handyman Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 This thread shows to true adhesive nature of the AC pilot group. Must be some lovely conversations in the cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 This thread shows to true adhesive nature of the AC pilot group. Must be some lovely conversations in the cockpit. Nice shot there CP. Actually you could not be further from the truth, I have not had any experience like that whatsoever. The guys I have worked with have been very professional and courteous, as it should be. It isn't personal it is just business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exGXer Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 "It isn't personal it is just business." And I suppose all those twerps running around with their OAC maple leaf and morse code sticker are from the propoganda dept. No matter what you say, it's personal and anyone who believes different is totally naieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 No exGXer, I think that's an expression of the human side of "business"... they're expressing their feelings on the matter, that's all. Like wearing a Blue Jays shirt to a ball game... to support your team. To call it personal would be to presume that one side wants the other to be hurt... but that isn't the case... they each only wanted to do their utmost to minimize the damage to themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 2. The Mitchnick and Keller ratio awards are both biased in favour of AC Pilots over CDPilots. In fact, under the Mitchnick award, the only pilots who win under the mergerare AC Pilots and the only pilots who lose from the merger are CD Pilots. The awards do not meet the fairness test. 3. The Mitchnick and Keller awards both generate large windfall gains for some pilots at the expense of windfall losses for other pilots. 4. There is a feasible ratio merger method, the RMS Optimal List, that is fair to both AC Pilots and CD Pilots. The average gain for the two pilot groups is approximately the same, with an advantage going to the AC Pilots. Compared to the Mitchnick and Keller lists, the RMS Optimal list has a lower dispersion of gains and losses, with no windfall gains and losses for individual pilots. 5. The most junior group of approximately 600 AC Pilots wins under any merger scenario. Even if they are merged in at the end of a ratio list, each one of them increases his PV of career earnings. This happens because, as AC Pilots, they would be junior to young pilots whose seniority blocked them from advancing to higher status and equipment levels and who don’t retire early enough for the junior group to advance. The ability of the junior AC Pilots to bid for positions coming in from the former Canadian Airlines makes each of these pilots better off under the merger. 4 per Gordon Sick, PhD. Dec. 19th, 2003 The RMS system was recommended by CD. The above analysis flys in the face of the repeated assertions of losses arising from implementation of Keller. That is because those posters have a static perception of their status and don't appreciate the significance of demographics and change over time. Can't help but wonder just how many actually understand the whole process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 No exGXer, I think that's an expression of the human side of "business"... they're expressing their feelings on the matter, that's all. Like wearing a Blue Jays shirt to a ball game... to support your team. To call it personal would be to presume that one side wants the other to be hurt... but that isn't the case... they each only wanted to do their utmost to minimize the damage to themselves. Well Mitch, it sounds like it's getting personal to me and I'm sure Kip is feeling that way too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Anger can get personal, of course. But all the stuff that caused the anger is not. Directing anger appropriately is something it seems the majority of people have trouble with, especially when it's intense. ... I reckon Kip has some of the thick skin we all develop in this business, and plenty of the working grey matter needed to work out what's anger and what's personal. (Not to mention a pretty good supply of opportunity to unwind if he should happen to take on more of the personal than he needs ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest long keel Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Kip, I never bring up merger discussions in the cockpit, period. Same with merger discussions in multiple group use forum. Why? Neither side will in the end change their mind about a thing based on what the other says so why bother unless you are rubbing salt (OCP), or looking for a fight that won't be won (OAC). It is a futile waste of time that accomplishes nothing except to anger some and create bad feelings. Every single OCP pilot now earns substantially more as a result of this merger compared to what their pre-merger contract offered. Not one OAC pilot has seen their situation improved by the purchase of CAIL. DOH would move me up 70+ numbers, I'm OAC, my pre-merger partner from CAIL is now able to hold the A320 as a Captain while I can't even hold the right seat of the A320 at the same position I could prior to the merger six years after. Winfall gains all went to the OCP group. (Has your mind changed about the fairness of Keller now Kip, not likely, please see paragraph one about why I never initiate these conversations.) I lay the blame squarely on the OAC merger committee. I feel that they were absolute fools for walking out when things weren't going their way as it meant no future judge would take an appeal seriously. This is exactly what happened. If there is any avenue of appeal left that is within the laws of the great country of Canada then I believe they should be pursued as what we have is so unfair to some sections of the list. (The top third seems reasonable, the CRA factor really made a mess of the bottom 500 numbers imho.) If there are no legal avenues left to pursue I'll be forced to accept the fate of what I know in my heart is a truly unfair and unjust award, or quit. So be it. So far 50+ OAC's have quit due to the Keller effect on their careers. Thankfully almost all of the OCP Captains I work with have enough tact to never bring up the topic. The one turkey who thought it was a good topic for discussion is now the only bid to avoid on my bid. Perhaps you can follow the majority of your companions good judgement and stay out of the fray. No good will come of it so why bother? You are retired, the fight is not yours. Why stir the pot when clearly most of us want to avoid this discussion? (It took me three days to even come to the point where I felt I could respond without making it too personal.) lk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 ...............the Keller award was never reviewed, neither by the CIRB, (as was promised)or the courts. If it is as fair and equitable as the "X"'s purport it to be then why not have a review and put it to bed once and for all ? ? .................... suggested reading.......... FCA 20 May 2005 (ACPA website) entire document, and if one finds it too cumbersome at least read paras 145/146/147. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 . . . . I'm OAC, my pre-merger partner from CAIL. . . .Not sure what you mean by pre-merger partner. Can you clarify please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hola John, I think he means the fellow who was in CP at the relative same position on his seniority list as was he, (long keel), on the AC list PRIOR to merge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest long keel Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Not sure what you mean by pre-merger partner. Can you clarify please? It means comparing the person who was on the same system seniority, ie 50% vs. 50%, 90% vs. 90% etc. I never considered Mitchnik as a benchmark, only the pre-merger positions. The bottom 1/3'rd of CAIL pilots won the lottery. We had cases where DC-10 second officers on reserve now hold top blocks on the A320 as F/O's while the OAC senior A320 f/o's end up on reserve.. A320 f/o's below 60% ended up as RP's or RJ f/o's. Some had a winfall gain, others a winfall loss. We've had numurous CAIL 737 and A320 F/o's move to the 767 while our own 767 f/o's were forced off the bottom to lower paying jobs. In the end part of one group advanced under the award while the other stagnates. It will take years more for me to find my old pre-merger position on our list. All the CRA pilots are leaps ahead of where they sat pre-merger now. The reverse is true of all the AC pilots hired after 1995. Welcome to Canadian justice. lk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Every single OCP pilot now earns substantially more as a result of this merger compared to what their pre-merger contract offered. Completely untrue......at Canadi>n we flew 75 hour blocks and got paid for training. When you do the math, for the guys that are earning more, it is because they ARE WORKING MORE and don't get me started about training for FREE. If you base our wages, on the hourly rate, the ex-Canadi>n Pilots took a pay cut. How do you like that logic? I'm OAC, my pre-merger partner from CAIL is now able to hold the A320 as a Captain while I can't even hold the right seat of the A320 at the same position I could prior to the merger six years after. Winfall gains all went to the OCP group. This tells me that you were still measuring you A/C service in months or possibly not even hired prior to the merger. Chances are you can hold an EMB left seat, not bad for your limited service time? Not one OAC pilot has seen their situation improved by the purchase of CAIL. Really.......I guess those A-340 F/O's in YVR, that got their first left seat on the B-767 (post merger) and are now in the top half of the Captains. Flying those ex-cp routes......no situational improvement? In that little eastern base OAC 320 Captains, who where light years away from the 767, can now hold it. So far 50+ OAC's have quit due to the Keller effect on their careers. Newsflash........ex-Canadi>n guys, with a lot more time in the pension plan, have quit as well. DOH would move me up 70+ numbers, I'm in....DOH would move me up about 400 numbers and 8 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Interesting thread. What seems to be missing in all of the 'wisdom' here is the realisation that this entire effort represents a collosal failure on all quadrants. Of course, those focussed on the money will declare themselves winners if they get more. Those who believe they lost in the deal will claim the moral high ground. Here's a news flash. There is no high ground left. I believe it was bombed out sometime early in the process. Forget the fact the for most the job is worse than it was before, morale is in the tank and employee concessions continue while the senior leadership are made multi-millionaires. And this is during a growth cycle. If these are the good times, how will you feel during the next down turn? Too much greed, too much self interest, next to no interest is leaving the 'other side' a shred of success with which to carry on. Shame on both sides for turning this into the kindergarten exercise that we have seen. I think that is the main reason the courts have been so eager to stay back. If justice were an absolute, there would have been an avenue. But neither side, from what I can see, has an appetite for the other's view of what is right. Why would a judge, essentially a civil servant, get dragged into this whirlpool? Why do the pilots rage when senior management ravages their pay and working conditions? EACH party in this program was prepared to do the same to each other. Live by the sword. 340 wall on one side, 'Mitchnick effect' overcorrection on the other. Silly tactics that have left a taint on the entire group. BTW, while the kids were fighting, the grown ups have cut themselves some pretty sweet deals, some very recently and not yet published, from what I see. And the money is coming from you. Keep it up.... The sooner the industry can turn a page on this sorry episode the better. Rant over Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Completely untrue......at Canadi>n we flew 75 hour blocks and got paid for training. When you do the math, for the guys that are earning more, it is because they ARE WORKING MORE and don't get me started about training for FREE. If you base our wages, on the hourly rate, the ex-Canadi>n Pilots took a pay cut. How do you like that logic? I do not consider that logic. Up until CCAA everybody at AC got paid for training, so where is the difference ?? 75 hour blocks ?? So What ?? A 75 hour block at AC would still leave you leaps and bounds ahead of your old CP contract because the hourly rates were significantly higher ( by about 20% or more in some cases if memory serves me correctly, that was after all the concessions YOU gave Benson etal to try and keep that thing afloat over there ). The haircut we all took was in part due to the merge and the subsequent events since then (Tech Bubble, 9-11. SARS), do not try and muddy the waters here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Too much greed, too much self interest, next to no interest is leaving the 'other side' a shred of success with which to carry on. Shame on both sides for turning this into the kindergarten exercise that we have seen. Good post, I have said it from day one of this fiasco, anything more than what you had before this started was GREED, nothing more and nothing less. DOH, BOTL, fences and the like were non-starters. AS it turns out DOH, would have been the lesser of the evil (my case) which has been handed down. Go figure, only in Canada you say, where the supposed losers of the battle actually win the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Your all the same. I have OCP and OAC friends and they both complain about what they have lost blah, blah, blah. Stop your complaining, work together and be gratefull that you have a good job. If you live in the past and think only about the "what could have been" you will never be happy in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest long keel Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Completely untrue......at Canadi>n we flew 75 hour blocks and got paid for training. When you do the math, for the guys that are earning more, it is because they ARE WORKING MORE and don't get me started about training for FREE. If you base our wages, on the hourly rate, the ex-Canadi>n Pilots took a pay cut. How do you like that logic? Take your 1999 T4 statement, and your 2004 T4. Mine is smaller, yours is larger. If you are working more it is because the company pilots had far more pilots than we did per machine. This aided the Keller ratios. Pre merger, you had 1 more 747, and 100 more pilots, not to mention no cruise pilots since you augmented with first officers. A pay cut means you earned less. You do not earn less now in real dollars than before. Cut the doublespeak. AIP made a clearer explanation than I, thanks AIP. This tells me that you were still measuring you A/C service in months or possibly not even hired prior to the merger. Chances are you can hold an EMB left seat, not bad for your limited service time? Wow, before the merger and I was less than 100 numbers from the DC9 left seat, and I could hold the 767 right seat with a block. Now six years later thanks to the purchase of CAIL and an unjust award I can't hold the 767 to the bottom. 400 OAC retirements and I'm still behind where I was the day the merger occured. As far as my service time goes is irrelavent. Pilots from CAIL with 1 week less service time than me are 400 numbers ahead. Really.......I guess those A-340 F/O's in YVR, that got their first left seat on the B-767 (post merger) and are now in the top half of the Captains. Flying those ex-cp routes......no situational improvement? In that little eastern base OAC 320 Captains, who where light years away from the 767, can now hold it. There were pilots who could hold the left seat 767 to the bottom with 11 years in 1999 who still can't get the aircraft today in YYZ. As far as YVR goes I have not followed what has happened to the left seat there as it is decades away from me. The CRA factor here makes the move for a junior OAC less desirable since it was a big base for CAIL and it was a smaller AC base. Newsflash........ex-Canadi>n guys, with a lot more time in the pension plan, have quit as well. Don't be so sure. We've had some fairly senior guys leave as well. However my wife won't try on the burka so the sandbox is out for us. I'm in....DOH would move me up about 400 numbers and 8 years! If the CAIL merger team had not insisted that their pilots merger time (1990) counted, and our groups didn't perhaps it could have happened. If they had simply dropped the 1990 bs we might both have seen doh rather than skewed ratios. Those guys won big time. I don't dispute what you claim about losses in numbers and years of service however you are further ahead on your T4 then I am despite your loss of numbers. I've lost twice. For you this merger has been closer to break even. For the CRA gang, it has been the lottery. For the junior OAC it has been a double loss. lk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 What's missing in this discussion is where has the ACAP money gone? They've raised over $1.5 million in the last 5 years. What has it been spent on? Kip, you know the players, ( perhaps you are still a member) maybe you can enlighten us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Homerun Give me a bit of time and I'll PM you ASAP with the answer, or at least be able to point you in the right direction.. regards, Kip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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