More on Pilot Fatigue

[Trader]

Pilot Fatigue

[Critter]

Seems to be a hot topic lately. I hope it gets the attention it deserves.

More on Pilot fatigue

The EASA Report

[GTFA]

"Let's looks at the case on the Hudson River just last week," said Mr Neville, a member of The Nationals Party, referring to the incident in New York last week when a commercial airline pilot landed his plane into the icy Hudson after both engines malfunctioned.

"Let's say he was at the end of his tether with fatigue. Might we have achieved the same result? That's the problem we're looking at.""

Well, that's why pilots make the BIG bucks.

This topic is a slippery slope. Of course fatigue in any high risk operation is a concern but for a public agency to study and make recommendations will most likely miss the mark and prevent airlines and pilots from doing their jobs by exercising their professional discretion.

What about highway fatigue, hospital fatigue, pharmaceutical fatigue, assemblyline fatigue, babysitter fatigue...

[Kip Powick]

"Let's say he was at the end of his tether with fatigue. Might we have achieved the same result? "

No matter how tired one is adrenaline can do wonderful things....especially when you have about 2 minutes to decide whether to live..... or die

[Don Hudson]

GTFA;

Canada is the aviation industry's "Monrovia" as far as Transport Canada's Flight Time Limitations and Duty Hours regulations go.

Saying that's what pilots get paid for is silly - money doesn't combat fatigue, and besides have you checked pilot salaries lately? How about $37,000/year for F/O's on the Embraer and $45k for captains when starting out? Brand new teachers make more.

The science on fatigue is clear but has been ignored in favour of politics - dealing with legitmate fatigue issues has been deemed by the industry as "too expensive" - the successful ATAC lobby proved that when the CARS were being written - despite the available expertise and science. Money trumped, and still trumps safety with regard to these regulations.

Pilot collective agreements have stepped in where the regulations fail to provide adequate limitations and crewing for long haul flights.

Like other areas where unions throughout the industry have stepped in to fill the technical and safety void left by senior managements which are losing their technical edge because they so focussed on cost and profit, pilot unions are stepping in. In fact this is a noticeable industry-wide trend - executive managements are less and less capable of detailed, knowledgeable, credible discussions about design, technical, safety and operational matters (not just my opinion - this has been observed by manufacturers) and pilot unions are filling the vacuum.

The topic is most certainly not a slippery slope if done where both the science and the financial impact to operators is handled intelligently and with give and take. But you seem to believe that 20 hours on duty - 23 hours if there are "unforeseen circumstances, but always at least 14hrs in the seat) with 3 pilots is sufficient to maintain flight safety throughout airline operations. I strongly disagree both from experience and from what is known about human fatigue. In other words, it isn't a free-for-all featherbedding exercise as some managements ignorant of the facts assume - pilots are key players in the survival of their company but they are also key - really the only - players in the cockpit and are best placed to assess risk. Do you advocate dismissing that expertise in favour of mere opinions and other ridiculously uninformed notions?

Of course fatigue in any high risk operation is a concern but for a public agency to study and make recommendations will most likely miss the mark and prevent airlines and pilots from doing their jobs by exercising their professional discretion.

Done poorly and in bad faith that is a possible outcome. In fact, the science actually shows this to be a fact in a collective agreement I am familiar with - there are actually areas where loosening up the limitations is a legitimate and needed change - but, there are other areas which the science shows a tighter limitation is needed - these are mainly to do with sleep cycle, circadian rhythm issues. FRMS is actually good for both the operator and the pilot group primarily because of enhanced safety through fatigue management but also economically through more intelligent use of crews' duty times.

What about highway fatigue, hospital fatigue, pharmaceutical fatigue, assemblyline fatigue, babysitter fatigue...

Yes indeed - very good point, and dealt with by the trucking and transport industry with far better regulations with much tougher teeth (fines, loss of job) than aviation. So, along with most on your list, (babysitter fatigue? gimme a break!), what about fatigue for maintenance personnel? It is already a known fact, with incidents to prove it, that fatigue on the part of maintenance personnel can be as serious as fatigue for flight crews - there are examples one can cite. Shift work, long hours and work which does not take into account circadian rhythms all contribute to higher risk, some of which have cost operators millions.

These matter aren't some union's socialist plot to get more money, to sleep on the job and to otherwise slough off work by featherbedding the ranks. Like I say, pilots have very strong motivations to ensure their company survives all risks and not just the financial ones.

Kip - fully agree - haven't we all been there once or twice in a career! But the whole idea is to avoid shots of adrenalin to save the day in the first place!

[Canus Chinookus]

Surgeons need sleep legislation like I've never seen in an industry. I don't care how smart these guys think they are, all people make stupid mistakes when they're too tired.

[Don Hudson]

CC - I read somewhere that along with iatrogenesis, physician error kills about 45,000 patients per year in the U.S. - about the same as their (ailing) auto industry kills. Given the 36hr work ethic and reluctance to drop the hero and ego thing, this will continue until they realize what flight crews realized a long, long time ago but which managements of both industries have yet to fully comprehend and act upon and shareholders know nothing about and dont' care to know.

[Canus Chinookus]

The God complex needs to go as well, and start bringing in team builders/leaders instead of doctor dictators...

[Don Hudson]

Re the God Complex, yes, that's what I meant by the "hero and ego" statement - pilots by and large, though not wholly, got rid of that nonsense a long time ago because the safety industry recognized that both human foibles injure and kill people, destroy property and threaten the existence of their company. The U.S. medical system isn't the best in the world, it is the most expensive, by far, because of the drive for profit-over-people, and ego. Mitigate both and costs would plummet but that's too much to ask of a system which has become addicted to both and co-dependantly invites newcomers to join the crowd.

[Guest rattler]

And even closer to home in our industry:

Partial quote from the article

Today I came across an article indicating ICAO, the U.N. Agency that sets standards for air transport, is drawing up new safety rules to take into account pilot fatigue. For years safety organizations and pilot unions have been politicking for more stringent regulations and working hour and rest period enforcement.

The article states ICAO is preparing to abandon the current rules based on flight time limitations in favor of a new concept known as “fatigue risk management systems.” Fatigue is defined as decreased ability to function due to mental or physical stress. Symptoms include longer reaction times, short-term memory loss, impaired judgment, and reduced visual perception.

I suggest that ICAO take this opportunity to study and apply the similar consideration to maintenance worker hours. Certainly the fatigue factors indicated above are applicable to the maintenance worker. I know of no standards of rest for maintenance personnel despite the fact that this work is crucial to safety. Maintenance workers often work long hours of continuous mental and physical strain many of which are in inclement weather and other conditions. Additionally, the ergonomic conditions are not always the best to perform the work. These factors will result in a decreased ability to work well.

Complete article can be read at:

http://www.amtonline.com/interactive/2009/.../fatigue-rules/

[Don Hudson]

Rattler;

If I ever have a big project on hand, I'm hiring you as my research resource! You never sleep, do ya?

[Lakelad]

The God complex needs to go as well, and start bringing in team builders/leaders instead of doctor dictators...

Surgery checklists could save lives, study reveals

Jan 14, 2009 - National Post

by Tom Blackwell

Airline pilots have used them for years as a proven method to make flying less dangerous. Now there is evidence that surgical staff can dramatically curb the amount of harm they inadvertently do to patients simply by working through checklists before, during and after operations.

Employing a standard checklist slashes the number of serious complications and deaths from surgery by more than a third, an international study published Wednesday by hospitals in Toronto and seven other cities concluded.

The concept could have a huge impact if incorporated into all two million operations performed yearly in Canadian hospitals, experts said Wednesday.

"That translates to something like 60,000 people who have operations and would be spared complications," said Dr. Bryce Taylor, chief surgeon at Toronto's University Health Network. "That's a pretty impressive number for something that doesn't cost you anything to do."

And the researchers say their findings, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, could be applied to many other areas of health care, as well.

Toronto General, one of the network's hospitals, was part of the eight-city study spearheaded by the World Health Organization (WHO). To inspire his doctors and nurses, Dr. Taylor at one point had a senior Air Canada training pilot speak to them about the concept.

"That's the lesson we learned in aviation. When the pilots were God, then the planes crashed"

[CD]

FRMS for maintenance is coming here in Canada... We also talked about FRMS last summer in this thread, with some varying opinion. Also this thread from 2005.

ICAO is not abandoning prescriptive duty time limitation but is, rather, adding the FRMS option to Annex 6.

[Guest rattler]

Rattler;

If I ever have a big project on hand, I'm hiring you as my research resource! You never sleep, do ya?

don't really spend that much time at the computer, I have it on and when I take a break from my woodworking, reading, cooking, time with the grandchildren etc. I take a look. As far as research, it is amazing what a number of RSS fields can provide. Cheers.

[Kip Powick]

OK...I have read the entire thread and its links and throw this out for discussion..............

There seems to be penchant to base the fatique study on "long haulers".

Would that not indicate the "older" pilots flying the "big" machines?

Would this not be a good case of changing the pay scale to "seniority" instead of aircraft type. Typically heavy operators are guys in their last 5-7years that are doing it for the $$.(pension build up)

Has a survey ever been done that would ask if senior pilots could do "one dayers" or "two dayers", less "time zones", for the same pay as they now get for the long haul flights would they be happy...?? ...let's face it a young pilot has more stamina than an old fella.

(((((((((Please don't use the "experience" argument against using younger pilots on long haul.))))) Not valid, in my opinon.

Why would a cause of fatigue be inadequate rest before a flight??Are we talking about pilots on an overnight or a fellow at home who does not get a good nights rest?? The guy at home needs to get his life in order if he is fatgued before he goes to work...if he can't hack it then "book-off". The guy in the hotel who can't sleep...what are the reasons....? and then start the correction solution.

From the bleachers, it seems to me that much of the fatigue of todays pilots can be attributed to boredom. With the automatic gizmos pilots enjoy now, there is really little to do on a very long flight........just a personal interjection here, but I did enjoy the A310 for 3 years but was happy to leave it and fly the B737-200 as there was more to do on the Truckasaurus Rex than the Plastic Rocket....time flys when you are busy

So what is the solution....from the guys who are doing it now, (long-haulers)? More crew, more time off at destination...less hours in a month .....what do you want??????

[Don Hudson]

Hi Kip;

Thanks for the input and questions...great stuff.

The issue isn't age-related - it's physiologically-related. The subtle difference, notwithstanding older pilots may be slightly less able to recover from long haul flights is, no matter how old, the human body is governed by the effects of fatigue and the need to mitigate same, related to its circadian rhythm. That isn't a youth vs. old problem.

The issue doesn't go away with BA or Lufthansa, both of which have the system you describe - status and service pay.

The other issue which I thought you were going to broach is, domestic long duty days. We have four and a half time zones in Canada and I know what fatigue comes from leaving St. John's at 9pm Nlfd time and doing four legs to Vancouver to arrive around 7am. It was plain unsafe - there wasn't a flight when one or two of us didn't fall asleep in the cockpit at some point - thank heaven there were three pilots. There is some who now think that the controlled rest legislation is somehow a substitute for appropriate duty days - that was always the fear when that legistlation was brought in - that it would be seen as "the" solution, and it has been. Transport will simply dismiss our concerns once again, I'm sure.

Some domestic flying is much worse than overseas flying but nothing will equal an 18hr day no matter what anyone says.

It doesn't matter what fatigue comes from. Mitigating strategies are what count. You say boredom but I never found that - there was always work to do that kept one "up" and I did it from Toronto to Asia and Europe and from Vancouver to the same continents as well as Australia. That said, controlled rest was a part of our strategy on long haul and it worked very well but we also had the collective agreement to support proper augmentation. I believe there is in some infrequent cases, a need for augmentation domestically - the kind of duty day the Little Rock American MD80 crew had is a case in point - fatigue is listed as a contributing cause.

More time off is a curious thing. In fact, quick turns from Hong Kong, (layover about 17hrs, results in lower fatigue than 24hrs and 32hrs is worse. Fourty-eight hours seems to work and that is the ULR rules for Singapore on their SIN - LAX route.

As you will have read in the thread, there are actually some savings which can be realized from doing proper FRMS - the above example is such a case, where a short layover, just barely the length of the previous duty day, actually works. The entire cycle is 46hrs from door to door. I can recall Vancouver - London - Bombay cycles two weeks long that took the other half of the month to recover from.

What I think is needed is not a survey of what pilots want. Most don't know the physiological requirements and the science now widely available. I think the dialogue needs that science to do long haul and domestic, properly, and those regs need to apply to our maintenance people with equal strictness. The F/As have, in some cases, better long-haul arrangements in their CA's than we do.

[handyman]

So what is the solution....from the guys who are doing it now, (long-haulers)? More crew, more time off at destination...less hours in a month .....what do you want??????

More consideration of your local time zone. Stay in Hotels that have quiet floors and serve breakfast at 10PM. More time between long haul parings. 7 days is not enough to recover from a 15 hour time zone shift. Variety of patterns so boredom and complacency don't creep in. 3 man long haul does not work...you need a 4 man crew.

Just a few quick ideas that come to mind.

...and I totally agree with the 17 hour quick turn!

[CD]

The F/As have, in some cases, better long-haul arrangements in their CA's than we do.

Perhaps at Air Canada... However, there are still other organizations where the front-end crew can be relieved per regulatory limitations while the back-end is expected to continue as there is no such limitation for them (at least in Canada).

It was interesting to note that FRMS was proposed for flight attendants first, but withdrawn following opposition (from both operators and labour). I'm glad to see that at least the maintenance FRMS requirements are moving forward -- hopefully, the rest will follow.

[Guest rattler]

Perhaps at Air Canada...  However, there are still other organizations where the front-end crew can be relieved per regulatory limitations while the back-end is expected to continue as there is no such limitation for them (at least in Canada). 

It was interesting to note that FRMS was proposed for flight attendants first, but withdrawn following opposition (from both operators and labour).  I'm glad to see that at least the maintenance FRMS requirements are moving forward -- hopefully, the rest will follow.

Not sure where this ended up.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/...c04/2004007.htm

Commercial Air Service Operations (CASO)

Technical Committee Meeting (December 14 & 15, 2004)

Notice of Proposed Amendments (NPA 2004-007)

NPA / APM

2004-007

Reference / référence:

720.xx (new)

English Title / titre anglais:

Fatigue Risk Management System for Flight Attendants

French Title / titre francais:

Système de gestion des risques liés à la fatigue aux agents de bord

Sponsor (indicate if not the OPI Branch or TC) / Bureau responsable (indiquer si ce n’est pas la direction du BPR ou TC)

 

Language (E – F - Both)

Langue (A – F – les deux)

Both / Les deux

But perhaps only here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/innovation/tdc/publica...frms/14573e.pdf

[mo32a]

Would it work to have a crew based in Hong Kong fly the aircraft to YVR say and then deadhead back right away and do the reverse, have the YVR crew fly to Hong Kong and then dead head back?

Would that mitigate the number of flight crew required or would the cost be prohibitive?

[Don Hudson]

mo32a;

Would it work to have a crew based in Hong Kong fly the aircraft to YVR say and then deadhead back right away and do the reverse, have the YVR crew fly to Hong Kong and then dead head back?

That would be against even the Canadian duty regulations, but I'm sure if it reduced costs, there is an airline that would do it if legal.

What you're advocating is about a 30 to 32hr workday which wouldn't be agreed to by anyone. To start with we know how well sleep can be had in Economy - it simply doesn't happen; catnaps maybe but not sleep, and the result, I suspect the science would show, is a far more tired crew than if the layover was taken instead. The short rest turns seem to work best for all concerned but that's just one example. It doesn't work for Toronto > Hong-Kong because of arrival/departure times, nor for YVR > NRT/KIX/SEL/PEK/SHA for the same reason. Also, these flights are typically oversold and removing say 18 seats from inventory would be prohibitive.

[handyman]

Would it work to have a crew based in Hong Kong fly the aircraft to YVR say and then deadhead back right away and do the reverse, have the YVR crew fly to Hong Kong and then dead head back?

Would that mitigate the number of flight crew required or would the cost be prohibitive?

It would be cost prohibited because everyone would QUIT!

I think I would be sick for at least a week after that sort of schedule.

Oh silly me...this is a AC pilot fatigue thread.

[GTFA]

Saying that's what pilots get paid for is silly - money doesn't combat fatigue, and besides have you checked pilot salaries lately? How about $37,000/year for F/O's on the Embraer and $45k for captains when starting out? Brand new teachers make more.

Sorry Don that was made partly tongue in cheek. But on the other hand I have found that part of the problem is that pilots as well as employers are either not properly educated or not paying attention to fatigue issues. It is a responsibility of a professional pilot to manage his own fatigue. Of course there are limitations to his discretion and that, of course is where the pilot's association comes in.

Babysitter fatigue???? Whyt not? I wouldn't want my babysitter dozing off in the park with my wee'un frollocking amongst strangers any more than I would want my pilot taking micronaps on short final.

Fatigue is a symptom of our new, fasterpaced, information laden, high stress lifestyles. Not just duty times while at work. If you were to pay me enough to live in a quiet neighbourhood with a wife that can stay home and manage things while I'm away, and afford a decent car that doesn't break down on the way to the airport, and take restful vacations instead of chaotic misadventures to stay within my budget or have to stayhome to do repairs etc... I would come to work MUCH more rested, sleep better in my hotel room and stay much more clearly focussed on the task at hand during flight. Duty time is only a part of the puzzle.

GTFA

[Guest phx74]

I have found that part of the problem is that pilots as well as employers are either not properly educated or not paying attention to fatigue issues. It is a responsibility of a professional pilot to manage his own fatigue. Of course there are limitations to his discretion and that, of course is where the pilot's association comes in.

Sorry to jump in here...new to this.

What if the rules continue to allow a pilot to become fatigued? What recourse does a pilot have when the employer is scheduling legally?

This is why these new guidelines are needed and employer's need to adhere to them. I'm not so sure they will unless forced though.

[Don Hudson]

Sorry Don that was made partly tongue in cheek.

...sorry, jumped too quick!

But on the other hand I have found that part of the problem is that pilots as well as employers are either not properly educated or not paying attention to fatigue issues. It is a responsibility of a professional pilot to manage his own fatigue.

Truer words, etc...and most do, coming to work properly rested. Even then, I used to know a few who commuted from, say, the Caribbean, to Vancouver and then went flying over the Pacific or some who lived in the Southern US or in Europe and did the same. Most commuters know the rules and plan ahead but a few take extreme risk and place their entire crew in jeopardy should anything happen.

That said, phx74, your comments are spot on. Yes, companies would schedule right to the max - I know it because that was the first (and only) proposal the pilots received when we emerged from CCAA - CARS limits, period. I have the documents. Justice Winkler appropriately stepped in and a more normal give-and-take resulted.

Babysitter fatigue???? Whyt not? I wouldn't want my babysitter dozing off in the park with my wee'un frollocking amongst strangers any more than I would want my pilot taking micronaps on short final.

Yes, I thought about that after - it's been $3 to $5 an hour since we had babysitters but you're right. I just didn't see the connection with the regulations governing fatigue.

Fatigue is a symptom of our new, fasterpaced, information laden, high stress lifestyles. Not just duty times while at work. If you were to pay me enough to live in a quiet neighbourhood with a wife that can stay home and manage things while I'm away, and afford a decent car that doesn't break down on the way to the airport, and take restful vacations instead of chaotic misadventures to stay within my budget or have to stayhome to do repairs etc... I would come to work MUCH more rested, sleep better in my hotel room and stay much more clearly focussed on the task at hand during flight. Duty time is only a part of the puzzle.

You may or may not appreciate it but hundreds of books, university courses, and social action programs have been written/done on this very theme - on this comment alone, an entire thread could, (and has) be carried on, on the merits of a society that works for wages that have decreased dramatically in comparison with profits and cashflow, not in the last year but over the last thirty-five years and who now are expected to work 24/7, increasingly past 65, mostly for organizations which ask in many different ways, "What have you done for us lately?" while executive salaries and "rewards" have left employees in the dust for average management work and outright failure.

What you have keyed on is a neoliberal political economy - a nominal capitalist economy in which the rules have been re-worked by private industry through threats to governments that industry will take it's business to the third world, (and has) and so governments, protectors of their people, buckled and caved in to decades of demands - what are "corporate lawyers" for, but to ensure "favourable conditions for business". Interestingly, as favourable as it got over the past 3 decades, it was never enough and now it is nothing and people are losing jobs and homes, just to start with.

The present economy is based upon the principles of Nobel-prize winner, Michael Freidman but to extremes in the drive for unbridled profit as owners and shareholders demand increasingly swift, (speculative) double-digit profits on a consistent basis. Now not all corporations work that way we know, but it doesn't take many in which their economy is larger than many countries to do so before an economy is shifted towards private interests and beyond government's ability to protect citizens not against crime but against the worst effects of excess in business. The massive failures of intervention which have led to the present crisis are precisely a case in point - employees, struggling with low wages, loss of pension plans and benefits did not cause the present economic collapse - a few in Washington and the Fed did while Bush stood by his cronies in business.

Business isn't "bad" - but greed needs mitigation by those institutions that are charged not with facilitating business's every profit-whim but with protecting citizens against all threats including the ordinary ones and not just the manufactured ones.

People have to drive a car that leaks oil and live in neighbourhoods not conducive to family life partly because wages are low in proportion to the business done. It used to be that a house cost a year's wages. What happened, not here in Vancouver, but around the world? Demand, of course, more people/less space, no.

Absolutely there will be exceptions but wages have not kept up with the rate of growth of the economy since the early 70's. Who's children are still at home because they cannot afford rent, a starter home or even a car? How many of your adult children have high, five-figure student loans? - the results were just announced last week? How many of our children are saving for, or even capable of saving for their retirement under those magic, 401k or RRSP plans? I submit that there are very few indeed, partly because wages have gone overseas, partly because the rate of employee representation is low and has been trending lower since the mid-thirties, partly because the demand for consistent profit as payback for risking one's money, (as though employees don't risk even more...their lifetime), and partly because people themselves have not got off their behinds to deal with the issues and instead believe in the tooth fairy or the nanny-state, which has largely been dismantled over the last thirty years.

I said in October that we are going to see breadlines again, with children in them. If we take a look at the latest employment numbers and layoff announcements, 2009 will be another dust-bowl for many families. The factors aren't hidden nor are the causes difficult to see. What was difficult to see were the people who caused the current disaster - yes, people thought they could own a half-million dollar home on 60,000 a year and education, not just the consumer kind, but real education, is part of the issue. Illusions have been promoted by greed and permitted to continue by Washington. Thank heaven for Canada's some-say "socialist" ways that wisely protect people against the worst effects of such greed.

Anyway, apologies to the poster (can't recall who), who thought some here post too long a post. Thanks for your response GTFA.