Just my POV re AC

[Kip Powick]

OK…so I am not there, I’m just here in Dotland, watching the industry from afar. Nor am I as a prolific scribe as Dagger/Bean/Don Hudson, but bear with me and look at a simple mans POV

…..First a little history…probably not needed….. but just incase

TCA was formed in 1936, changed the name to Air Canada in 1965 and was privatized in 1988.

So up until 1988 AC was a crown corporation…sorta like CBC and the Department of Defence…well not really, like DND , but what I am getting at is that up until 1988 it was quite difficult to fire anyone, they had a government job and it would be safe to say that “nothing can hurt me” attitude was very prevalent in that era. TCA/AC really didn’t care if they lost money or made a profit…just like most government organizations in those days.

Up until privatization, the company pretty well had to fly where they were “directed” to by the clowns in OW. Of course they were eventually privatized but never really cut loose. They still had the anchor of the Air Canada Participation Act around their neck.

So it is a safe bet that many of the “employees” of AC, and this is important, at the date of privatization, felt they could carry on with their ingrained work ethic as per the past. This worked fairly well back then as they had little competition in these early years and perhaps an attitude of complacency set it. Naturally the Eastern part of Canada provided more customers so the West was more or less ignored and relied on the small airlines in the area. These small airlines wanted the business and worked hard at getting customers and keeping them happy where as AC basically just kept plodding along…after all “who else can get you over- seas or flights right across Canada”.

Now think about this…privatization happened 20 years ago and many of today’s employees of that era are still here, although I will concede that many have, or will be retired, but those employees that were in AC when it privatized in ‘88 certainly passed their work ethic onto the newbies at that time. There was NOT a sudden change in attitude ………it has taken years, and even now much of that particular 20th century attitude, prevalent prior to ’88, is still deeply rooted within all ranks of employees in AC.

In the early 90’s life was good, the economy was growing worldwide, pilots were in demand, wages for all employees were extremely good…life had a rosey hue and those that were hired just after privatization were lulled into a false sense of security and had number crunched their lives right upto retirement.

On the horizon, a western based airline, CP, was making inroads and seemed to be a bit of a threat to AC domination and this did not set well with the brass hats in AC . Try as they might, CP did not have the customer base, nor the cash to fight big AC and finally a “forced” merger came about. The turmoil of the merger is well documented, and is still ongoing, and in the meantime the world, including Canada, witnessed calamity after calamity, however during that downturn, technology was rapidly advancing and making all the employees jobs simpler/easier, and many jobs became redundant.

To the “Old Sweats” this, (merger/down-turn) was not supposed to happen, “ pay should be going up…..like it did in the early ‘90s, benefits should be better ” so dissention arose and through it all the customer service as well as just plain service suffered as many employees greeted each day with their mantra of “me-me-me…what about me……… my life plans have been shot to hell.”

Out west a little company started up, brand new, with employees who had no ingrained adverse work ethic….They were out to do the job, do it well, and although wages and benefits were important, they were NOT the driving force in “the little airline that could”.

They went back to an operation where the “guest” became the hub of the wheel and all employees were spokes in the wheel…there to support the “hub”.

In the meantime, AC rife with internal turmoil and many employees failing to realize that the game had changed continued to sink lower, even after it stood on the brink of elimination and found its way out of the wilderness. I would venture to say most employees never thought about losing their jobs…”wasn’t going to happen”. How close were they?……I guess someone knows.

One only has to realize that the many employees that are always finding fault with AC are those that were hired before, or shortly after, (lets say 10 years), privatization. They are the most vocal and for some reason have failed to see that the aviation industry has changed forever, will never be the same, and yet they feel they are entitled to have WAWCON that their predecessors had.

How do I arrive at this conclusion? Naturally all of the above is just my opinion. I must say that when we went from CP to AC all of us were truly amazed at hearing/seeing the most prevalent attitude of, “This is how my grandfather and my father did it…..so we don’t want to change it.” Even then, (year 2000), trying to get more productive changes in just the Flight Operations aspect of the company was like trying to tattoo a soap bubble.

One only has to read the many postings on the ACPA website to realize that the new-hires, (Year 2000 and up), just want to get on with the job, slowly change things that they feel need changing and would be most happy if all the “me-me-me” birds left the company. Employee morale could certainly stand an injection of positivism; no doubt about it, but the attitude of “what can I do to improve this companies operation/image and in turn effect positive change for me and my fellow employees?” is just not there……….yet.

In the meantime………..well …..wait and see…it’s going to be a rocky ride..

(((((flame away ...I'm going for Shiraz..now ))))

[sjsa]

Seems fair to me. Of interest is the AC focus on CP and other infighting distracted the company long enough to allow WJ a foothold in the market place. They should have listened to Rommel, "never let them off the beach".

[deicer]

May I correct you....

The infighting between the AC and CP employees meant that they were distracted from the fact that Milton was bleeding the company dry.

Carry on

Iceman

[Thebean]

Seems fair to me. Of interest is the AC focus on CP and other infighting distracted the company long enough to allow WJ a foothold in the market place. They should have listened to Rommel, "never let them off the beach".

......and how would you have proposed to do that, Erwin?

[John S.]

... was like trying to tattoo a soap bubble.

Excellent. Make that up yourself?

(I may borrow it and would want to credit the author.)

[Kip Powick]

Excellent. Make that up yourself?

(I may borrow it and would want to credit the author.)

I think I read it in an essay discussing "criticism" ...it just seems appropriate at times, when approaching the impossible..... should be credited to JM Brown

[Fido]

Seems fair to me. Of interest is the AC focus on CP and other infighting distracted the company long enough to allow WJ a foothold in the market place. They should have listened to Rommel, "never let them off the beach".

It was voiced around headquarters back in 2000, that it was impossible for AC to maintain anything above 60% market share. A number we pulled out of the air but it was close to the 50%-55% that was historically AC share. There were too many things against one company holding any more than that.

Things like the competition bureau, government policy but mostly the public desire to see the little guy, any little guy succeed at the expense of the 'monopoly' carrier. I see that AC is now down to about 55% market share and it has been there for a few years now.

The problem back in 2000 to 2005 was not how to maintain 90% market share but to get the people at the top to realize that there was no way to maintain such a share. These people did not include RM as he was quite willing to let the domestic share slide and the problem became how to let it slide in an orderly manner.

[sjsa]

......and how would you have proposed to do that, Erwin?

How would I know. Just glad they didn't find a way since I was on a landing craft just behind you

[newgirl]

I too am speaking my POV from Dotland but as one who started with AC in 1973. My base was considered among many at that time to be a secondary base with close to a hundred people working in it.

The base had a reservations office, a ticket office, airport checkin counters, ramp workers, Sales department, Human Resources, District manager and a few mechanics.

We all worked damned hard at providing good service to our passengers. Privitization in 88 didn't change the way we did our work. We only had to work harder as vacancies weren't filled.

In 90 or 91 many reservation offices ,ticket offices, Human Resources and mechanics in the now smaller bases were closed .Ticketing was now done at the airport. Air BC expanded as far as YWG and Air Ontario into YWG from the east to replace our DC9's.

Did we like the change of course not. We had DC9's with 100 seats and now we have Dash8's with 39 or 50 seats. Kudos to Air BC as they were always wonderful to work with.

Then came the "forced merger". Milton's biggest mistake was that he didn't mandate "Welcome to Air Canada and this is how we do business"indoctrination courses to the CP employees. Where was our Human Resources manager head at?

So many CP employees came in with a very bitter attitude and we also resented them as we had lost so many employees to lay-offs. Now we had to absorb 20000 more. Why because we wanted the Asian market and we couldm't get the rights to fly the routes unless we bought the whole CP package.

There aren't many OAC left working in the airports most are OCP. It has changed what AC once was.

WE were very good at our jobs.

In hindsight, we should have let CP go under. I know, I'm bad for saying that but we were financally holding our own until the merger.

[Cargo Agent]

Kip;

"Flame away?" Hm- odd thing to say to our little group here. Is that what you desire?, because with extremely rare exceptions, civility rules no matter what.

I'm not sure I understand why you keep re-introducing these divisive issues, but there it is. I think everyone here understands your points from old - there's nothing new in your post that adds to this long, sad merger dialogue.

You say this is all just your opinion and I accept that at face value including everything written after the above statement. You have concluded that because we were a crown corporation that we adopted a slothful and irresponsible attitude and character that hasn't disappeared to this day and is (perhaps?) the likely reason we are once again in such poor shape.

If you want to examine history which wasn't included in your version, ...from Peter Pigott's book on Canadi>n Airlines, "Wingwalkers", (2nd ed):

Given the quotes from the reference book on CAI's history, your comment that, "TCA/AC really didn’t care if they lost money or made a profit…just like most government organizations in those days." is not without it's parallels in private industry, Kip.

We're all trying our best as employees though we now realize you're of the opinion that we did not, and are not still.

AC has it's serious problems; anyone can see that - a lot was done in 2003. Without the present financial crisis, it may even have been sufficient - we'll never know, now.

As always, there is a kernel of truth in what you say regarding "government attitudes" - but surely things have not remained stagnant over twenty years, have they? Are "government attitudes" solely to blame for Air Canada's present troubles? Do you set aside 9/11, SARS, the merger and now the worst financial crisis since 1929?

But if you want to get into really comparing airline managements, governments that at varying times have played favourites on both sides of the fence, employee faults, employee shortcomings and employee whinings and gripes, I'll come to that party because there's plenty of material, but really, is this the kind of dialogue we want at this time?

I'm sorry Kip, but I see no reason for your post and only see a raising of dormant hurt and frustration that things haven't gone well with either corporation. It may be "just your opinion", to which of course, you are entitled, (and so am I, in rebuttal), but as I read it, it's a shxt-disturbing one that seems to have no point other than to keep old wounds open.

Are you happy now that AC is down to a buck-fifty and that ACE has left the building with all the cash? Perhaps as dagger observes it isn't such a bad thing having to make it flying airplanes to make money - let's hope we can, for our dot's sake alone, n'est pas?

Don, thanks once again for an eloquent post.

[Kip Powick]

Don/Cargo Agent,

Take the post for what its worth and I think you will find thast I DID NOT dwell on the merger factor...but it would seem that some still do...re other posts. So many are still carrying that cross and as trite as the old saying is, "Its time to get over it". There is an attitude that will be here until the last of the 2000 employees are gone...so sad.

My point is this, and only this. The industry has changed..oh yeh, many agree but many DO NOT change within the industry and many are still living and attempting to work as they did in years gone past.

While it is difficult to get the message across on the Net it appears to me that the thrust of my post was that many employee's attitude had better change at AC or the whole show will be back on stage once again.. I don't give a rats butt if you are RED, GREEN, BLUE, or PURPLE, the dominant attitude needs a reality check. Where did that attitude start??? Well I made my guess...what's yours?

Don, the tone in your post is mainly "defensive" and rehashes what was "then" and not what is happening now. While it is true that if we don't learn from history we are doomed to make the same mistakes, I think AC is past that point now...except for those that are still carrying a cross for one aspect or another of the companies history.

The history of CP/PWA/WD etc is NOT relevant today so quoting what others wrote is not relevant to the problems facing AC now.

Perhaps I was not entirely clear with respect to poor attitude that many employees carry today and PLEASE bear in mind I did not infer ALL AC employees in my post.

We're all trying our best as employees 

Not true, in my opinion...perhaps in your circle they were, but if that is the actual case why do we continually read about episodes of crappy service on the ground and in the air?.......are the subjects in these episodes really trying their best ????

Asking me if I am happy about AC stock going down the dumper is insulting, to say the least. You feel I might be just stirring the pot as "a troubled individual" who has been frustrated with the goings on of "both corporations". Don, there is only ONE corporation that employees should be worried about, crying a river about what has long past is certainly not fruitful and to be honest you seem to be bring up more about the two corp syndrome than I ever alluded to.

My comment to "flame away" was posted for a purpose because as we know there are a few here who will feel that me as an exCPer should not be commenting about AC and therein lies the problem. The fact that I was an ex CPer, is NOT a factor in my opinion, with respect to the issues of TODAY. Seems like many are still carrying the cross about the merger and as unusual as it may seem, that is NOT the case with me. I retired out of AC, NOT CP or WD and I find it embarassing to see the situation AC is in now and the attitude/position it is in started somewhere, and to debate where it started accomplishes nothing but I think we all can have our opinions about the birth of the malaise,..yes?

What is important is to get over the past and get on with the business of today....but I am sure you, as a retired pilot, have looked at the ACPA forum and read the lack of unity and firm direction there.

You. Cargo Agent, Newgirl and others did your time, lived through turbulent times but if all of you can not see that MANY of the working employees need an attitude adjustment, then you are living in the past and looking at the present through rose colored glasses.

Newgirl....

we were financally holding our own until the merger.

Another piece of misinformation and although very wrong, is NOT relevant to the business of today. I'm happy you had a good life and a fine career and it may surprise you to find that I did too. I would not change a thing in my life, I had the best of the best, IMO, but I always look at today, and the possible future, because dwelling in what has past is not productive and I only have so much productive time left

[conehead]

My point is this, and only this. The industry has changed..oh yeh, many agree but many DO NOT change within the industry and many are still living and attempting to work as they did in years gone past.

Kip; working in Maintenance, in YYZ, I interact with hundreds of other employees on a daily basis. Some ex CP, some ex Wardair, some original Air Canada. Doesn't matter what company we started out working for, we're all the same. In the line maintenance game, the goal is really pretty simple; we try and fix broken airplanes, do some scheduled maintenance, push the flights through. Day after day, push the flights through. Seems to me, all the people I meet have a pretty good attitude. We try our best, with limited support from higher up the food chain. Many of us could (and have) made some attempts at making the operation run smoother, only to be shot down by "Management". So, we have come to the realization that it feels good when you stop hitting your head against a brick wall.

We know that the industry has changed. We see it and live it every day. We also know that Management at Air Canada has not changed. We see that "they" are more interested in maintaining a Management/Labour relationship that was popular in the 1800's... everything is confrontational... it's a crappy environment to work in.

In my opinion, if things are to change, it has to start at the top. Leadership is what we need, and we don't see much today. I can't stress how important good leadership is. Without it, I don't think this company will survive. In YYZ Maintenance, there are currently many vacancies for Leaders. No one of any ability will fill those positions, because they know that they will get no support from higher up, and they can not survive in those positions. We see how they get treated. They get slapped down, stomped on. Why would anyone volunteer for that?

Leadership.

[Jaydee]

"Another piece of misinformation and although very wrong, "

I'm happy  because dwelling in what has past is not productive and I only have so much productive time left

Kip,

Are you really so happy?

If dwelling on the past is so non productive, then why have you just spent so much time and effort doing it? 98% of your post relates to the past.

Seems you just couldn't slap NewGirls post fast enough by saying she was "very wrong".

The history is what it is. You have your version. Let other people have theirs.

Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

JayDee

[FireFox]

I too am speaking my POV from Dotland but as one who started with AC in 1973. My base was considered among many at that time to be a secondary base with close to a hundred people working in it.

The base had a reservations office, a ticket office, airport checkin counters, ramp workers, Sales department, Human Resources, District manager and a few mechanics.

We all worked damned hard at providing good service to our passengers. Privitization in 88 didn't change the way we did our work. We only had to work harder as vacancies weren't filled.

In 90 or 91 many reservation offices ,ticket offices, Human Resources and mechanics in the now smaller bases were closed .Ticketing was now done at the airport. Air BC expanded as far as YWG and Air Ontario into YWG from the east to replace our DC9's.

Did we like the change of course not. We had DC9's with 100 seats and now we have Dash8's with 39 or 50 seats. Kudos to Air BC as they were always wonderful to work with.

Then came the "forced merger". Milton's biggest mistake was that he didn't mandate "Welcome to Air Canada and this is how we do business"indoctrination courses to the CP employees. Where was our Human Resources manager head at?

So many CP employees came in with a very bitter attitude  and we also resented them as we had lost so many employees to lay-offs. Now we had to absorb 20000 more. Why because we wanted the Asian market and we couldm't get the rights to fly the routes unless we bought the whole CP package.

There aren't many OAC left working in the airports most are OCP. It has changed what AC once was.

WE were very good at our jobs.

In hindsight, we should have let CP go under. I know, I'm bad for saying that but we were financally holding our own until the merger.

Very good post newgirl, I concur 100%.

Kip, if you want to see a workforce with a "job for life" attitude you only have to look at your original Canadian group & their NO LAYOFF CLAUSES which, imho, doomed your airline.

I can't believe you'd be starting a thread on this crap. Get over it.

PS newgirl, looks like your Roughies signed a good one - Clermont.

[John S.]

Now that this thread is already bouncing between the topic walls I'll point out a heap of steaming point-of-view in the middle of the room.

A week or two ago the YVR ground handlers were to bid on their work schedules for the next six months. This is not new, in fact I'll bet that the ground handlers have been bidding on work schedules for decades.

As you may know, because Jazz pilots do so many legs, and on each one we have face-to-face contact with the leads and ramp workers (we still get the loads hand delivered on a piece of paper) we get to know many of them by first name. And a few by nick-name - but those are the special ones. (Ya, Moose I'm thinking of you....)

Now, with this last bid for ground crews something special happened.

The Managers, proposing that all workers switch to five & two, managed to pizz off EVERYONE on the ramp! Even the most friendly, dedicated rampies. This is not was easy as you may think as some rampies really enjoy their jobs and working conditions. (You can tell by the smiles when a 'fav' F/A is standing in the open door as the bridge driver does his thing. By the way guys - it's a teeny bit obvious when crews from other flights actually come to watch as the most experienced bridge operator takes five minutes to struggle it over.)

My point -> perhaps Kip is right: Some things have not changed over the years.

[FireFox]

(You can tell by the smiles when a 'fav' F/A is standing in the open door as the bridge driver does his thing. By the way guys - it's a teeny bit obvious when crews from other flights actually come to watch as the most experienced bridge operator takes five minutes to struggle it over.)

The job that really seems to take a lot of time thou is putting the stair railing up & down on the R.J.

[Slim]

Hi John

In order to clarify, the uproar over the shift change was noticed by the "bosses" and they have changed it back. They are rebidding or have recently rebid their shifts.

I still expect to see the usual suspects at the gate though :-)

Slim

[Guest rozar s'macco]

The worst thing about AC is the thought that the company exists purely to siphon money out for foreign hedge funds and investment banks. Now that the endgame is clear- it was a raid all along, and not a restructuring- can we please get on with flying people from A to B? We are good at it; as good or better than anyone else on the planet.

If you hate your job, please quit and leave the rest of us who are happy alone. If you are a pilot and hate flying- please leave. If you serve customers, but hate customer service- please leave. If you are responsible for fleet serviceability, but hate fixing things- please leave. And if you load bags but hate working outside and lifting things- please leave. Life will be better for all of us!

It does begin and end at the top, however. Now that Milton and the hedge funds have left the building and hung up the phone, perhaps we can move on.

[Guest]

Then came the "forced merger". Milton's biggest mistake was that he didn't mandate "Welcome to Air Canada and this is how we do business"indoctrination courses to the CP employees. Where was our Human Resources manager head at?

So many CP employees came in with a very bitter attitude  and we also resented them as we had lost so many employees to lay-offs. Now we had to absorb 20000 more. Why because we wanted the Asian market and we couldm't get the rights to fly the routes unless we bought the whole CP package.

There aren't many OAC left working in the airports most are OCP. It has changed what AC once was.

WE were very good at our jobs.

In hindsight, we should have let CP go under. I know, I'm bad for saying that but we were financally holding our own until the merger.

Moving back and rehashing the merger is generally counter productive, so I'll leave further discussions to others after my post. Again, it is my opinion based on my experience. others are free to their own perspectiv which I respect as well.

From my experience, many CP employees in the station where I worked (including myself) embraced the merger and looked forward to the day we "intermingled." For many, it was merger #2 or 3 and nothing new for them. It was more of a chance to put the past behind us and finally move on.

We were greeted with the "Welcome to Air Canada and this is how we do business" indoctrination. It was probably the thing that set back the integration the most.

The AC managers were nice, but had no idea how to deal with the cultural issues that were poisoning the workplace daily as some of the nastier AC ramp agents took every opportunity to tell us how bad our previous airline was, how stupid our procedures were and how we should have let you go broke so you could have begged for a job at AC. The managers just stood there silent every day, permitting a poisoned culture.

Try coming to work every day to that welcome at the door from your new crew members?

A little over a year later, I was now in a management role with AC and started to get a lot of questions from the AC managers... how did you guys do this...how did you guys do that? I was their go to guy as all of the other CP managers were let go after Sept 11th

Well, low and behold, AC started to implement some of the old CP processes as if they were new and innovative??

The AC crowd was insulted we would do anything from the CP world and took it out on the CP crowd by refusing to follow the processes. Management didn't do much if anything to address. They'd just watch and tell everybody that "he'll get over it eventually."

The only guy I ever had respect for on this front was Norbert Manger (Airports VP) who was on a station visit and personally saw this behaviour. He was the only one big enough to stand up and address it infront of a large crowd.

Reflecting on the merger, I think the thing that would have helped most would have been some effective leadership and change management for all managers, so they could havebeen more proactive to address those on both sides who were poisoning the workplace. Instead, they took their most comfortable stand. "Just do your job, that's what you get paid for."

Instead, they had 2 councellors on station for about 6 months, so that once someone had been over stressed, demeaned or threatened, they could talk to someone. A little bit backwards which is why no one used them.

The only thing that really helped the integration were the 3-4 AC guys who were leaders and had an open mind. Not to say others weren't nice people, but these guys took a chance at alienating themselves from their AC peers and welcomed us to their family. It was a bold step to be seen having coffee with a CP guy back then, but they did it and it made a difference. Those guys were respected by the AC crowd, and it helped start to bring people together.

About 5 years into the merger, our station finally started to move forward and people finally realized that things were not going back to the way they used to be.

This was almost entirely based on the efforts of those 3-4 AC guys who understood change management and team dynamics from their experiences playing sports. Now, the staff is well integarted and you see people from both sides spending time together socially, going to each others weddings, etc...

The biggest issue with the merged AC was that the leadership cared much more about numbers than people (both AC and CP alike). This is why there has been such an exodus of quality leaders and in influx of new and inexperienced leaders on the frontline.

When Six Sigma was launched, the high fliers and future leaders of AC (as Robert Milton, Calin Rovinescue and Paul Brotto addressed us as)were all sent to YUL for the first wave of training.

Of those initial classes, I would venture that about 60-70% of those people (the supposed future of the airline) are no longer with the airline. The ones that are still at AC are typically the ones who are tied to their retirement plans and can't go. The younger and more mobile ones who had hoped for a future at AC realized that the culture wasn't going to change any time soon and decided to move on while they had the chance.

The problem today is the same as it was at integration. AC executives are not able to, or don't wish to foster a true culture where people matter. I've moved on, but some of my best friends (both AC and CP) are still there working as frontline managers and agents, and they all feel the same way. People aren't a priority.

[Kip Powick]

Kip,

Are you really so happy?

If dwelling on the past is so non productive, then why have you just spent so much time and effort doing it?  98% of your post relates to the past.

Seems you just couldn't slap NewGirls post fast enough by saying she was "very wrong".

The history is what it is. You have your version. Let other people have theirs.

Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

JayDee

Well you didn't disappoint me Jaydee, as I knew you would be one of the first chomping at the bit.

Your comment about dwelling on the past is not relevant. How could I make the points that I do without referring to the past?

Opinions and POVs are based on experience and I think I have enough experience to feel free to issue a POV.

Reference Newgirl's post......she is entritled to her opinion, I merely pointed out that her impression of "what was" ............was not true. If you want to dispute that we can start another thread and throw up some numbers.

There is no personal versions of history, there is only the truth, and eventually it will come forth. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, we all know that is a given, but just because someone's opinion differs, to a high degree, from yours does not mean it does not contain any validity. In many cases people do not want to hear the truth.

Am I really happy ??????????? Read my tag line...I couldn't sum it up better than that.

[AME]

Not true, in my opinion...perhaps in your circle they were, but if that is the actual case why do we continually read about episodes of crappy service on the ground and in the air?.......

Kip

One could blame all of the employee attitude issues on the Pilots.... You tend to hold yourselves up as the leaders of the employee groups and all the rest of the groups have seen, since the early 90's (at least) is the me, me , me attitude of the Pilot groups, from the scope clauses at AC and CP (neither one were in the best interest of the companies) to the continued infighting and lawsuits over seniority since the merger.

So as the supposed leaders you've set a fine example of how to be a stellar company employee.

JMHO (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

how's that for a different spin?

[Kip Powick]

Gate Keeper

Kip, if you want to see a workforce with a "job for life" attitude you only have to look at your original Canadian group & their NO LAYOFF CLAUSES which, imho, doomed your airline.

What relevance is your (untrue), statement to the problems that face the AC workforce now??

Your statement is just another disparaging comment based on pure speculatuion and smacks of having to cast blame on something, or someone for the situation that AC now faces.

What are you doing NOW to make the situation better?

[Kip Powick]

Kip

One could blame all of the employee attitude issues on the Pilots.... You tend to hold yourselves up as the leaders of the employee groups and all the rest of the groups have seen, since the early 90's (at least) is the me, me , me attitude of the Pilot groups, from the scope clauses at AC and CP (neither one were in the best interest of the companies) to the continued infighting and lawsuits over seniority since the merger.

So as the supposed leaders you've set a fine example of how to be a stellar company employee.

JMHO (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

how's that for a different spin?

AME

Absolutely true.............the pilot merger was/is a debacle of the greatest magnitude.

I don't want to get into discussing that topic because it tends to annoy just about everyone but you are very correct , the pilots, as an entire group did not serve the company well at the outset.

I would like to point out though that pilots are basically a non-issue when it comes to being "out front" with the public.

The publics perception starts with that phone call to Res, (if they still do that), and then the Check-in agent and gate personnel and finally the cabin crew. Pilots are mere bus drivers and may say "g-bye" at the door but it is the front line workers that carry tha ball with respect to "impression". (Pilots don't want to hear that cause the only thing bigger than most pilots ego is ............(take your pick)

The support staff, rampies, maintenance etc., are an intergral part of the wheel but unfortunately don't seem to get the kudos they deserve from the public...but they seem to live with that anomaly.

However, back to your initial point......I really don't think you can hold all the pilots responsible for some of the employees poor attitude...maybe some, but not all

[conehead]

The Managers, proposing that all workers switch to five & two, managed to pizz off EVERYONE on the ramp! Even the most friendly, dedicated rampies.

This is a good example of the point I made. The confrontational attitude displayed by Management in all departments. How can we improve our company when we have to deal with this crap?

[deicer]

The worst thing about AC is the thought that the company exists purely to siphon money out for foreign hedge funds and investment banks. Now that the endgame is clear- it was a raid all along, and not a restructuring- can we please get on with flying people from A to B? We are good at it; as good or better than anyone else on the planet.

If you hate your job, please quit and leave the rest of us who are happy alone. If you are a pilot and hate flying- please leave. If you serve customers, but hate customer service- please leave. If you are responsible for fleet serviceability, but hate fixing things- please leave. And if you load bags but hate working outside and lifting things- please leave. Life will be better for all of us!

It does begin and end at the top, however. Now that Milton and the hedge funds have left the building and hung up the phone, perhaps we can move on.

Bravo Sir! Well said....