U.S. army deserter wants to stay in Canada

[Mitch Cronin]

Cpdude... I'm wondering how you can reconcile your thoughts on this topic with some comments you made in another thread a short while back...?

"Yes, great words but how about the Ten Commandments? Did you know they were written on two tablets? The first 1-5 is devoted to the worship of God and the second to the service of man"

"I am only stating the word of God and choose to follow this word.

"The Bible teaches to flee from evil and cling to the good. The teachings of God tell us what is good and what is evil. Such as, be intolerant of murder as it is wrong."

"Thou shalt not kill" ... Pretty plain.

The kid says he doesn't want to kill and you're saying "Tough luck kid, you agreed to do so, now do so!"? What would your God say to either you or the kid, with that?

Is there really something wrong with one who, when faced with the very real probability of having to kill or be killed, decides he was wrong to have put himslef in that position and want's a way out? Or is there something wrong with the line of thought that won't allow for that?

[Guest neo]

Congratulations, cpdude... you've achieved the near-impossible: You've staked out the political ground far to the right of Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, and Attila the Hun.

No small achievement, that!

[handyman]

Cpdude... I'm wondering how you can reconcile your thoughts on this topic with some comments you made in another thread a short while back...?

"Yes, great words but how about the Ten Commandments? Did you know they were written on two tablets? The first 1-5 is devoted to the worship of God and the second to the service of man"

"I am only stating the word of God and choose to follow this word.

"The Bible teaches to flee from evil and cling to the good. The teachings of God tell us what is good and what is evil. Such as, be intolerant of murder as it is wrong."

"Thou shalt not kill" ... Pretty plain.

The kid says he doesn't want to kill and you're saying "Tough luck kid, you agreed to do so, now do so!"? What would your God say to either you or the kid, with that?

Is there really something wrong with one who, when faced with the very real probability of having to kill or be killed, decides he was wrong to have put himslef in that position and want's a way out? Or is there something wrong with the line of thought that won't allow for that?

First of all, I'm a Christian not a Saint. But to non-Christians like you we must be perfect to be a Christian.

and sure he can have a way out...in the stockade!

[handyman]

Congratulations, cpdude... you've achieved the near-impossible:  You've staked out the political ground far to the right of Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, and Attila the Hun.

No small achievement, that! 

Thank you.

coming from someone like you so far to the left of centre you can't walk straight, must mean I'm slightly right of centre.

[Mitch Cronin]

I don't claim to be either perfect or a saint, but I hold the reluctance to kill in very high regard... no matter how late one come's to that decision.

Canada may be in a position to prevent his incarceration in that stockade. As a Canadian, I'd be proud of that.

[handyman]

I don't claim to be either perfect or a saint, but I hold the reluctance to kill in very high regard... no matter how late one come's to that decision.

Canada may be in a position to prevent his incarceration in that stockade. As a Canadian, I'd be proud of that.

Canada ... the nation willing to take anyone in need no matter what they have done. Problem is we then have to live with people who are unethical, corrupt, dangerous etc. etc.

[chockalicious]

Very interesting debate. I have to comed down on the side that says he should honor his committments. The article states that the soldier is 25, it is not like he did not know what U.S. military policy was about.

Neo I thought you had a good point early in the post but name calling like this...

Congratulations, cpdude... you've achieved the near-impossible: You've staked out the political ground far to the right of Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, and Attila the Hun.

really does no good and it fact overshadows your other comments.

As for ...

To take this back even further, for arguements sake, hasn't it been through the wringer that Dubya wasn't "legally" elected the first time, therefore shouldn't have been re-elected, and therefore isn't in the position to give "legal" orders????

This has been disabused so many times that to readily regurgitate it is a grasping tactic that is incredibly lame.

*editted for grammar not thought*

[deicer]

Chock

I put that in as an effort to bring some levity to what I thought would be the end of the point.....

As for CP...

I respect his opinions for what he is stating and believes, but to go down the route of refering to Neo as a non-christian, that crossed the line into losing territory to go after someone's religious beliefs.

Does he even know if Neo is a non-christian?

Iceman

[Mitch Cronin]

Ice-man, I believe that was me he was correctly calling a non-Christian...

One more thought for you Cpdude... in that other thread I mentioned, in support of your arguments there, you also said: "You are either religious or not. You are either a Christian or not. You cannot be a Non-Practicing Christian."

But now you choose to offer the answer that you're not perfect and not a saint, in order to excuse your apparent belief that the ten commandments - the words of God... the laws of God! ...don't have to apply?

So which are you? A Christian, a non-Christian, or a sometimes non-practicing Christian that you'd earlier said one could not be?

I've never quite understood what it means to be a Christian... or to hold any other "religious" beliefs for that matter... These apparent inconsistencies are repeated throughout time... Did Moses get it wrong? Am I to believe that God really said "Thou shalt not kill, most of the time"? Or, ..."except when at war"? ... or "unless you joined the army"?

Forgive me if I'm distracting too far from the topic... I recognize I'm getting into a different slant than probably anyone had intended here, but to me, any decision that this fellow made prior to his deciding he didn't want to kill or be killed, is almost meaningless in comparison. That decision was right and primal and worth more than oil and money and presidents and armies and the belief in ancient tablets. It should absolutely be his right, and I believe it's such a good decision, that a decent people... a people who value morality, decency and peace on Earth, should reward it, not punish it.

Cheers,

Mitch

[handyman]

Ice-man, I believe that was me he was correctly calling a non-Christian...

One more thought for you Cpdude... in that other thread I mentioned, in support of your arguments there, you also said: "You are either religious or not. You are either a Christian or not. You cannot be a Non-Practicing Christian."

But now you choose to offer the answer that you're not perfect and not a saint, in order to excuse your apparent belief that the ten commandments - the words of God... the laws of God! ...don't have to apply?

So which are you? A Christian, a non-Christian, or a sometimes non-practicing Christian that you'd earlier said one could not be?

I've never quite understood what it means to be a Christian... or to hold any other "religious" beliefs for that matter... These apparent inconsistencies are repeated throughout time... Did Moses get it wrong? Am I to believe that God really said "Thou shalt not kill, most of the time"? Or, ..."except when at war"? ... or "unless you joined the army"?

Forgive me if I'm distracting too far from the topic... I recognize I'm getting into a different slant than probably anyone had intended here, but to me, any decision that this fellow made prior to his deciding he didn't want to kill or be killed, is almost meaningless in comparison. That decision was right and primal and worth more than oil and money and presidents and armies and the belief in ancient tablets. It should absolutely be his right, and I believe it's such a good decision, that a decent people... a people who value morality, decency and peace on Earth, should reward it, not punish it.

Cheers,

Mitch

Mitch,

I assumed you are a non-Christian after you made the statement "What would your God say..." If you were a Christian then he would be your God too. If I am incorrect in this assumption I am very sorry.

The Bible is like Medical School. If you only read one page or go to school for one day you can't fully comprehend the complete meaning of what is taught. You actually become dangerously naive and begin to use text out of context. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

"Thou shall not kill" is a commandment not to murder. When a soldier in war shoots his enemy under the command of the Government, without personal hatred, he is not committing murder. Instead he is simply being obedient to the purpose for which he is fighting. The Bible says “there is a time for war and a time for peace". How can you have war without death? The Bible also states "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities".

So the Bible does cover all of these subjects and more. A little more time in class and you would understand this.

[Guest neo]

Must be an interesting class. It can twist a simple statement such as "Thou shalt not kill..." into anything cpdude wants. The next thing you know he'll be telling us that the commandment not to covet thy neighbour's ass is a prohibition on lusting after your neighbour's butt.

Religious fundamentalists, be they Christian, Moslem or otherwise astonish me. They insist that you must read the Bible, Koran or what have you literally, that you must take the whole of what's said as God's word. Then as soon as something comes along that doesn't quite fit in with what they want, it's back to some bizarre interpretation that let's them do as they please.

You're an embarrassment to the U.S. Navy, cpdude, and you're an embarrassment to Christianity.

neo

[Guest JakeYYZ]

Done any service time Neo?

[Guest neo]

chockalicious,

Yes, my point was well made, but was what I stated about cpdude "name-calling"? Perhaps. Accurate name-calling, yes, but your point is valid.

Have a great day.

neo

[Arctic Ace]

When your a soldier you follow orders. You can't understand that because you have never been a soldier. You may not have what it takes to be a soldier and all the more reason why you fail to understand what's wrong here.

So what it takes to be a soldier is the ability to blindly follow orders. I'd never make it. Check your mind at the door and become a mindless puppy.

Imagine this - A rogue government somehow makes its way into power and decides no-one in Canada shall own property. The order is sent out to the army to evict everyone from their homes and shoot on sight anyone who resists. I sure hope the majority of soldiers have minds of their own and the ability to decipher right from wrong and act accordingly.

Just how far do you take the "I follow orders without question crap". Its nearly 2005 and time to grow up GI Joe.

I'd say the Bush administration is about as close to a rogue government as we've experienced in democracy.

[Guest neo]

What does it matter whether I have or haven't, Jake? I can tell when someone dishonors a noble service, be it the military, the police or the Salvation Army.

Honor and dishonor; lies and truth; these are things anyone can recognize regardless of one's background. You don't have to be a member of the Klu Klux Klan to be able to recognize racist comments, for instance. Neither do you have to be a Christian to recognize when someone twists its beliefs for their own purposes.

You were more fun in the other thread!

neo

[handyman]

Must be an interesting class. It can twist a simple statement such as "Thou shalt not kill..." into anything cpdude wants. The next thing you know he'll be telling us that the commandment not to covet thy neighbour's ass is a prohibition on lusting after your neighbour's butt.

Religious fundamentalists, be they Christian, Moslem or otherwise astonish me. They insist that you must read the Bible, Koran or what have you literally, that you must take the whole of what's said as God's word. Then as soon as something comes along that doesn't quite fit in with what they want, it's back to some bizarre interpretation that let's them do as they please.

You're an embarrassment to the U.S. Navy, cpdude, and you're an embarrassment to Christianity.

neo

coming from a non-military and non-Christian person like you...it means nothing son!

[handyman]

What does it matter whether I have or haven't, Jake? I can tell when someone dishonors a noble service, be it the military, the police or the Salvation Army.

Honor and dishonor; lies and truth; these are things anyone can recognize regardless of one's background. You don't have to be a member of the Klu Klux Klan to be able to recognize racist comments, for instance. Neither do you have to be a Christian to recognize when someone twists its beliefs for their own purposes.

You were more fun in the other thread!

neo

How do you know if it is twisted if you don't understand what it is in the first place son!

[Mitch Cronin]

Read my first sentence again there please Cpdude... I'm not a Christian, and have never been to any kind of bible school.

So if God meant "Thou shalt not murder, and by the way, killing during war is not murder", why would he have said "Thou shalt not kill"? That would seem to me to be a rather pertinent distinction... worth mentioning.

It's amazing to me how some of you are so adept at supporting almost any argument with what's contained in those writings... even our most horrible and destructive behaviour can evidently be excused by some kind of "the bible says"...

Earlier you said something like, "hate the sin, but love the sinner"... Now it's ok to kill the sinner (even if you don't agree that he's a sinner), just because your government tells you to? So you love him while you kill him?

If your reference to time in class was intended as a dig at my all too evident lack of formal education, I freely admit it. ...and I sincerely regret it. But some of what I've learned in the school of life has led me to the conclusion that what really matters is often not learned with any amount of formal education.

[Guest JakeYYZ]

Neo, (you have no idea how much this PAINS me!!!) Sorry! A thousand pardons….. I didn’t read the thread through………

I auto-assumed you were in agreement with the Mitchguy……(yous two guys do any time…together?..don’t answer that!)……..

What’s with the KKK stuff? Everyone knows the first two KK’s are silent.

[AME]

For what it's worth, I respect the guys decision not to kill or be killed, that is his right to make that call, however, it should not come without consequences, he made the choice to join up, and now he should have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for his beliefs and pay the price, not high tail it across the nearest border and claim refugee status, which in my opinion should only be used to free people from oppression and not their own bad choices.

[Guest neo]

Jake, it's simple: honor your commitments. If for some reason you can't, then do the next most honorable thing, even though that may be hard on you. Deserting under these circumstances is not the way to go. That's just my opinion.

neo

[Guest neo]

And Moses went up onto the Mount. God, being in a good mood that day, decided to send him home with some sound advice carved right into stone: Thou Shalt Not Kill. It's the literal word of God, according to Jews and Christians. But (and I've checked the Bible on this) there was no footnote on those tablets stating: (* Except that you can kill people when someone in authority tells you to.)

God, realizing that as a species we're a little slow on the uptake, felt it necessary to visit earth and emphasize the point. In the form of Christ, he stated, "If anyone strike you on the cheek, turn to him the other." And for those who were really thick, he explained that, "The meek shall inherit the earth." It's almost as if God knew that there would be people so arrogant that they would deny his straightforward commandment and claim to have a better interpretation. He made it blindingly clear so that there could be no wiggle room whatsoever, being as how killing people is such an important matter and all.

In the context of this discussion, the remarkable thing is that there's plenty of non-Christians to fill military combat roles. Christians who wish to fulfill their duty to their country can choose any number of non-combat positions, be it as a medic, ambulance driver, or what have you. But those Christians who enter the military and choose to kill willfully turn from Christ in the most profound way. God's word delivered through Moses and his own Son leave not the slightest doubt about that. Unless, in their arrogance, they really wish to make a mockery of that which they profess to worship.

neo

[Mitch Cronin]

Jake, it's simple: honor your commitments. If for some reason you can't, then do the next most honorable thing, even though that may be hard on you. Deserting under these circumstances is not the way to go. That's just my opinion.

neo

I haven't got any idea what Jeremy Hinzman is feeling, but what if his story was something like:

He joined the US Army with all good intentions of "serving his country"... While training he learns of all kinds of atrocities being committed by the US in Iraq... Further, he learns that all the reasons the Bush administration had claimed made their invasion the right thing to do, were all invented. They lied! His "Commander in Chief" lied! There were no WMD, there is no connection to al Qaida... There is no truth whatsoever in the words "Operation Iraqi Freedom"... Now he's come to the conclusion the "right" side in this bloody conflict is, in his mind, the other side! His army is the aggressor, the invader, the one in the wrong!

Being a man of good concience, and having seen the willingness of his superiors to lie about the reasons, and then further to lie about what's been happening (as he's heard first hand accounts of horrible events), he decides he want no part of any of that and deserts.

IF ... ya hear me? : IF that were the case, would any of you who say no to him now change your mind?

[handyman]

Read my first sentence again there please Cpdude...  I'm not a Christian, and have never been to any kind of bible school.

So if God meant "Thou shalt not murder, and by the way, killing during war is not murder", why would he have said "Thou shalt not kill"? That would seem to me to be a rather pertinent distinction... worth mentioning.

It's amazing to me how some of you are so adept at supporting almost any argument with what's contained in those writings... even our most horrible and destructive behaviour can evidently be excused by some kind of "the bible says"...

Earlier you said something like, "hate the sin, but love the sinner"... Now it's ok to kill the sinner (even if you don't agree that he's a sinner), just because your government tells you to? So you love him while you kill him? 

If your reference to time in class was intended as a dig at my all too evident lack of formal education, I freely admit it. ...and I sincerely regret it. But some of what I've learned in the school of life has led me to the conclusion that what really matters is often not learned with any amount of formal education.

I read your first sentence I am now very sorry for I may have accused you as being a Christian, I hope it happens again.

As I said before, God said many things and not just the 10 commandments.

Just for the record, the time in class was not a dig into your formal education for which I have no knowledge of but a comment of how little time in bible class you have. I hope in time you rectify this.

Have a nice day.

[Wolfhunter]

Hi neo, from racism to theology; we’re covering a lot of ground. I have heard biblical scholars (on TV mind you) distinguish between killing and murdering. The admonition “thou shall not kill” could more appropriately read, “though shall not murder”. They say that position is reinforced by the Greek texts; but then, I don’t read Greek. The idea being that there is a gulf between murder and killing, in some circumstances killing is necessary and I agree, albeit reluctantly, with that position … let’s defer to your dictionary this time. Too narrow a definition fails to cover the ground required. If I were to define peace simply as the absence of war, I’m sure you would disagree.

Perhaps some quotes taken literally still don’t convey the biblical intent. For example, “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is not (I think) an invitation and justification to seek and take revenge. Rather, it is a limitation placed on the LAW to ensure that heads are not demanded in exchange for a tooth.

As for the non-combat trades you mentioned they regularly find themselves in the thick of things. They are issued personnel weapons and trained to use them for a reason.