U.S. army deserter wants to stay in Canada

[J.O.]

cpdude:

I'm really interested to hear your response to neo's statement ...

Jesus Christ was tortured and executed by soldiers. They were simply following orders given by a superior who feared for law and order and the security of his country. Well, I guess if being a soldier makes it OK to kill, then it was even OK for those soldiers to kill the Son of God.

They were just following orders, and doing their duty.

[handyman]

Jesus Christ was tortured and executed by soldiers. They were simply following orders given by a superior who feared for law and order and the security of his country. Well, I guess if being a soldier makes it OK to kill, then it was even OK for those soldiers to kill the Son of God.

They were just following orders, and doing their duty.

The soldiers were following orders and thus were not committing a sin. The leaders who ordered the killing did so because of fear and knowing he was innocent did commit a sin. But lastly, if God didn't want it to happen, it would not have.

It is a difficult thing to follow orders at times. If you disobey an order, you better make sure it was an unlawful order.

That’s how I see it.

[handyman]

Back to the thread as it begun,

So I see he did apply and receive proceeds under the GI bill. If this is such a strong case for compassion, why doesn't he attain legal council and fight this case in the USA? Instead, he comes to Canada and has the entire case and all of his housing I’m sure paid for by the tax-payer. Is this our role in the world? Are we now setting precedence for more to have their legal cases heard and paid for by Canadians?

[AME]

As an agnostic, I practice the old "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"!

Isn't it "do unto others before they do unto you"

[Guest neo]

The soldiers were following orders and thus were not committing a sin. The leaders who ordered the killing did so because of fear and knowing he was innocent did commit a sin.

There's quite a bit more to it than this. Jesus Christ was perceived as a threat to law and order, and hence to the stability of the Roman Empire. According to military logic, eliminating him was the sound choice. Pontius Pilate (the Roman leader) made the smart call, and his soldiers did their duty.

And thus, if you're a Christian and you accept that killing by the military is acceptable, (as did Pontius Pilate and a good number of people since), you place yourself in the position of not only killing innocent people but perhaps killing the Son of God. After all, it has happened.

But this too misses the richness, the poignancy of Christ's legacy. For those who are willing to not just see things literally but to consider all of Christ's life, it's plain that his whole existence was a series of moral metaphors. Stating that it wouldn't have happened if God didn't want it to happen is simply washing your hands of the message. Which is: it matters not what you believe your justification to be, killing the innocent is no different than killing God himself. And you cannot wage war and not kill the innocent.

Christ showed everyone the consequences of granting the military the power of life and death. It would be a shame to willfully ignore his sacrifice.

[Guest neo]

Isn't it "do unto others before they do unto you"

Or maybe it's, you do me and I'll do you?

[handyman]

There's quite a bit more to it than this. Jesus Christ was perceived as a threat to law and order, and hence to the stability of the Roman Empire. According to military logic, eliminating him was the sound choice. Pontius Pilate (the Roman leader) made the smart call, and his soldiers did their duty.

And thus, if you're a Christian and you accept that killing by the military is acceptable, (as did Pontius Pilate and a good number of people since), you place yourself in the position of not only killing innocent people but perhaps killing the Son of God. After all, it has happened.

But this too misses the richness, the poignancy of Christ's legacy. For those who are willing to not just see things literally but to consider all of Christ's life, it's plain that his whole existence was a series of moral metaphors. Stating that it wouldn't have happened if God didn't want it to happen is simply washing your hands of the message. Which is: it matters not what you believe your justification to be, killing the innocent is no different than killing God himself. And you cannot wage war and not kill the innocent.

Christ showed everyone the consequences of granting the military the power of life and death. It would be a shame to willfully ignore his sacrifice.

Of course there was a bit more to it than this. We could write the entire script of the movie you watched? But, Christ was innocent of any and all laws of the land and that is why even Pontius Pilate had such difficulty in ordering the sentence to be carried out.

As for Gods will, to believe in the powers of God is not washing your hands of anything but understanding why or how something does happen.

and lastly, do you remember the qoutes (from the Bible) I gave you earlier Neo? "a time to kill and a time to heal", "a time for war and a time for peace"?

[Guest neo]

Of course there was a bit more to it than this. We could write the entire script of the movie you watched? But, Christ was innocent of any and all laws of the land and that is why even Pontius Pilate had such difficulty in ordering the sentence to be carried out.

Yes, there's much more to it than the simplistic explanation you gave. That's why I elaborated. And no, I didn't see the movie, I just read The Book.

Christ was indeed innocent, and regardless of Pilate's unease about condemning him, condemn him he did. He did it to keep law and order and maintain the security of Rome. The parallels to state and military affairs in more modern times is, I believe, pretty obvious.

As for Gods will, to believe in the powers of God is not washing your hands of anything but understanding why or how something does happen.

It's washing your hands of the message that Christ sacrificed himself to deliver, if you avoid seeing it by simply excusing everything as... "God's will."

and lastly, do you remember the qoutes (from the Bible) I gave you earlier Neo?  "a time to kill and a time to heal", "a time for war and a time for peace"?

I remember them very well, cpdude, and I've even heard the song. Do you recall the injuction that your God gave you? "Thou shalt not kill."

The Bible was written by human beings (with all their human frailties) and full of a good many types of human behavior. Some are glorious, and some are a base as they come. I'm speaking of fornication, adultery, sodomy; executions by beheading, stoning, crucifixion, human sacrifice... killing of all sorts.

The Bible is also full of the warnings of prophets, about how the Israelites had turned from God's path and would reap his displeasure if they didn't start following his commandments. Just in case any of them had forgotten His little discussion with Moses and the miraculous delivery of his Law, he sent Christ to remind them.

Even though the injuction against killing is so forthright and plain, Christ made it even plainer so that NO ONE could mistake what was intended: Treat others as you would have them treat you. Turn the other cheek. The meek shall inherit the earth.

I'm not a Christian but I've come to my own conclusions about killing, which is that it's clearly, ethically and logically wrong. But for Christians it's equally clear that there's no wriggle room on the matter. Forget the commentary by unknown Hebrew commentators and obscure prophets: God Himself told Christians what to do, and Christ made it even plainer. If Christians kill, and in particular if they voluntarily choose to kill, they turn from Christ in the most profound way.

It ain't me delivering that message, cpdude. Your God has given it to you.

[Mitch Cronin]

The Bible was written by human beings (with all their human frailties) and full of a good many types of human behavior. Some are glorious, and some are a base as they come. I'm speaking of fornication, adultery, sodomy; executions by beheading, stoning, crucifixion, human sacrifice... killing of all sorts.

Yep... not to mention the bits about buying and selling people!

"If thou shall buy an Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.".... "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant[...]"

Anyway neo... you'd best be cautious... else you'll be accused of agreeing with "the mitch" (whatever-the-heck that means? )

[Guest neo]

Aww Mitch... don't you remember that we were cell mates? We did time together!

Interesting quote from The Bible you provided. I guess to the list of sins of that day we'll have to add slavery; even slavery of your own children.

Do you suppose, (I'm just speaking hypothetically here) that some of the things the Hebrews talked about in The Bible, including things that they did which were legal or common practice of their day, were actually things that their God, and the Son of God, disapproved of?

Again hypothetically, do you suppose that many of the practices of those primitive shepherds in the wilderness actually have little place in our world today? That slavery, human sacrifice, perhaps even killing each other (hard as that may be to believe) are no longer acceptable forms of human conduct, and that maybe, (I'm just saying maybe) the God of Jews and Christians never wanted them in the first place?

Remember, these are just hypothetical questions for open-minded people to ponder.

Best,

neo

[Guest rattler]

The soldiers were following orders and thus were not committing a sin. The leaders who ordered the killing did so because of fear and knowing he was innocent did commit a sin. But lastly, if God didn't want it to happen, it would not have.

It is a difficult thing to follow orders at times. If you disobey an order, you better make sure it was an unlawful order.

That’s how I see it.

So since God wanted it to happen, then it was OK in your mind. Therefore why the fuss about 9/11 etc.? Should you not just sit back and accept things as they are since you believe "God wants it to happen"??? Blind faith can indeed be blind and is dangerous. If everything happens because God wants it to happen, then why would any one be doomed to go to hell, surely God would understand as it was his will in the first place that the person went bad??????

[GDR]

Hi Neo, Mitch, CC etc

I just returned from a few days away and reviewed most of this thread. I just read one interesting statement by neo.

killing the innocent is no different than killing God himself

That is a very interesting statement, and in my humble point of view, a theologically accurate one. In Matthew 25 the Bible quotes Christ as saying, (I'm paraphrasing here) that when we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, shelter the homeless etc, that we aren't just doing it for him, we are doing it TO him.

The thing about war is that in my mind there are right times to go to war and there are wrong times and unfortunately it is seldom clear cut.

Maybe one criteria would be that if it is evident that more lives will be saved by going to war than will actually be lost in the war then you might reasonably say that it is justified. The trouble is to justify a war on those grounds requires a forecasting of the future which is not an exact science. Was a man who fought in World War II risking his life for a greater cause or not?

War has such a profound affect on people. I have read stories about men who started truly enjoying the killing and others where they hated the killing but believed it to be for the greater good of humanity in the end. I had a great Uncle who was so affected by what he saw in WW I, that he drank himself to death at a young age as he couldn't live with what he had seen and/or done during the war.

Just a couple of quick thoughts.

Cheers

Greg

[handyman]

I'm not a Christian but I've come to my own conclusions about killing, which is that it's clearly, ethically and logically wrong. But for Christians it's equally clear that there's no wriggle room on the matter. Forget the commentary by unknown Hebrew commentators and obscure prophets: God Himself told Christians what to do, and Christ made it even plainer. If Christians kill, and in particular if they voluntarily choose to kill, they turn from Christ in the most profound way.

It ain't me delivering that message, cpdude. Your God has given it to you.

Absolutely not. But, trying to convince you on the meaning of a verse is like trying to convince an NRA member that gun control of some sort is a good idea. It's just not going to happen and I couldn't care less.

From a Christian to a non-Christian, it's nice to know you have such an in-depth understanding of my religion. Almost a self-made expert I guess.

[Guest neo]

Oh, gosh no, cpdude, I'm no expert on Christianity, nor on any other religion. I've examined a few to be sure, and listened carefully to what those who believe a particular religion say, but expert? Uh uh.

But it's completely unnecessary to be an expert on a religion to recognize when someone isn't faithful to its principles. It's like you, for instance, watching to see if some left-wing government followed through on its promises and obligations. You don't have to be left-wing to judge the matter, nor do you have to be left-wing to justly criticize them if they don't live up to the principles that they claim to work by. Similarly, people who aren't Christians, or Muslims, or Hindus or Buddhists can readily tell if one of those people isn't living up to his or her faith. Usually, it's painfully obvious.

[handyman]

Oh, gosh no, cpdude, I'm no expert on Christianity, nor on any other religion. I've examined a few to be sure, and listened carefully to what those who believe a particular religion say, but expert? Uh uh.

But it's completely unnecessary to be an expert on a religion to recognize when someone isn't faithful to its principles. It's like you, for instance, watching to see if some left-wing government followed through on its promises and obligations. You don't have to be left-wing to judge the matter, nor do you have to be left-wing to justly criticize them if they don't live up to the principles that they claim to work by. Similarly, people who aren't Christians, or Muslims, or Hindus or Buddhists can readily tell if one of those people isn't living up to his or her faith. Usually, it's painfully obvious.

and how so if your not familiar with the principles? Your just talking out of your ass again son.

[Guest neo]

Greg,

Thank you very kindly for weighing in with another Christian perspective. For those who wish to interpret The Bible's meanings, and who wish to be consistent about it, you've made a cogent and sensible connection between how doing good for people is the same as doing it for God; and how doing bad things to people is doing bad things to God.

My personal message to all is that it's wrong to kill, period. If everyone followed that principle, war would end immediately. Yet you bring up the perfectly valid and important point: what are you going to do when some other bad people start a war against you? Well, there's absolutely not a shadow of a doubt what Jesus Christ's example was. He didn't complain or struggle when his persecutors tortured and executed Him. So how can Christians take up arms and remain true to their God?

The answer is simple, theologically-speaking. If you're a Christian and you wish to support your country and people against a war-like aggressor, you serve in a non-combat role. There's hundreds of them in any modern military, including ones which are predominantly humanitarian. So serve with honor and distinction as a field medic, for example. You remain true to your faith, and perform a vital military function.

The killing itself will have to be done by those who have no ethical objection to it, nor any religious prohibition against it. From what I know of both those things, and regardless of the ethical principles or religion we're talking about, it would eliminate 98% of the wars, right now.

Best,

Richard

[handyman]

Greg,

Thank you very kindly for weighing in with another Christian perspective. For those who wish to interpret The Bible's meanings, and who wish to be consistent about it, you've made a cogent and sensible connection between how doing good for people is the same as doing it for God; and how doing bad things to people is doing bad things to God.

My personal message to all is that it's wrong to kill, period. If everyone followed that principle, war would end immediately. Yet you bring up the perfectly valid and important point: what are you going to do when some other bad people start a war against you? Well, there's absolutely not a shadow of a doubt what Jesus Christ's example was. He didn't complain or struggle when his persecutors tortured and executed Him. So how can Christians take up arms and remain true to their God?

The answer is simple, theologically-speaking. If you're a Christian and you wish to support your country and people against a war-like aggressor, you serve in a non-combat role. There's hundreds of them in any modern military, including ones which are predominantly humanitarian. So serve with honor and distinction as a field medic, for example. You remain true to your faith, and perform a vital military function.

The killing itself will have to be done by those who have no ethical objection to it, nor any religious prohibition against it. From what I know of both those things, and regardless of the ethical principles or religion we're talking about, it would eliminate 98% of the wars, right now.

Best,

Richard

and sometimes wars are started by name calling Neo!

sincerely...not,

your racist and bigot friend

[Guest JakeYYZ]

The Bible was written by human beings (with all their human frailties) and full of a good many types of human behavior. Some are glorious, and some are a base as they come. I'm speaking of fornication, adultery, sodomy; executions by beheading, stoning, crucifixion, human sacrifice... killing of all sorts.

Yep... not to mention the bits about buying and selling people!

"If thou shall buy an Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.".... "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant[...]"

Anyway neo... you'd best be cautious... else you'll be accused of agreeing with "the mitch" (whatever-the-heck that means? )

...I was referring to your defence of the Yanker soldier seeking refuge in Canada...I surmise you'd join a boxing club and protest when it came down to actually fighting.

How much of a goof are you, Mitchy?

...now drop, and give me 20!

[Mitch Cronin]

...I was referring to your defence of the Yanker soldier seeking refuge in Canada...I surmise you'd join a boxing club and protest when it came down to actually fighting.

How much of a goof are you, Mitchy?

...now drop, and give me 20!

I don't know if I've ever bit my tongue this hard ... but I'll leave your bait dangling.... Thanks anyway Jakey.

[GDR]

Hi neo

He didn't complain or struggle when his persecutors tortured and executed Him. So how can Christians take up arms and remain true to their God?

I think the difference is that when Jesus was being tortured and killed he was able to turn the other cheek because they were doing it to him. I can hardly turn the other cheek when it is someone else that is being tortured and killed.

The Bible also says that, "greater love has no man than that he lay down his life for his friend". That can be interpreted different ways but I do think that it does have application here. Hard as it may be I think that there is justification for fighting a war that is being fought for the freedom from tyranny, in all of it's many forms, of others.

There is something to what you say about serving in a non-combat role. I know that when I was in the air force it did occur to me that in flying an unarmed Hercules meant that I had the luxury of not having to shoot at someone. I remember consciously thinking that I was more afraid of having to shoot at someone than I was of being shot at. Of course, a lot of that had to do with being twenty something and not realizing that I was mortal.

It is a little hypocritical though to serve in a non-combat role and let others, do the soul searing work of killing. If you are going to have a war somebody has to do the dirty work. It's a tough issue.

Cheers

[handyman]

and back to the topic which started this thread,

First of all, I am not a strong supporter of the war in Iraq. But I am a very strong supporter of duty.

I believe that the Immigration and Refugee board will be pressured by a Government which didn't support the war in Iraq and the many protesters which have been very vocal in his claim. What I fear is this will be about Iraq and not the legitimacy of his refugee claim.

[Guest JakeYYZ]

There’s no question this is an orchestrated event here…..I mean he could have easily vaporized into the DeToronto underground without a trace. The poor little feller is the main event. ….I predict, he will be returned to the US and do 7 to 10 years in jail. His only hope, is that this war is declared illegal and have his record cleared….not very likely. The blame for crimes at Abu Ghraib, for example, falls upon ordinary soldiers who were trained to follow orders. Anyone who has spent more than twenty-four hours in the military knows that soldiers do not act on their own. Those who occupy, or who once sat in positions of power—Margaret Thatcher, Edward Heath, George W. Bush, Lyndon Johnson, Nixon -- the list is long—will never likely be called before a tribunal to answer for their illegal, homicidal, genocidal orders . Thatcher, Bush, and company rest easy, far from the cries of the killing fields, far from the screams of the torture chambers, and far from the responsibility of the orders they issue to ordinary men and women.

If you get the impression I’m contradicting myself…you’re right. War is hell. But, when you sign those enlistment papers, there’s no escape clause. You just hope and pray, that what you’re ordered to do, in defence of your country, is right and just,

and that history will also find it so.

[Guest rattler]

and back to the topic which started this thread,

First of all, I am not a strong supporter of the war in Iraq.  But I am a very strong supporter of duty.

I believe that the Immigration and Refugee board will be pressured by a Government which didn't support the war in Iraq and the many protesters which have been very vocal in his claim.  What I fear is this will be about Iraq and not the legitimacy of his refugee claim.

Leaving Christian values aside, I agree with you. The dude volunteered and if he is unwilling to serve then he should do his time in the US. He is, afterall 25years old and must have had some inkling that he might be required to serve in a fighting war (esp. after desert war one).Hinzman enlisted voluntarily for four years in November 2000. He was a crack infantryman with the 82nd Airborne Division based in Fort Bragg, N.C., until he deserted after his application as a conscientious objector failed.

[Wolfhunter]

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpos...b8-f92037031ab6

[Guest neo]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your reply and sorry about the delay getting back to you; Shaw seems to be having trouble keeping the network up in our remote locale.

Your comment was: "It is a little hypocritical though to serve in a non-combat role and let others, do the soul searing work of killing. If you are going to have a war somebody has to do the dirty work. It's a tough issue."

Well, as the saying goes, no one ever said being a good Christian, or simply an ethical person, is easy to do. Both paths present their travelers with difficult choices.

But is this particular choice really such a tough one? If everyone choose the Chrisitan, ethical way, there'd be no soul-searing dirty work. And if soul-searing dirty work is one's measure of honorable military service, I have no doubt that being a field medic will provide all that you need.

Is it a little hypocritical to leave the killing to others? In what way could it be? Are you betraying your principles being a non-combatant field medic? Are you betraying your country by serving that vital military role? Are you showing a lack of courage by being out in the killing zone, comforting the wounded, without so much as a peashooter in your hand?

And in the end, if one still has a nagging doubt about whether you're doing the right thing, do what everyone does in those situations: consult a Higher Authority. If you're a Christian, what did your God tell you to do? Well, he told you not to kill. If you're a non-religious person trying to live an ethical life, the logical, moral choice is equally clear: do unto others...

Whatever mote of hypocrisy might be present by avoiding killing will be more than counterbalanced by the hypocritical beam of betraying the most fundamental injunctions that Christianity and ethical behavior have.

Best wishes,

Richard