Into Court They Go ?

[Kip Powick]

Waiting for the Lawyers

[conehead]

"In February, an 11-year-old Muslim girl from Ottawa was asked to remove her headwear at a soccer tournament in Laval, north of Montreal, due to safety concerns. She refused and her team pulled out."

As I recall, this was done by a Muslim referee. There is no persecution involved. Rules are rules.

[Guest rattler]

The question of wearing this garb (including the Burga) also comes up when the applicant wants a driver's licence, passport or any other picture id. I wonder how that is handled?

Re the head gear itself, do Sheiks compete and if so are they made to remove their turban? Seems to me that much is being made of an item that poses no hazards. There is even a sport version http://www.thehijabshop.com/capsters/index.php

Of greater concern to me is the behaviour of another religion regarding the treatment of their children.

Jehovah's Witnesses battle B.C. over seizure of sextuplets for transfusions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

at 9:55 on April 16, 2007, EST.

VANCOUVER (CP) - The Jehovah's Witness parents of sextuplets born in Vancouver three months ago are heading to court Monday.

They're appealing the B.C. government's decision to seize some of their babies for blood transfusions, which is forbidden under their religion. When the parents first went to court, the province handed back control over the infants' medical futures.

Lawyer Shane Brady says his clients want the court to rule their constitutional rights were violated when the government authorized transfusions which the parents say "weren't medically necessary."

The six children were born to the parents on Jan. 7, but two of them died soon afterwards.

The parents' names and those of their four surviving children - two boys and two girls-are under a publication ban.

[handyman]

Muslims want the entire world to be Muslim.

[GDR]

Muslims want the entire world to be Muslim.

Everybody wants the whole world to think like themselves. Frankly, it would be a wonderful thing if everybody would just agree with me.

I' think we'll all agree that there are a minority group of Muslims that are prepared to go to despicable lengths to try and make the world a Muslin theocracy. However, if we start assuming that all Muslims are part of that minority group then in the end that just may be where they all wind up. It seems to me that wearing a hibab underneath a helmet, (which is something they've been doing all along), is not putting anyone's safety in jeopardy. The whole issue seems to me to be pretty petty at best.

Our best and maybe only defence against militant Islamists is moderate Islam. In the end love trumps hate every time which doesn't mean that there won't be short term losses such as 9/11. Trying to figure out how to make that work in practice though is a very thorny issue.

Greg

[chockalicious]

Hi Greg

As someone who has long respected your voice on here, thanks for the well put reply to the previous post.

[Mitch Cronin]

I'll second that!

[Mitch Cronin]

Ooops... Thanks Greg.

...almost said "Amen Brutha", but thought I'd better not...

[Guest rattler]

Never hear of a Jewish Cabbie refusing to take a passenger who had a grocery bag containing pork........

However it seems that a certain brand of Muslim cabbie will not transport a passenger with alcohol. ..... go figure.....

Airport hits cabbies for refusing fares

Minn. drivers face suspended license for denying travelers carrying alcohol

Updated: 57 minutes ago

MINNEAPOLIS - Taxi drivers who refuse service to travelers carrying alcohol at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport face tougher penalties despite protests from Muslim cabbies who sought a compromise for religious reasons, officials said Monday.

The Metropolitan Airports Commission said new penalties were needed to ensure customers get safe and reliable taxi service, and voted to suspend a driver’s airport taxi license for 30 days for the first offense and revoke it for two years for a second offense. The new penalties take effect May 11.

Airport officials say more than 70 percent of the cabbies at the airport are Muslim, and many of them say Islamic law forbids them from giving rides to people carrying alcohol.

Under the old rules, a driver who refused to transport someone carrying alcohol would be told to go to the back of the taxicab line. Airport officials said that since January 2002, there have been more than 4,800 instances of drivers’ refusing to take alcohol-carrying travelers.

Commissioners said the old rules didn’t prevent customers from being stranded at the curb or — as reported in a few cases — dropped off before their destination after drivers learned of their alcohol on board.

Some Somalis who testified Monday urged commissioners to reject the new penalties and find some other solution.

“We see this as a penalty against a group of Americans only for practicing their faith,” said Hassan Mohamud, an imam and an adjunct professor at William Mitchell College of Law.

The airport had proposed one pilot program that had drivers who wouldn’t transport alcohol display a different top light on their cab, but the public’s reaction was overwhelmingly negative and taxi drivers feared it would make travelers avoid taxis altogether.

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/pubs/cd/02-1/population.cfm

[handyman]

Everybody wants the whole world to think like themselves. Frankly, it would be a wonderful thing if everybody would just agree with me.

I' think we'll all agree that there are a minority group of Muslims that are prepared to go to despicable lengths to try and make the world a Muslin theocracy. However, if we start assuming that all Muslims are part of that minority group then in the end that just may be where they all wind up. It seems to me that wearing a hibab underneath a helmet, (which is something they've been doing all along), is not putting anyone's safety in jeopardy. The whole issue seems to me to be pretty petty at best.

Our best and maybe only defence against militant Islamists is moderate Islam. In the end love trumps hate every time which doesn't mean that there won't be short term losses such as 9/11. Trying to figure out how to make that work in practice though is a very thorny issue.

Greg

Greg,

I don't think people really want others to be like themselves. Diversity in culture and ideas when it comes to opinions is a fundamental part of this nation...however, freedom of speech and freedom of conduct are two very different things.

From your postings I know where your spiritial beliefs are, but others here must realise that this is a Christian founded country whether they like it or not. Our rules and laws are not based on Muslim ideals nor should they. We respect other cultures by allowing them to inttigrate in our society and build temples to worship in. We honor thier religious holidays and even join them in thier parades. But, our laws are laws that they should respect!

If I came to your house I would respect your wishes if you don't smoke and I did. As such, Muslims and other cultures should respect our Christian laws when they come to our country.

Is it a big deal wearing a headwear under a helmet...no it isn't but that is not the point! The point is there is a rule. They protest the rule because it will highlight the Muslim agenda in the press. I'm sure it's so uncomfortable wearing an article of clothing which will bunch up under a helmet they will finish the sport with a headache. But the agenda has a greater importance than a headache!

There are many minority groups which use the press to make a point. These points somehow become puplic opinion as the media tells us what to think. I wish it wasn't like that but it is.

I don't want to live in a country that must check with every group before they try to enforce a rule ensuring it doesn't offend. I'm also not willing to call our country a moderate Muslim nation just to gaurd against militant Islamists.

[GDR]

I don't think people really want others to be like themselves. Diversity in culture and ideas when it comes to opinions is a fundamental part of this nation...however, freedom of speech and freedom of conduct are two very different things.

We are talking about being accommodating enough to accept that some young girls in a sports competition be allowed to wear a head scarf under their helmets. We have to keep this in perspective.

From your postings I know where your spiritial beliefs are, but others here must realise that this is a Christian founded country whether they like it or not.  Our rules and laws are not based on Muslim ideals nor should they.  We respect other cultures by allowing them to inttigrate in our society and build temples to worship in.  We honor thier religious holidays and even join them in thier parades.  But, our laws are laws that they should respect!

We have a system of secular laws that are largely, but not completely, based on the Judeo-Christian heritage of the majority of the early immigrants here. I'm not sure what law you think is being broken by these kids. We aren't talking about Sharia law here. It is about a minor accommodation that isn't about to hurt anyone.

If I came to your house I would respect your wishes if you don't smoke and I did.  As such, Muslims and other cultures should respect our Christian laws when they come to our country.

This isn't someone's house. This is our country and their country. Let's face facts here. They have been wearing these habibs for some time with no problem. Somebody has decided that they want to make an issue of it and I'll leave it to you to figure out why. When they were told that they wouldn't be allowed to wear them they packed their bags and went home. Just which law was broken?

Is it a big deal wearing a headwear under a helmet...no it isn't but that is not the point!  The point is there is a rule.  They protest the rule because it will highlight the Muslim agenda in the press.  I'm sure it's so uncomfortable wearing an article of clothing which will bunch up under a helmet they will finish the sport with a headache.  But the agenda has a greater importance than a headache!

As I understand it this so called rule wasn't important before. Others have obviously realized that it wasn't a problem and applied the rules with common sense and courtesy. I'm just curious how you figure that they will get a headache. Have you ever noticed kids skating on an outdoor rink in the winter with ski hats under their helmets? They seem to get by just fine without getting headaches.

There are many minority groups which use the press to make a point.  These points somehow become public opinion as the media tells us what to think.  I wish it wasn't like that but it is.

They went to compete as they always had. If anybody is trying to make a point it is the officials overseeing the competition. I agree that the media has a bias but most of us can see beyond that bias. I'd like to have you point out where you have seen bias in this case anyway. It seems to be a pretty straight reporting of the facts. The coverage I saw interviewed both parties involved.

I don't want to live in a country that must check with every group before they try to enforce a rule ensuring it doesn't offend.  I'm also not willing to call our country a moderate Muslim nation just to gaurd against militant Islamists.

Nobody has to check with anybody. The whole thing just required basic common sense but that just seemed to be in very short supply. Do you really think that a few girls wearing a habib under a sports helmet makes us a Muslim nation.

You referred to the fact that I'm a Christian. Christ said that the basis of all Christian laws is love: love of God and neighbour. Those Muslim kids are my neighbours and I'm disturbed that they have been treated the way they were in my country.

[chockalicious]

Every time I hear someone say that this is a Christian country this pops into my mind:

http://valiante.plugnpay.com/scstore/graph...ers%20large.jpg

[AME]

Airport officials say more than 70 percent of the cabbies at the airport are Muslim, and many of them say Islamic law forbids them from giving rides to people carrying alcohol.

I'm pretty sure the Koran makes no mention of cab drivers at MSP?? and if they truely believed that this is forbidden would it not be prudent to choose an occupation that doesn't require them to transgress??

I believe that lying is a sin and that's why I'm not a lawyer

[DEFCON]

Rules are rules, are they not? If we think a particular rule is silly, isn't there a proper way to effect change?

GDR seems to believe that "love will conquer all". IMO that's a great concept but, aren't those "liitle" and never ending religious accomodations now producing something of a cultural backlash in the western world?

I'm certainly no expert and correct me if I'm in error however, the so called "extremist" muslims rule throughout most of the middle eastern world. With fear they have been able to force the majority (moderates) into a subjugated theocracy. Who would believe the same won't come to pass here?

[AME]

Rules are rules, are they not? If we think a particular rule is silly, isn't there a proper way to effect change?

GDR seems to believe that "love will conquer all". IMO that's a great concept but, aren't those "liitle" and never ending religious accomodations now producing something of a cultural backlash in the western world?

I'm certainly no expert and correct me if I'm in error however, the so called "extremist" muslims rule throughout most of the middle eastern world. With fear they have been able to force the majority (moderates) into a subjugated theocracy. Who would believe the same won't come to pass here?

The beauty of a democracy is that majority rules, and as there are probably twice as many muslims world wide than christians it won't be that many years and they'll be able to make the changes they desire through the vote.

[chockalicious]

The beauty of a democracy is that majority rules, and as there are probably twice as many muslims world wide than christians it won't be that many years and they'll be able to make the changes they desire through the vote.

The sky is falling!! Those pesky Muslims will have everyone in a Burqha before noon.

Breakdown of world religions

[handyman]

The beauty of a democracy is that majority rules, and as there are probably twice as many muslims world wide than christians it won't be that many years and they'll be able to make the changes they desire through the vote.

That is why we must screen the type of individuals wanting to come to Canada. Radicals should not be allowed.

[Canus Chinookus]

All I'm going to say is, when I see the multitude of different 'Christian' forms of religion out there, normal people technically mixed up with the crackpots and extremists, and yes, there are Christian extremists too, in case you were born yesterday!

KILL ALL EXTREMISTS!!!

***that was a joke peole!***

[AME]

The sky is falling!! Those pesky Muslims will have everyone in a Burqha before noon.

Breakdown of world religions

Damn, That's what I get for watching American TV, at least it's not something I'll ever have to worry about, and in the end that's all that matters

[deicer]

The sky is falling!! Those pesky Muslims will have everyone in a Burqha before noon.

Do we have to get up that early

Iceman

[GDR]

GDR seems to believe that "love will conquer all". IMO that's a great concept but, aren't those "liitle" and never ending religious accomodations now producing something of a cultural backlash in the western world?

I think this is an example of the backlash. We are a country of immigrants and we all have to take a little water in our wine. Of course if there is an issue that comes up like Sharia law, then no is the only answer. This is just, as I said, petty.

I'm certainly no expert and correct me if I'm in error however, the so called "extremist" muslims rule throughout most of the middle eastern world. With fear they have been able to force the majority (moderates) into a subjugated theocracy. Who would believe the same won't come to pass here?

It is a very real fear that it will happen here. If it is going to happen here it seems to me that it is this sort of thing that will make it more likely. If there is no accommodation on inconsequential things like this it will just make the extremist option more attractive. Aside from this however, it was still just the wrong thing to do.

Greg

[handyman]

It is a very real fear that it will happen here. If it is going to happen here it seems to me that it is this sort of thing that will make it more likely. If there is no accommodation on inconsequential things like this it will just make the extremist option more attractive. Aside from this however, it was still just the wrong thing to do.

Greg

I don't think so. A referee of a game must follow the rule book period! If a player has a n issue with a rule he can take it up with the league at another time but the game will play with the book which is as written. Make this as political as you want but rules are rules and the midst of a game is not the appropriate time to challenge a rule.

IMO, I don't want to be that tolerant, never wanted turbans in the RCMP dress code or the military. Religious symbols should not be prominently worn with any uniform. Use discretion and learn to be discreet but we have become a “look at me” society wanting the freedom to do what we want.

The correct path in my opinion is to petition the league for a rule change and the commissioner of the league to make a decision…period!

[Guest woxof]

The beauty of a democracy is that majority rules, and as there are probably twice as many muslims world wide than christians it won't be that many years and they'll be able to make the changes they desire through the vote.

Accuracy is important in these debates.

2.1 billion Christians

1.3 billion muslims

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[GDR]

I don't think so. A referee of a game must follow the rule book period! If a player has a n issue with a rule he can take it up with the league at another time but the game will play with the book which is as written. Make this as political as you want but rules are rules and the midst of a game is not the appropriate time to challenge a rule.

Here is what The National Post had to say in its editorial today.

Of hijabs and helmets

National Post

Published: Thursday, April 19, 2007

Quebec's debate about what constitutes "reasonable accommodation" for immigrants took an odd turn over the weekend, when five Muslim girls were prohibited from participating in a taekwondo competition because they sought to wear hijabs under their protective helmets, something the organizers claimed would compromise contestants' safety. This makes no sense.

We're no great fans of carving out special rules for immigrant groups. But even we can't understand why a hijab should be banned under such circumstances. Football players and other adult athletes wear bandanas under their helmets all the time. And to our knowledge, they've never been punished by the safety police.

At taekwondo competitions, participants demonstrate their skills by performing taekwondo patterns (a series of kicks and punches) and sparring with an opponent. When sparring, taekwondo competitors must wear protective gear, including a helmet secured by a chin strap.

aren't won by knocking rivals unconscious. (Hitting someone hard is actually counterproductive: It saps your energy and is a fast way to lose.) Whether worn over a hijab or not, a standard-issue helmet provides all the protection one needs.

In fact, the former dean of engineering at the University of Ottawa, Tyseer Aboulnasr, is a taekwondo champion who earned her black belt and other honours while wearing the hijab.

The hijabs worn by the five Muslim girls, neatly secured, posed no more risk than the chin straps on their helmets -- which is to say, none. We agree that society need not break important rules of general application to satisfy the demands of immigrant groups. But in this case, there was no important rule to be broken.

[handyman]

Here is what The National Post had to say in its editorial today.

Of hijabs and helmets

National Post

Published: Thursday, April 19, 2007

Quebec's debate about what constitutes "reasonable accommodation" for immigrants took an odd turn over the weekend, when five Muslim girls were prohibited from participating in a taekwondo competition because they sought to wear hijabs under their protective helmets, something the organizers claimed would compromise contestants' safety. This makes no sense.

We're no great fans of carving out special rules for immigrant groups. But even we can't understand why a hijab should be banned under such circumstances. Football players and other adult athletes wear bandanas under their helmets all the time. And to our knowledge, they've never been punished by the safety police.

At taekwondo competitions, participants demonstrate their skills by performing taekwondo patterns (a series of kicks and punches) and sparring with an opponent. When sparring, taekwondo competitors must wear protective gear, including a helmet secured by a chin strap.

aren't won by knocking rivals unconscious. (Hitting someone hard is actually counterproductive: It saps your energy and is a fast way to lose.) Whether worn over a hijab or not, a standard-issue helmet provides all the protection one needs.

In fact, the former dean of engineering at the University of Ottawa, Tyseer Aboulnasr, is a taekwondo champion who earned her black belt and other honours while wearing the hijab.

The hijabs worn by the five Muslim girls, neatly secured, posed no more risk than the chin straps on their helmets -- which is to say, none. We agree that society need not break important rules of general application to satisfy the demands of immigrant groups. But in this case, there was no important rule to be broken.

The point is not the validity of the rule but how one goes about to change it! The referee is like a policeman, they just enforce the rules not make them.