Air Canada pilot strike vote open.

[Malcolm]

35 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

 

If they lay off employees it would take months.  Not kidding here.  To get back up and running.  Employees will disappear. Spirit made this mistake in 2011.  It almost ended the company.

I wonder why no one is consifering the role  Porter could play if AC goes on strike?

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[Turbofan]

I think WestJet and Porter are salivating.

Both pay substantially more to their pilots.  I’m sure it is not lost on them that as AC tries to keep a competitive advantage on pilot wages, they get to steal AC revenue.

[mrlupin]

46 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

All because AC doesn’t want to give back pilots their pre bankruptcy wages and working conditions.  Hugely profitable and they are just going to throw shareholders under the bus?

As far fetched as that seems.  Knowing AC you might be right.

But I’m going with fear mongering instead.

If they lay off employees it would take months.  Not kidding here.  To get back up and running.  Employees will disappear. Spirit made this mistake in 2011.  It almost ended the company.

An good point, many employees are unlikely to come back if a lay off occurs. It will be fascinating to see what the impact will be if things get to that point.

For certain employee groups, the shortage still hasn't been resolved. While unemployment is ticking higher in Canada, many professionals are still missing.

[Turbofan]

22 minutes ago, mrlupin said:

An good point, many employees are unlikely to come back if a lay off occurs. It will be fascinating to see what the impact will be if things get to that point.

For certain employee groups, the shortage still hasn't been resolved. While unemployment is ticking higher in Canada, many professionals are still missing.

Even if the employee wants to come back.  When you lay them off and the prospect of EI at 50% sets in?  Many simply don’t have a choice.

In the Spirit case most of the FA’s did actually come back.  The problem was not right away as they had committed elsewhere.

Add to that it would be reminiscent of AC throwing everyone off of CEWS during the pandemic.  Totally unnecessary.  

This is a hot button issue with raw nerves to this day.  That decision is going to haunt management for a long time.  They do it a second time?

[mrlupin]

With an industry wide AME shortage, Porter hiring in Ottawa, L3 hiring in Ottawa, Airbus and Bombardier hiring in YUL, I am curious to see how they will play their hand.

Interesting times,

Watching the show

[UpperDeck]

Another perspective...maybe.

First...forgive me for referencing the cost of getting an APL. That's irrelevant. At the end of the day...regardless of occupation...the cost of "entry" is what it is. We each make our own choice.

Next...can we agree that the AC hire in 2004 is now sitting in the left seat at $275-325k....if desired?

Can we also agree that said pilot ( if not "matrimonially challenged") already has a home where he/she wants to live...mortgage free?

Does anyone REALLY think that a $40,000 + increase in salary will make any significant difference in lifestyle for that pilot?

Seriously...we all make lifestyle choices but at the end of the day, few of us will be wealthy as that term is currently defined. We need housing; food; the necessities of life; AND, leisure activities. Besides that????

I agree...no question....guys hired since about 2018 have a very real problem buying a house. To me....that's a significant issue. It's ridiculous that a "regular" house costs more than 5-7 years gross salary.

Eliminate that ( HOW?) and wages come back into focus.

Turbo....are you with me? What are you working for? More to leave to beneficiaries? Fighting for principles is all well and good but isn't a glass of wine sitting on the porch watching the sunset much more enjoyable?

 

[Turbofan]

On 9/6/2024 at 1:04 PM, UpperDeck said:

 

 

And so....assume an AC labour interruption without government intervention. Those younger pilots MAY have less "invested" and at risk and can forego a few months wages. Can the same be said of those 50 year-olds with college age kids?

 

UpperDeck,

Your significant other gets paid as I do.  We are both paid about a month behind. For example I don't get paid for the most of August until September 17.  We will get strike pay about October 1.  Then a partial month on October 17, assuming a strike starts.  That 50 year old wont be in any pain before November.

As for the new hire. Strike pay is not taxable.  The year 1 pilots will make more on strike than working as sad as that sounds.

This is all of AC’s making.

 

[Turbofan]

26 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Another perspective...maybe.

First...forgive me for referencing the cost of getting an APL. That's irrelevant. At the end of the day...regardless of occupation...the cost of "entry" is what it is. We each make our own choice.

Next...can we agree that the AC hire in 2004 is now sitting in the left seat at $275-325k....if desired?

Can we also agree that said pilot ( if not "matrimonially challenged") already has a home where he/she wants to live...mortgage free?

Does anyone REALLY think that a $40,000 + increase in salary will make any significant difference in lifestyle for that pilot?

Seriously...we all make lifestyle choices but at the end of the day, few of us will be wealthy as that term is currently defined. We need housing; food; the necessities of life; AND, leisure activities. Besides that????

I agree...no question....guys hired since about 2018 have a very real problem buying a house. To me....that's a significant issue. It's ridiculous that a "regular" house costs more than 5-7 years gross salary.

Eliminate that ( HOW?) and wages come back into focus.

Turbo....are you with me? What are you working for? More to leave to beneficiaries? Fighting for principles is all well and good but isn't a glass of wine sitting on the porch watching the sunset much more enjoyable?

 

I completely understand the sentiment.  But I’m a cog not the wheel.

AC has to reinstate pre bankruptcy wages and working conditions.
 

Government intervention will only delay the process and make it more painful in the end.

Like I said earlier.  This is years in the making and only just starting.

 

[FA@AC]

6 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Government intervention will only delay the process and make it more painful in the end.

In past arbitrations AC has been able to (credibly) claim financial hardship.  They cannot do so now.

I still think that a negotiated deal at 11:59 is the most likely outcome, but failing one and should government intervention occur, it might result in a settlement far more favourable to ALPA than AC was prepared to offer at the table.

 

 

 

[Airband]

Air Canada pilots want American salaries. But they are not in America

Passengers wait to check in with Air Canada at the Vancouver International Airport

Wed Sep 11, 2024 - The Globe and Mail
by Ashley Nunes

Quote

These expectations by Air Canada pilots aren’t inflexible. What they are is economically illiterate.

Ashley Nunes is a senior research associate at Harvard Law School and teaches economic policy at Harvard College.

National carrier Air Canada and its low-cost subsidiary Rouge, are set to halt operations as C-suite and union execs bicker over wages.

Air Canada’s pilots want to close the salary gap with their higher-earning American peers. Canadian aviators make up to $352,000, with their last 10-year contracts having 2-per-cent annual raises. American peers not only earn more but have, since 2023, secured hefty salary hikes of up to 34 per cent over four years.

While reiterating that “there is still time to reach an agreement with our pilot group,” the airline has called the wage expectations of the Air Line Pilots Association “inflexible.”

I don’t exactly agree. These expectations by Air Canada pilots aren’t inflexible. What they are is economically illiterate.

Arguing that workers in one country should earn the same as workers performing similar work in another country reflects a belief that salaries are (or at least should be) based on solely the value of labour provided: An Air Canada pilot flying passengers from Toronto to Chicago should earn the same as a United Airlines pilot flying passengers on the same route.

“We’re flying the same passengers in the same airspace on some of the very same routes, and those pilots are being compensated dramatically more than us,” one union exec noted. What the airline should do – according to the union – is purge expectations that its pilots continue to accept “below-market compensation.”

At least one flier agrees. “When you’re sitting beside a plane that’s on the tarmac and it’s a United flight, for instance, and flying to the same city as you are, and that pilot sitting in the front gets twice as much money as you do, I don’t think that’s fair,” the jetsetter noted.

But wages represent more than the value of labour alone. Your salary also reflects (among other things) the cost of living when you are not at work, the perks your organization offers and the benefits the government offers.

On each of these points, Americans fare worse. The cost of living in the United States is generally higher than it is in Canada, organizational perks – think job security and severance pay, to name a few – pale in comparison with what Canadians are used to and American health care is – to put it mildly – a mess. Without anything akin to Canada’s universal health care system, nearly 80 million Americans have medical bills they can’t afford and one in 12 Americans report losing their homes in part because of these debts. Put simply, Americans, be they bartenders, burger flippers or pilots, need to earn more because the expenses they incur are far heftier.

Pressing for wage hikes is understandable. Why earn less when you can earn more. Arguing that wages haven’t kept up with inflation is also reasonable. Why? Because they clearly haven’t. Data from Statistics Canada show that many Canadians have seen their “real wages” – how much we earn after accounting for inflation – have dropped. Maybe Air Canada pilots should indeed be paid more than their paltry top end of $352,000.

But arguing that workers in one country should earn as much as workers performing the same work in another defies economic logic. While union execs argue that a pay hike is about fairness and equity, what they are really asking for is a better deal than their American counterparts. A deal that – given cost of living differences between the Canada and the U.S. – allows Canadian pilots to earn more than their southern neighbours, while spending less.

So much for equity.

In the meantime, it is the passengers who suffer. If both parties don’t reach an agreement, a shutdown could ensue. By some estimates, a three-day strike by Air Canada’s 5,200 pilots risks the cancellation of more than 2,000 flights, disrupting the travel plans of over 300,000 passengers. The airline has called this scenario “increasingly likely.”

All packed up, no place to go. Those seven words could soon describe the plight of thousands of fliers across Canada.

[Turbofan]

Ah yes, Ashley Nunes.  The Canadian aviation sectors anti union hired gun makes another appearance.

Lets see if I can find a few of his past gems. Before I do.  Notice anything in his rant that is a bit off?
 

1) AC pilots want their pre bankruptcy wages back, which is similar to US wages.

2) Canada’s health care system is in better shape than the US?

3) Cost of living is lower in Canada?

 

[Turbofan]

Ashley Nunes delivers aviation corporations messages for hire.  To be honest this one for AC doesn’t look as polished as usual. The health care and cost of living remarks look like he just free handed it.
 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-westjet-mechanics-strike-delays/
 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/westjet-strike-1.4662426

 

[Turbofan]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/privacy-terms/licensing-and-permissions/
 

Any article that has "Special to the Globe and Mail" under the reporter's name or at the very bottom of the piece signifies freelanced content.

[Turbofan]

For me the question is this.  How far is AC willing to go in trashing its employees in the press?  How much is this costing them to do?  

Everyone, including other employee groups, are watching and learning very quickly what AC really thinks of them with this ongoing deliberate spinning of misinformation into the press.

I think they are making a mistake.  I think other employee groups following this are only learning that you have to be prepared for war when you negotiate with AC.

[Turbofan]

I couldn’t stop from laughing out loud.  For those that don’t remember Pierre Poilievre was the bespectacled MP who defended the Harper legislation in the House of Commons to put AC pilots into Final selection Arbitration in 2012. Now it’s all Trudeau’s fault we are so far behind.

Politics.

[Turbofan]

55 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

For me the question is this.  How far is AC willing to go in trashing its employees in the press?  How much is this costing them to do?  

Everyone, including other employee groups, are watching and learning very quickly what AC really thinks of them with this ongoing deliberate spinning of misinformation into the press.

I think they are making a mistake.  I think other employee groups following this are only learning that you have to be prepared for war when you negotiate with AC.

 

[Turbofan]

 

More.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/business-groups-urge-ottawa-prevent-160418665.html

 

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Around 100 business groups on Wednesday urged Ottawa to prevent a strike by Air Canada pilots, saying a stoppage would disrupt supply chains and spoil Canada's reputation as a reliable partner.

 

"Should the parties not come to a negotiated agreement, the federal government must... be prepared to act in advance to prevent yet another damaging disruption by referring the matter to binding arbitration where a neutral arbitrator can resolve any outstanding issues."

[UpperDeck]

6 hours ago, Turbofan said:

 

More.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/business-groups-urge-ottawa-prevent-160418665.html

 

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Around 100 business groups on Wednesday urged Ottawa to prevent a strike by Air Canada pilots, saying a stoppage would disrupt supply chains and spoil Canada's reputation as a reliable partner.

 

"Should the parties not come to a negotiated agreement, the federal government must... be prepared to act in advance to prevent yet another damaging disruption by referring the matter to binding arbitration where a neutral arbitrator can resolve any outstanding issues."

Turbo.....you old advocate you!! I'm wondering if you're actually trying to convert anyone on an "airline employee forum". Fear not.....I'm here to offer an opportunity to exercise your skills.

Westjet has seven 787-9 series aircraft. The rest of the fleet are 737's and Dash etc  Do you know what the left seat on one of those "Dreamers" is paid per hour? Are you able to compare with an AC Captain on "our" "Dreamers"?

As we all know, pilots are paid on "lift" and one moves up ( relatively and sometimes) based on seniority.

Do you agree that comparing a 20 year WJ pilot left seat on a 737 to a 10 year AC pilot is misleading?

I'm inclined to agree that those on the bottom of the AC list are entitled to a "boost". Can you agree that collectively, we are fixated on percentages?

40% to a pilot earning $70 k has a significant impact on that pilot's enjoyment of life ($28 k). Compare that to a senior pilot at $325k. A 20% increase (65k) is a LOT of pie 'cuz that's what it is ....gravy!!

Respectfully....I suggest that comparing salaries with US carriers won't take you far and, more importantly, demanding that the starting gate for this race be 2003 wages is a guarantee that it won't be run. In my opinion, shooting for the stars when the moon should be the goal is a guarantee of frustration and disappointment. Better one should set the bars lower and exceed them than vice versa.

[Turbofan]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo.....you old advocate you!! I'm wondering if you're actually trying to convert anyone on an "airline employee forum". Fear not.....I'm here to offer an opportunity to exercise your skills.

Westjet has seven 787-9 series aircraft. The rest of the fleet are 737's and Dash etc  Do you know what the left seat on one of those "Dreamers" is paid per hour? Are you able to compare with an AC Captain on "our" "Dreamers"?

As we all know, pilots are paid on "lift" and one moves up ( relatively and sometimes) based on seniority.

Do you agree that comparing a 20 year WJ pilot left seat on a 737 to a 10 year AC pilot is misleading?

I'm inclined to agree that those on the bottom of the AC list are entitled to a "boost". Can you agree that collectively, we are fixated on percentages?

40% to a pilot earning $70 k has a significant impact on that pilot's enjoyment of life ($28 k). Compare that to a senior pilot at $325k. A 20% increase (65k) is a LOT of pie 'cuz that's what it is ....gravy!!

Respectfully....I suggest that comparing salaries with US carriers won't take you far and, more importantly, demanding that the starting gate for this race be 2003 wages is a guarantee that it won't be run. In my opinion, shooting for the stars when the moon should be the goal is a guarantee of frustration and disappointment. Better one should set the bars lower and exceed them than vice versa.

Upperdeck wrote:

"Westjet has seven 787-9 series aircraft. The rest of the fleet are 737's and Dash etc  Do you know what the left seat on one of those "Dreamers" is paid per hour? Are you able to compare with an AC Captain on "our" "Dreamers"?

As we all know, pilots are paid on "lift" and one moves up ( relatively and sometimes) based on seniority.

Do you agree that comparing a 20 year WJ pilot left seat on a 737 to a 10 year AC pilot is misleading?"

You completely lost me.  Where is all that coming from and how does it relate to the post you quoted?

As for the rest.  I’m repeating myself a lot here.

We are seeking to recover our wages and working conditions from 2003. 

We gave in bankruptcy. We were forced to give again during the last government intervention.

It needs to be returned. We are not asking.

If you don’t like the position you are free to disagree. 

I’m beginning to wonder if you are taking some of this personally for some reason.

I do not think it unreasonable in the least to ask for what we gave to make Air Canada profitable, back.  There are about 5300 of us with the same mind set.

Like I said.  This is years in the making.  There won’t be a change in direction at the last second.

[FA@AC]

9 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

I’m repeating myself a lot here.

 

But not answering the the questions that UpperDeck put to you.

[Turbofan]

16 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

But not answering the the questions that UpperDeck put to you.

I don’t understand the question.  
 

i don’t believe WJ has 787-9’s.  Pretty sure it is the lighter 787-8.

The only completely comparable aircraft would be the 737.

WJ makes about 30% more.  I believe about 305 next year. AC’s wage from 2003 inflation adjusted to today about 335-340.  United pays 345USD.

Our pay scales all top out at 12 years.  There is no difference in pay between me, 20 plus years and someone who has been at AC 12 years.  
 

A 10 year CA is almost at the top of the pay scale.  That pilot is very close in comparison to someone at 20 or 30 YOS.

Is that the info you are looking for?

[UpperDeck]

5 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

I don’t understand the question

Turbo....I think you do understand the question but if I have been obtuse, forgive me. Tell me where I have been unclear and I will try to be more precise.

The quote I used to reply was irrelevant. I only used it to ensure you received notice of my post which was of course directed to you.

I am not personally offended by anything here and I have no axe to grind. You have been VERY clear; "You" want a re-calculation of everything since 2003.

I am "talking" to you as I would over a beer ( or drink of choice!). I am seeking an objective response rather than emotional; equivalency rather than hyperbole.

Does that offend you? Certainly no offence was intended.

[FA@AC]

14 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

I don’t understand the question.  
 

i don’t believe WJ has 787-9’s.  Pretty sure it is the lighter 787-8.

The only completely comparable aircraft would be the 737.

WJ makes about 30% more.  I believe about 305 next year. AC’s wage from 2003 inflation adjusted to today about 335-340.  United pays 345USD.

Our pay scales all top out at 12 years.  There is no difference in pay between me and someone who has been at AC 12 years.  Less than half as long.

Is that the info you are looking for?

Yes, thanks.  

WestJet's 787s are all -9s btw.

[Turbofan]

6 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....I think you do understand the question but if I have been obtuse, forgive me. Tell me where I have been unclear and I will try to be more precise.

The quote I used to reply was irrelevant. I only used it to ensure you received notice of my post which was of course directed to you.

I am not personally offended by anything here and I have no axe to grind. You have been VERY clear; "You" want a re-calculation of everything since 2003.

I am "talking" to you as I would over a beer ( or drink of choice!). I am seeking an objective response rather than emotional; equivalency rather than hyperbole.

Does that offend you? Certainly no offence was intended.

Maybe rephrase the question Mr lawyer.  

Yes I can tell you are up to something. 

I just don’t know what. 

[Turbofan]

3 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

Yes, thanks.  

WestJet's 787s are all -9s btw.

I did not know that.  Thanks for the correction.