep in a busy hotel when the maids are banging the vacuum and furniture against the walls or in a Carribean resort as the music is playing loudly or the nightly show is taking place and you have to rest a few hours before taking up your shift for a PUJ-YVR red eye after checking-in at 11PM the night before on your 5th day in the pairing... just some more food for thought... We all have to live with our respective constraints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 You make a good point Gumbi... now if you had to do that repeatedly, four out of every eight days.... I understand completely that the demands of the flying world can be damned fatiguing.... I'm hoping to help the rest of you understand something fairly closely resembling the same thing can be said for the night shift AME's upon whose judgement you are relying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chockalicious Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I flew night cargo for a few years and never got used to sleeping during daylight. I could get 7 hrs sleep during the day, but come 11pm and time to go to work I still felt like crap. Working all night, no matter what the timezone, is a terrible way to live and is much, much worse than regular jet lag. IMO ps. the theory that working at night is "easier" if you do 4 nights in a row is totally bogus, or was to me. I continually felt worse on days 2, 3, and 4. But that was just me, maybe. Word for word on this. I never fully got used to graveyard. I just don't believe humans are wired to be nocturnal. I don't know what the solution is either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mo32a Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 All this talk makes a good case for retiring as soon as you are able. Go to bed when you want, get up when you want, no alarm clocks. Ah bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 21 years in this business and probably 18 1/2 on nights. While I did get "USED TO IT" I was never fully 100% while at work. Having said that I now work days monday - friday and still find myself fatigued. This is quite possibly due the long term exposure to night shift. or is could be the early shift I work. I average about 6-7 hours sleep on any given night and find myself tired during the day. I did work some rotating shift as well 2+2+4 and found that to be a rather nasty attack on the old circadian rhythm. I preferred the 4X4 nights when on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 21 years in this business and probably 18 1/2 on nights. While I did get "USED TO IT" I was never fully 100% while at work. Having said that I now work days monday - friday and still find myself fatigued. This is quite possibly due the long term exposure to night shift. or is could be the early shift I work. I average about 6-7 hours sleep on any given night and find myself tired during the day. I did work some rotating shift as well 2+2+4 and found that to be a rather nasty attack on the old circadian rhythm. I preferred the 4X4 nights when on it. perhaps more to due with you current age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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