Election prediction

[Guest rattler]

Who are you or anyone else to criticize people for not voting? It's a choice and a choice many chose to make.

I don't mind those who didn't vote as long as THEY DON'T BITCH ABOUT THE OUTCOME"

[Moon The Loon]

Who are you or anyone else to criticize people for not voting? It's a choice and a choice many chose to make.

It is not only a right in our society, it is a responsibility. If you don't like the choices presented to you, spoil your ballot. If you are physically unable to vote, different story. If you're too damm lazy to care, then you have no right to criticize anything done by the government you failed to participate in.

Who am I? Who Are You? If you or anybody want to criticize any future government policy, then be honest enough to add "4 of 10" to your post.

Nothing personal. I'm just sick and tired of our form of government which has lead to not only the way you are thinking, but the way so many Canadians are thinking. 4 in 10 to be somewhat precise. There's more interest in the Obama/McCain race than what has just transpired here.

Shameful.

[Guest rattler]

Talking about the US race, is anyone going to take in the final TV debate tonight?

As far as caring about the US results, we damn well better care. They are our biggest trading partner and depending on who wins, we could see major negative effects on our trade with them.

However, that being said, I continue to believe in CANADA FIRST as a personal policy.

What is strange about our system is that the other National parties could not change how the Conservatives run the country without the aid of the only party whose major policy is to breakup Canada. Go figure.

[chockalicious]

Moon I think you are exactly right.

Spoil your ballot if yiou can't support any of the parties or candidates.

Make at least some effort to engage the process.

4/10 = a big glass of STFU on any political issues.

[CanadaEH]

You should direct your disgust to the politicians running this country. Don't blame the people for not voting. It's insulting to see these parties trying to portray their leaders as people they are quite obviously not. The photo ops were pathetic. The personal attacks were pathetic. The promises... what's a promise, anyway?

[Mitch Cronin]

I'm with Moon. I think it is a sort of a civic duty to vote. Not voting cuts your opinion's value to absolute zero, and allows the will of too few to choose who governs. ...it renders accountability and governance more vulnerable to special interests.

[CanadaEH]

4/10 = a big glass of STFU on any political issues.

I think thats BS. Politics have never been something I have had any interest in up until maybe a year or two ago. I have a right to form my own opinion on what party I want to vote for and I'm not going to base that opinion on a small window of a year or two. History tells us a lot, and the older you get, the wiser you become on the politicians, parties, policies, etc. I see that in the posts I read here. When I become more familiar with the politicians and parties and the policies they support or don't, maybe I'll become more engaged. Until then, I'll quietly sit on the sidelines and follow the debates and discussions with a bit of interest..

[Moon The Loon]

You should direct your disgust to the politicians running this country.

Without votes, politicians don't exist. I don't want to look at this discussion as a chicken vs egg debate. (And like I said, this isn't personal - it's a discussion)

Without significant numbers of spoiled ballots, political systems cannot change in areas they need change. If "status quo" and NIMBY are your mantras, then be happy in your universe.

As an individual voter who is not happy with the universe we call Canada, and being an individual with extremely little influence in outcomes such as we saw last night, I, along with every other Canadian, rely on the Masses to come to the aid of the party. Whichever Party.

If you get 59% on your ATPL exams, you fail. Perhaps we need a law that states if voter turnout is below a certain level, the entire election is nullified and all seats remain as they were before the dissolution of Parliament.

Now THAT would be a change in the system I could swallow.

[chockalicious]

I think thats BS. Politics have never been something I have had any interest in up until maybe a year or two ago. I have a right to form my own opinion on what party I want to vote for and I'm not going to base that opinion on a small window of a year or two. History tells us a lot, and the older you get, the wiser you become on the politicians, parties, policies, etc. I see that in the posts I read here. When I become more familiar with the politicians and parties and the policies they support or don't, maybe I'll become more engaged. Until then, I'll quietly sit on the sidelines and follow the debates and discussions with a bit of interest..

I think you made the same point I was making.

If you don't vote, sit on the sidelines and STFU, although I realize that I probably should have said "sit quietly on the sidelines" and not STFU.

Engage the process or offer an alternative.

[Guest rattler]

Then there are those who will not accept reality. Note the mention of their non-elected Senators, I guess we can expect the Senate to continue to be a problem.

The following is from http://www.liberal.ca/story_15452_e.aspx

October 15, 2008

Thank you!

When this election was called some five weeks ago, our Party faced an uphill battle. Now, thanks to the hard work of the Liberal team—everyone from our Leader to the newest volunteer—Canadians have seen that the Liberal Party is truly the party with the message of hope for our country.

Over the course of this campaign, we presented an action plan for the future that has been endorsed by big city mayors, by students, by environmentalists and businesspeople, and so many others. We can all take great pride in the unparalleled number of women candidates who ran under the Liberal banner this year. As well, the work of Parliament will benefit greatly from the presence of so many accomplished Canadians who will be sitting on the Liberal benches.

Now that the election is behind us, we must prepare for a new session of Parliament, where our MPs and Senators will be called on to address some serious challenges, including the global financial downturn, the weakening Canadian economy, and others. At the same time, it is important to recognize the time and energy offered so willingly by so many thousands of Liberal volunteers in every part of this great country.

This is our party, and it is through our efforts that we are able to accomplish so much for our fellow Canadians. Now, let us get on with the task of building a richer, fairer and greener Canada!

[chockalicious]

Talking about the US race, is anyone going to take in the final TV debate tonight?

As far as caring about the US results, we damn well better care. They are our biggest trading partner and depending on who wins, we could see major negative effects on our trade with them.

However, that being said, I continue to believe in CANADA FIRST as a personal policy.

What is strange about our system is that the other National parties could not change how the Conservatives run the country without the aid of the only party whose major policy is to breakup Canada. Go figure.

Hell Yes

The US sneezes and Canada catches a cold.

I admit I am a junkie for some of the political stuff. Watching what is happening in the US is absolutley fascinating and I continue to hope for the implosion of the Republican party.

Maybe then they can get back to some of their core values of conservatism and not be so beholden to the wingnut element in their party.

[Thebean]

"Voter turnout was just 59 per cent, the lowest in federal election history."

Shameful. To any and all of you who did not vote. 4 out of 10 of us did not vote. 40% of what is posted here as criticism in the future months is totally invalid. When asked "Well, did you vote?", there's a 4 in 10 chance the poster is lying if they say "Yes"

There is much to be shameful about this debacle. Harper's intransigence to Newfoundland (notwithstanding Danny W is a bit of a wingnut); Harper's idiot interference in the Quebec civil law system; Harper's stupid promise to withhold funding for the arts in one of Canada's most prolific province for creation of the arts. (Like it or not. It's politics). Harper's western vanity that led him to call the election in the first place in violation of his dogma to never call an election for partisan reasons; Harper's waste of nearly half a BILLION dollars which was the price of this fiasco.

And Harper is not alone. Dion's lack of vision which blinded him to the stupid campaign centred on the carbon tax ESPECIALLY in light of the failure of the program in BC.

To save the Liberal party the expense of a leadership review in May, Dion should just resign and change the leadership review to a leadership convention. If the Liberals then want to assure Harper of a majority in the next election, they'll elect Bob Rae as the new leader.

I hate the idea of not having voted, but from experience, there are a number of scenarios out there that make it very difficult to vote if you are traveling outside Canada for an extended period, commencing just after an election is called.

The technology exists to make this a lot easier for Canadians overseas.

[conehead]

Then there are those who will not accept reality. Note the mention of their non-elected Senators, I guess we can expect the Senate to continue to be a problem.

Unless the Senate happens to be convenient for the Conservatives. Take Michael Fortier for instance. Harper appointed him to the Senate and then made him a Cabinet Minister. Fortier then runs for a seat in the Commons, and last night he lost. Will he still hold that seat in the Senate so that he can sit in Harper's Cabinet?

[Guest rattler]

Hope so.....

[UpperDeck]

I'm a 40 per center. And I'll briefly tell you why. I cast my vote for an individual representative. That person is elected. In caucus, that representative dares to communicate in forceful terms the will of the people represented. And is then seen as something less than a "team player".

And if that representative should have the temerity to express dissent in a public forum, then they are at risk of being ejected from caucus.

In short, my vote is really only for the person that I wish to be the Prime Minister. And if my selection is "none of the above", then my options are to abstain from exercising my franchise or , according to some here, destroy my ballot. And if you think that a plethora of destroyed ballots will somehow result in changes to our Parliamentary system.....well, I admire your idealism.

[Guest woxof]

There is much to be shameful about this debacle. Harper's intransigence to Newfoundland (notwithstanding Danny W is a bit of a wingnut); Harper's idiot interference in the Quebec civil law system; Harper's stupid promise to withhold funding for the arts in one of Canada's most prolific province for creation of the arts. (Like it or not. It's politics). Harper's western vanity that led him to call the election in the first place in violation of his dogma to never call an election for partisan reasons; Harper's waste of nearly half a BILLION dollars which was the price of this fiasco.

Harper should be intransigent to Newfoundland. They want to have their huge income from natural resources yet still have taxpayers from the rest of the country subsidize them. If ever there was an example of leadership comparison it is Harper vs. Martin. Martin caved at the taking down of the Canadian flag by Danny Williams for one reason only....votes. Harper stood firm from all the blistering attacks and refused to budge despite losses of seats. The only thing Harper should have done better is admitting his promise was wrong and a mistake.

Good leadership Stephen.

Harper was bang on for making cuts to arts programs. Taxpayers money to a group called Holy F*ck being cut are typical of how our money is wasted. Paying people for vacations in Europe for artists to perform over there instead of here. Hundreds of thousands of dollars to fly a giant banana over Texas. It goes on and on. These people seem to think they have a right to my money. Well, in my opinion they don't and there is much more I suspect that should be cut.

Excellent start Stephen(but extremely poor political timing)

Harper is also bang on about getting tough on repeat and violent offenders. These people need to be taken off the streets instead of getting off easy at the expense of ruined lives of more innocent people. If Quebecers feelings are hurt and don't like it...too bad. I don't like violent offenders and repeat offenders harming me physically.

Don't give in Stephen. Put it through parliament soon.

Finally there is the 300 million dollar waste of election money. First of all, it was going to be spent anyways on an election in a year. Second of all, the opposition seemed to have no qualms about threatening to bring down the government resulting in the same expediture(and they would have if they thought they could win). If someone says that Harper broke the "spirit" of the law, then they are bang on and I agree. Why? because it is the truth and that is all that matters and that is all I post(along with opinions that which I state is an opinion).

Woxof

[Moon The Loon]

if you think that a plethora of destroyed ballots will somehow result in changes to our Parliamentary system.....well, I admire your idealism.

Changing a system takes time - a lot of time. There are ways to precipitate change. History has shown this time after time. Doing nothing changes nothing. Living in a society limits one's rights in some respects but adds to one's responsibilities in others. Part of the increased burden of an individual living in a society is consideration/protection of others. This we do through government.

By not voting, especially by choice, one shows contempt for others within one's society. In my opinion.

Again, nothing personal. There are increasing numbers of people in our western society that have never bothered to learn about their political system, nor tried by any means to change what they don't like.

Maybe next time. Just food for thought.

[yul07]

Not sureUpper deck I agree there have been Leaders who welcomed differing opinions in as long as they remained in the fold. One of the great tenets of a great leader is to value the opinions of your troops, as long as everybody realizes it’s your call in the end, and a decision is a decision. Unfortunately we do not have one of these leaders now. I give this government 18 months at the most if not a year. By then the libs will have a new leader, Harper will not always get his way and we will once again be told that parliament is not working so we have to go to the polls. Canadians will be "Naughty Word". The libs will win, and Harper will be out. Then the cons will pick an elect able leader and sweep to power.

[handyman]

Not sureUpper deck I agree there have been Leaders who welcomed differing opinions in as long as they remained in the fold. One of the great tenets of a great leader is to value the opinions of your troops, as long as everybody realizes it’s your call in the end, and a decision is a decision. Unfortunately we do not have one of these leaders now. I give this government 18 months at the most if not a year. By then the libs will have a new leader, Harper will not always get his way and we will once again be told that parliament is not working so we have to go to the polls. Canadians will be "Naughty Word". The libs will win, and Harper will be out. Then the cons will pick an elect able leader and sweep to power.

Are you kidding?

We just had one of the most effective governments in the past two decades! They now have more seats and no longer can be removed with a Liberal and one other partnership. Now all 3 opposition parties must vote against the Cons to get them out, which I don't have a problem with as it keeps them honest that way.

Mark my words, this government will be in for the full term.

As for the Libs, Dion will fight to stay which is great news for the Cons. Besides, who else would you get...Tru Junior?

[yul07]

Not kidding at all. Had Harper stayed the full term like he promised would have glided to victory next fall with his vaunted majority. Harper does not play well with others and the same personality trats that allowed him to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory will happen again. With a new liberal leader you can bet there will be one of those issues that comes along in 12 to 18 months where the opposition will have to pull the plug or Harper will do it saying he can't work with parliament. Remember it was harper not the party that failed, and not winning a majority is a failure.

[UpperDeck]

Changing a system takes time - a lot of time. There are ways to precipitate change. History has shown this time after time. Doing nothing changes nothing. Living in a society limits one's rights in some respects but adds to one's responsibilities in others. Part of the increased burden of an individual living in a society is consideration/protection of others. This we do through government.

By not voting, especially by choice, one shows contempt for others within one's society. In my opinion.

Again, nothing personal. There are increasing numbers of people in our western society that have never bothered to learn about their political system, nor tried by any means to change what they don't like.

Maybe next time. Just food for thought.

Moon....

I understand your position and if I simply chose to stand on the sidelines and hurl epithets I think I would reasonably be the target of some criticism.

However, I did in fact hold elected office for 10 years. I was once an assistant to a former Federal cabinet minister and I was actively involved in Provincial politics some few years ago.

That is recited only to say that for many years I did a whole lot more in pursuit of civic duty than cast a vote (not diminishing the importance of same). I also note that in the numerous debates on this forum regarding the relative merits of the leaders and their parties, I held my "tongue" (cursor) except to suggest that civility and tolerance should be the hallmark of Canadian political dialogue----and was not being evidenced on this forum in many instances.

[Guest rattler]

Not kidding at all. Had Harper stayed the full term like he promised would have glided to victory next fall with his vaunted majority. Harper does not play well with others and the same personality trats that allowed him to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory will happen again. With a new liberal leader you can bet there will be one of those issues that comes along in 12 to 18 months where the opposition will have to pull the plug or Harper will do it saying he can't work with parliament. Remember it was harper not the party that failed, and not winning a majority is a failure.

Are you sure there will be a New Liberal Leader (at least soon)? Seems that Mr Dion may have made his mind up to fight for his job.

Dion asserted during the dying days of the campaign that he would "never quit." And in his concession speech late Tuesday, Dion gave no hint that he's thinking about stepping aside.

"I love my country more than ever. Canadians asked me to be the opposition leader and I accept this responsibility with honour," he said.

But Liberals privately point to some hard realities that Dion will have to face if he's tempted to try to hang on.

-He will have to survive an automatic vote of confidence in his leadership at the party's next convention, which has been booked for May in Vancouver. All party members can pass judgment on his leadership, making the outcome much harder to control.

[Moon The Loon]

However, I did in fact hold elected office for 10 years. I was once an assistant to a former Federal cabinet minister and I was actively involved in Provincial politics some few years ago.

UD: Those are great credentials. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Service to one's country takes many forms.

For someone like myself who's political activity is limited to casting a ballot from time to time, it is all the more important to do just that when called upon by the government in power, no matter what one might think about that government. Hence my harangue.

Many, many years ago, I was more active in both provincial and federal politics during a particular "mania". Not because of what I thought or believed, but because of the social impact associated with the activity.

And social it was. Truly sociable!

[yul07]

Rattler, I think Dion is just posturing to have someone in the party cover his debts from the election. Even he must know he can't stay. Lame Ducks do exist north of the border. I feel sorry for the guy he did the best he could have done and better than most expected. But he made mistakes, often refused to consider advice, was his own man, and he will pay the price. Not that theres anyting wrong with being your own man, as long as you win, in which case they call you a strong leader.

[Guest rattler]

Too bad the Liberals can not do a leadership swap with the Bloc. I like Duceppe, but not his party. Very smart individual.

Talking about debt:

May appeals for cash to help to build Green party profile

Richard Foot, Canwest News Service

Published: Wednesday, October 15, 2008

NEW GLASGOW, N.S. - The day after she and her party failed to win a seat in the House of Commons, Green Leader Elizabeth May issued a plea for money to help prepare the party for the next election.

"I'm opportunistically asking Canadians to just get out there and give us the money," she said Wednesday. "Go to our website and make a donation . . . please help me out here folks."

May said the Greens spent $4 million on the campaign, half of which was borrowed money. She hopes to pay at least $1 million of that back before Christmas.

'Go to our website and make a donation . . . please help me out here folks.'

The party will receive roughly $1.8 million in federal funding for the more than 940,000 votes it obtained in the election - nearly double the subsidy the Greens received after the 2006 vote.

But May said she wants to use the subsidy not to repay the Greens' debt but to build the party's profile and advance its issues between now and the next election.     

And then there is the Liberal conundrum

Liberals asked to give Dion time to decide future after painful loss

Juliet O'Neill , Canwest News Service

Published: Wednesday, October 15, 2008

MONTREAL - Liberals have been asked to give Stephane Dion respect and breathing room while he decides whether to go gracefully or put up a fight for his leadership in the aftermath of his party's losses at the polls.

"If there is any message I want to send out to Liberals it is to treat Stephane with enormous respect," Senator David Smith, a national Liberal campaign co-chairman, said in an interview Wednesday.

Dion insiders said the 53-year-old Montreal MP faces an agonizing decision on whether to bow to requests from some Liberals to quickly signal that he will resign, allowing for a graceful exit, or to stick with his determined vow in the closing days of the campaign that "I am not a quitter."

The Liberals have an automatic post-election leadership review scheduled for May, but Liberals could leapfrog straight to a leadership contest sooner than that if Dion steps down.

Smith, a veteran of Liberal campaigns dating back to Pierre Trudeau's era, suggested Dion's decision is not solely his to make, but is a matter of "consensus" in the party. However, he suggested that rivals to Dion's leadership should keep a lid on it in the meantime. He did not name anyone but it's an open secret that deputy Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff and Toronto MP Bob Rae, top contenders for the leadership that Dion won in December 2006, have been waiting in the wings for another try.

"I think that anybody who does any pushing is not a Liberal family team member," Smith said. "That's not what we need. We want to be supportive of his situation and he'll come to his own conclusions, whatever they might be."