I'm waiting

[Kip Powick]

I see AC made the papers again today...no big deal..but I'm waiting to see what kind of a spin LANCASTER puts on it. :)

[Maverick]

Don't keep us waiting Kip, post a link so the spinning may begin!

[Guest The Clumsy Lover]

Or perhaps something more Lancasterish such as "Air Canada destabilizes the Industry"

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031007/RAIRCANADA07//?query=air+canada

[Guest lancaster]

If AC vacations is spending more on buying seats from AC, and if the mothercorp is truly interested in making a profit from all departments, then why doesn't AC vacations purchase capacity from WJ as well? Perhaps the monitors of the restructuring are not doing their jobs......that is perhaps why the federal government is hiring consultants to oversee the monitors.......as a matter of fact......did I not say 10 days or so ago, that AC might not be playing in the investors best interests? Just another money losing venture to destabilize the markets as it appears to be the norm at AC. When do the profits start? How much damage is AC going to be allowed to inflict by Judge Farley before AC crumbles and fails to emerge from bankruptcy protection. When will Farley put a stop to this nonsense? Comments

[pictues]

If you read the Article in FULL you would have read that AC Vacations is profitable. Also their prices are higher then Transats and they still make a profit. They are NOT losing money to provide the extra flights. Sorry Lancaster but you are an idiot if you don't read the wwhole article, and not just the parts you want to. Also said their sales were the highest in their history.

[Gumbi]

From the Globe article...

"And he said the well-publicized details of a recent agreement in which Transat A.T. Inc. of Montreal bought 80,000 flights from WestJet Airlines Ltd. proves that Air Canada Vacations isn't getting a subsidized rate."

80000 flights???? for two years?

that's 10.59 flights a day, seven days a week, all year long, for two years!!!

Get real! Don't believe everything you read...

[Jaydee]

I'm sure it meant " flights " .....as in individual passenger trips...or as we know it..." seats "

[Guest Terrier]

Fully agree with your take on this.

[dagger]

At the end of the article it is also admitted that Air Canada Vacations is still a small player. You have to watch out when you see someone talk about growth rate. I am sure Jetsgo is growing a lot faster in the sun holiday market. When you start from a very small base, percentage increases always sound good but aren't as impressive in the total picture.

You also have to ask whether this is just whining from a competitor who had counted on soaking the public this year. All my travel industry sources say demand is very strong, especially here in Central Canada. A lot of people deferred travel the past few years, and then with SARS they were reluctant to stray very far. Now, everyone and his uncle wants to go to a beach this winter.

As for ACV's balance sheet, it isn't under CCAA protection, so that pretty well says it all. It's paying its bills, paying AC what sounds like a full price for its lift. And if it can make money and fill AC's aircraft, then what you are seeing is the marketplace working as it should. You're also seeing that a lot of people, for whatever reason, what to fly Air Canada.

[Gumbi]

[Kip Powick]

Nothing spectacular....just some lawyers data

http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1065478211491&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

[CanadaEH]

I'm not sure where that number came from.

I know that Transat has the ability to sell seats on Westjet flights. So if someone from Prince George wants to fly to Los Cabos (departing from YVR) Transat has the ability to sell a seat on the connecting flight YXS - YVR on Westjet. This is not just limited to charter flights operating only on Westjets behalf, this also includes Air Transat flights to anywhere they fly.

[Guest lancaster]

Nice try dagger. If your statement of "You're also seeing that a lot of people, for whatever reason, want to fly Air Canada" is in fact valid, then we have some pretty naive people on your carrier. Who in their right mind, would risk booking on Air Canada full well knowing they may jeopardize their vacation? I know, as I walk by Air Canada check in counters that people are still lined up. They are lined up using their Aero Plan points, and have been for quite some time now. One thing that must be dealt directly and bluntly with when Air Canada does not emerge and fails, is that each traveller who currently has a ticket on Air Canada for travel, is not entitled to go whining to the feds for protection and repayment of their purchased ticket. They know full well that AC could fail at any moment, and nobody is responsible for reimburseing them when that happens. As well as for AC vacations being able to charge more that Transat or WestJet for a vacation, is preposterous! Show me one logical person that would say to Him/Her self, "gee whiz, I think I'll pay more for my Air Canada vacation than the Air Transat Vacation, because, I full well know that Air Canada may not be able to fullfill their obligation to me and may fail and I'll be out more money than if I would have booked a cheaper vacation with Air Transat, even though its at the same resort, departing on the same day, from the same city!" You have now convinced me you are not speaking logically, and the stress is beginning to change the tones of your posts, to the point of defensiveness. You cover has been blown Dagger!

[dagger]

First you say all those people lined up at AC counters are Aeroplan customers on freebies - yes, you interviewed everyone, that's all you do all day. Then you say all of those people with paid tickets shouldn't expect the government to give them a refund.

Which is it Lancaster, are they freebies or paying customers? Can't be both. See, you're trapped.

I blew "my cover"?

You seem to have blown your brains out. Nothing much at all to support your argument. Not facts, anyway.

I love it, your arguments are so easy to puncture.

[Guest lancaster]

Some are paying, most are riding on points. One only has to check the continual depletion of Aeroplan banked points in the system to realize, people are shedding their points for fear of losing them. I honestly don't think you could handle the results well if in fact a survey of travellers was in fact conducted.

[dagger]

That's too funny. You're outdoing yourself. The arrow is moving into the red zone on your stupid meter.

I don't doubt people burn off more points, but since Aeroplan only has a small portion of capacity on AC flights, who are all those other people? Munchkins?

[Guest lupin]

I read somewhere that aeroplan can only get roughly 10% of the seats on any flight.That makes the system good for AC,they will never have an airplane full of aeroplan custumers.

No company would expose itself to such a threat,it makes no business sense.The points system is there to get some revenue out of the empty seats every airline has.Its not there to fill the airplanes at a loss.

[Don Hudson]

Lancaster;

I just dropped in after some time away, (except for the post to Mitch) and am just picking up on your commentary here. The question's already likely been addressed, but do you fly for Westjet?...

Thanks,

Don

[Guest lancaster]

No. My interests in aviation lie purely in making organizations successful through the consultation process. Chopping/Hacking/Severing dead weight wherever it lies in an organziation is what I specialize in. A "butcher" if you will. Not.....popular?.......No.......necessary.......yes.......Unsympathetic.......yes........Required to be that way.........yes. That's what makes successful organizations profitable and its employees wealthy, productive and most of all...leaders in the industry. Just a big fan of the leadership and the way WJ does business. It is teaching the rest of Canada how to run an airline and make money doing it.

[Guest lancaster]

No.....I'm in the consulting business. Specialize in turnarounds. Hacking/chopping/severing dead weight and reorganization. Does it affect people........sometimes..........unsympathetic.......have to be..........cannibalize.......usually when things are so messed up tact won't work. Huge WJ supporter in that they are teaching the aviation industry how to run an airline. Hands off approach, the people run the airline. The management simply gives them the tools and resources to perform. That's what makes money. If you don't pull your weight at WJ, the employees will let you know. It works quite well. Never see any prospects of working for WJ in the consulting aspect as they are doing everything right. AC......well, lets just say, not many of you would be happy if I show up.

[Don Hudson]

Thanks for the candid response.

I am not ambivalent about the actions you must take in the execution of your duties and realize that it takes an especially hardened approach at times, an approach which many employees these days are, through no fault of their own, unfortunately familiar.

Seeing people as dead weight requiring unsympathetic hacking, chopping or severing to accomplish turn-arounds is not the way I would see employees, but to each his own utilitarian methodologies. Perhaps the ends, temporarily anyway, renders the means (necessarily) invisible in an instrumentally-driven corporatist society.

It has to be granted and observed that Air Canada has a sixty-five year history of survival..sometimes barely and sometimes well, but intact, weathering almost every crisis and event the industry can throw at an airline.

Westjet is an admirable, well-run organization which is re-defining travel by air. It is "locally" successful and shows signs of continuing that success. I say, "shows signs" because while a seven-year history in this business is something to take note of, it is not an especially long time and Westjet has much to experience and otherwise weather yet. Perhaps its formula will survive, perhaps not. Neither you, nor anyone can tell. Although the hypemeisters may think otherwise, I have said many times here and elsewhere, aviation is not a business to crow in, but to take with some soberness.

I know Wj runs a fine business model but at the same time, AC is no dinosaur, marking time about to be swallowed by history. The odds and circumstances greatly favour AC's survival (but yes, who's got a crystal ball?) Like any healthy organization ("healthy" is a very relative term in this industry!), AC is evolving and because it is so huge, it is taking time to change culture, ways of doing things and so on.

It is easy (and clearly entertaining) to tear large chunks out of such endeavours because faltering steps sometimes occur. After all, such an approach has made AC successful for most of its corporate life. What is far more difficult is tearing down and rebuilding while carrying on business, but AC is doing that.

I realize that there's a clear agenda in your approach to Air Canada vice Westjet, and I do not intend to convince otherwise, but only observe that the line between a jingoistic approach and an appreciative one marks where rhetoric begins and objectivity ends.

Lets see where we are at the end of say, 2005, when much of the industry's problems will have subsided. The competition's good and I hope we focus on our product and our service. We'll see what AC looks like in about two years from now. Better still, we'll see what the new stock price and profit numbers will be by then. It'll be one of two outcomes. You're fond of observing one, but I would keep my eye on the other...just in case.

[Don Hudson]

Thanks for the candid response.

I am not ambivalent about the actions you must take in the execution of your duties and realize that it takes an especially hardened approach at times, an approach which many employees these days

are, through no fault of their own, unfortunately familiar.

Seeing people as dead weight requiring unsympathetic hacking, chopping or severing to accomplish turn-arounds is not the way I would see employees, but to each his own utilitarian methodologies.

Perhaps the ends, temporarily anyway, renders the means (necessarily) invisible in an instrumentally-driven corporatist society.

It has to be granted and observed that Air Canada has a sixty-five year history of survival..sometimes barely and sometimes well, but intact, weathering almost every crisis and event the industry

can throw at an airline.

Westjet is an admirable, well-run organization which is re-defining travel by air. It is "locally" successful and shows signs of continuing that success. I say, "shows signs" because while a

seven-year history in this business is something to take note of, it is not an especially long time and Westjet has much to experience and otherwise weather yet. Perhaps its formula will survive,

perhaps not. Neither you, nor anyone can tell. Although the hypemeisters may think otherwise, I have said many times here and elsewhere, aviation is not a business to crow in, but to take with some

soberness.

I know Wj runs a fine business model but at the same time, AC is no dinosaur, marking time about to be swallowed by history. The odds and circumstances greatly favour AC's survival (but yes, who's

got a crystal ball?) Like any healthy organization ("healthy" is a very relative term in this industry!), AC is evolving and because it is so huge, it is taking time to change culture, ways of doing

things and so on.

It is easy (and clearly entertaining) to tear large chunks out of such endeavours because faltering steps sometimes occur. What is far more difficult is tearing down and rebuilding while carrying on

business, but AC is doing that.

I realize that there's a clear agenda in your approach to Air Canada vice Westjet, and I do not intend to convince otherwise, but only observe that the line between a jingoistic approach and an

appreciative one marks where rhetoric begins and objectivity ends.

Lets see where we are at the end of say, 2005, when much of the industry's problems will have subsided. The competition's good and I hope we focus on our product and our service. We'll see what AC

looks like in about two years from now. Better still, we'll see what the new stock price and profit numbers will be by then. It'll be one of two outcomes. You're fond of observing one, but I would

keep my eye on the other...just in case.

[Don Hudson]

Thanks for the candid response.

I am not ambivalent about the actions you must take in the execution of your duties and realize that it takes an especially hardened approach at times, an approach which many employees these days are, through no fault of their own, unfortunately familiar.

Seeing people as dead weight requiring unsympathetic hacking, chopping or severing to accomplish turn-arounds is not the way I would see employees, but to each his own utilitarian methodologies. Perhaps the ends, temporarily anyway, renders the means (necessarily) invisible in an instrumentally-driven corporatist society.

It has to be granted and observed that Air Canada has a sixty-five year history of survival..sometimes barely and sometimes well, but intact, weathering almost every crisis and event the industry can throw at an airline.

Westjet is an admirable, well-run organization which is re-defining travel by air. It is "locally" successful and shows signs of continuing that success. I say, "shows signs" because while a seven-year history in this business is something to take note of, it is not an especially long time and Westjet has much to experience and otherwise weather yet. Perhaps its formula will survive, perhaps not. Neither you, nor anyone can tell. Although the hypemeisters may think otherwise, I have said many times here and elsewhere, aviation is not a business to crow in, but to take with some soberness.

I know Wj runs a fine business model but at the same time, AC is no dinosaur, marking time about to be swallowed by history. The odds and circumstances greatly favour AC's survival (but yes, who's got a crystal ball?) Like any healthy organization ("healthy" is a very relative term in this industry!), AC is evolving and because it is so huge, it is taking time to change culture, ways of doing things and so on.

It is easy (and clearly entertaining) to tear large chunks out of such endeavours because faltering steps sometimes occur. What is far more difficult is tearing down and rebuilding while carrying on business, but AC is doing that.

I realize that there's a clear agenda in your approach to Air Canada vice Westjet, and I do not intend to convince otherwise, but only observe that the line between a jingoistic approach and an appreciative one marks where rhetoric begins and objectivity ends.

Lets see where we are at the end of say, 2005, when much of the industry's problems will have subsided. The competition's good and I hope we focus on our product and our service. We'll see what AC looks like in about two years from now. Better still, we'll see what the new stock price and profit numbers will be by then. It'll be one of two outcomes. You're fond of observing one, but I would keep my eye on the other...just in case.

[Guest AME]

The one thing I discovered in the last few days is that AC and WJ are both so full of themselves it makes me sick.

Lancaster, you and the likes of Upperdeck should get together and see how far you can pee.

I F@#$%^& quit

Brett

[Guest ECB]

"It has to be granted and observed that Air Canada has a sixty-five year history of survival..sometimes barely and sometimes well, but intact, weathering almost every crisis and event the industry can throw at an airline."

Don, I agree with the bulk of your post with an exception to the above. I wouldn't take too much comfort in the 65 year thing. As a Crown Corp. the company was under certain obligations, ie: YUL HQ, YWG Mtc etc... but it was also operating in a protected envirnment for most of it.

The true measure is from the time it was sold by the govt. That's only about 10 years older then WestJet. It would be similar to someone from CAAC or Aeroflot thinking they had held the comptition at bay for 70 years when it was their taxpayers and regulators who really held off the comptition.

That said, they have survived since 87 so we'll have to see what the future brings.

BTW, that business plan that WestJet uses has been profitable for 31 years at Southwest, all under intense unprotected competition.