Guest Rob Assaf Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 We taxied out for deptarture the other day from CLE with a couple of ladybugs on the windscreens, one on the front and one on the side windscreen. As I pushed up the power for TO, I thought, bye bye to you two. Would you believe those two ladybugs not only stayed on the front AND side windscreens but actually managed to move their feet and walk around a small bit! They were with us till after flap retract at 1000 agl and then as we accelerated, the side window ladybug finally blew off at 130 knots and the front windscreen ladybug hung on till 140 knots. Now the next day as I was doing this same flight from CLE I noticed that the leading edges of the wings were covered in ladybugs. The question now is, knowing that the shear speed of a ladybug is between 130 and 140 knots, well above rotation speed, do ladybugs constitute a contamitant? And if they do, what do I ask to get sprayed with? Do I have to use a two step method? First an application of 100% RAID to remove them, followed by a second spray of OFF to keep the wing clear? And what are the holdover times of those two products? I tell you, this flying is getting more complicated by the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I have always wondered about other contaminates both on the wing and on the leading edge ie. dust,bird droppings after a lengthy stay in the hangar,accumulation of bugs on the leading edge.Did Transport Canada study these items in their Clean Wing study? I am always amazed at the time and money wasted when somebody sees 3-4 sq.ft of light frost or a trace of rime on a wing 150 across and off to the deice bay we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Hey st27: Keep being amazed but what ever you do, keep going to the deice bay because finding out there is a problem when you rotate is a little late. Let's believe the performance publications in the flight manuals. In my humble 30+ years in the airline business, my experience has seen them prove to be correct on a number of occasions. More than one captain has experienced the +10 pucker factor then he pulled the control column back and nothing happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky High Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 I suggest further testing be needed to confirm that those particular lady bugs were not invovled in some covert operation involving a new type of foot glue. (just how do they stick to glass surfaces?) Who knows.. The ladybug species as a whole might have decided to save that hitching a ride is the best way to migrate. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 From practical observation, is it the 2 square feet of condensation over the landing gear mounts that causes a performance degradation, or is it the 15 feet of gap seal on the leading edge poking up with the 3/4 inch lumps of grease and dirt that are sticking to the spoiler panels, and speaking of spoiler panels, the cracked paint that sticks up 1/2 an inch across the wing span??? Having brought that up, Rob has a good point. By no means is a spray not called for when the wing is contaminated, but in all practicality, to much spraying is done for the wrong reasons. And to answer Rob's question, it is more environmentally friendly to pre-spray with Pam or other vegetable oil the night before to prevent the Ladybugs from sticking in the first place, otherwise it would cost too much to have the leading edges covered in Teflon to prevent a ladybug build-up. (Wink, Wink!) Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Rob, You could have had them off the glass much sooner if you had them turn downwind, that is head of the bug pointing aft. According to my research their little wings would have extented, much like a small drag chute, and they would have been gone at 107kts and 112 kts repectively and you would not have even noticed the slight rolling tendency as you surged through 400 ft. Any accumulation of these bugs in excess of 14 per sq meter can have devastating effects during a normal takeoff. Should you notice any external area of your machine covered outside of these limitations you would be best to abort your mission and seek professional cleaning. PS..most pilots carry a flshlight in their brain-bag.. I carried a can of RAID... Fly Safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ABC-S Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Well said. Better safe than sorry. You don't want to be a test pilot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Yes, bugs (live or smushed) on the leading edge cause a significant degradation in wing performance as does a misplaced gap seal etc. The F-28 actually has a max limit as too the amount of bug material that can be on the leading edge (very little). With such a contaminated wing the pilots of most high performance ac will notice very little if any impact on performance until something else goes wrong such as a power loss on one of the engines. At this time your wing shape or airfoil is different than that "certified" and the posted V speeds are no longer applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest niko Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 may be from a terrorist group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mtc. Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Has no one considered the possibility of increased lift when these little ladies spread their mighty wings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Hi Deicer... I think when you see things like 15 ft of gap seal sticking out, or cracked paint sticking up 1/2 an inch across an entire span, it would be a good idea to report it to someone in maintenance. Or failing that, or if that opportunity is past, maybe the flight crew... and they could write it up if they feel it warrants correction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vm to1500 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 It is just under the numbers for the new integrated winglets. It would have been a huge cost savings. A real tough sell on the STC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 The "lady"bug is known to entymologysts (sp?) as the tyrannosaurus rex of the bug kingdom. They eat anything they can sink their lady-like teeth into. Other bugs fear them. Maybe these two were just hanging on figuring out how to get the soft and chewy bits inside the cockpit window past their tiny little lady-like gullets! If I were you Rob, I'd be afraid...very afraid. They've got your number... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mtc. Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Huh, had a girlfriend like that once !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Check. Likewise. Still do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Hi Mitch We call it in on a regular basis, as well as discussing it with the flt ops group. As always Safety is the number on concern with cost effectiveness being used to achieve it. Have you seen this years presentations on how we do it? Come by the bubble some time and we'll talk!!! Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 The Asian lady beetle (Harmonia axyridis) was introduced in the early 70's and again in the 80's by the USDA Agricultural research scientists as a biological control agent for pear psylla and other soft bodied insects. It is a "heartier" version of the little bugs we all saw as a kid. They have few natural enemies except aircraft and humans and these "Scientists" with all their knowlege, forgot that it takes up to 10 years for these insect population to become established. Look forward to more of these little bugs,not much can get rid of them. The Boeing co. is doing research with respect to insect contamination and results are expected by the spring of 2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Thanks Deice, that was the point I was trying to make,too much unnecessary deicing.As environmental conditions change hourly,so should deicing solutions.Something as simple as a leafblower or broom or even a light spray of fluid on a spray at the gate could save thousands of dollars and wasted time/fuel/missed connections.Just because there is a little pile of snow/ice in a localized area does not mean we should waste $2-3000 and drench the whole a/c with Type1 fluid.IMO the Gtaa has created a huge operational beauracracy and cost structure that only makes it more difficult for airlines to operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mtc. Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Oh Oh !!!!!!!! Is that where she ended up !!! Is what that sleep with me fly for free thing that kept her around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 The situation you describe is as serious from the "safety of flight point of view" as later reporting or standing by while an ac departs with missing tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 What do you "call in"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Any descrepancies with what we observe on the top of the wing that we observe while we perform our duties. That could mean anything from dirt, to cracked fibreglass on spoiler panels, to leaks, etc. We call it in to the Mtc coordinator, and what they do with it after that is beyond our control. Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Thanks for the info. Defcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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