Belinda (the gambler!) crosses the floor!

[Guest rattler]

I totally agree and feel there should be a law or Parliamentary protocol which requires a vote in the riding should the elected member decide to change their affiliation.

Seems to be the same track as that followed by MPs who vote their conscience rather than how their constituents want. I guess in this case the MP in question voted with her conscience re the party she really wanted to be purchased by....

[FA@AC]

Hi FC@AC

I don't think it's simplistic. I believe that social conservatives well work to try and convince the population of their position just the same as social liberals. At the end of the day however, if they are unsuccessful, (as in the vote on abortion at the Conservative convention) it is accepted.

As for the US south; aren't you engaging in a little racial stereotyping of your own? As a matter of fact I happen to believe that your stereotyping is wrong, but even if you are correct it would be a national issue anyway.

The poll question was: Would you rather have an election this spring or after the Gomery report is tabled? (paraphrasing) If the question had been, would you rather have a vote after all of the Gomery testimony is complete or after Gomery files his report, then I believe that you would have seen a different result.

In actuality Harper doesn't claim to be a populist. That is where he and Manning had a falling out. He is not a big believer in referendums. (I don't agree with him on everything either. )

What do you do as leader of the opposition in this situation? The party that is in power has allowed large scale corruption to infiltrate it. The last 3 Liberal election campaigns have been partially funded with money stolen from the Canadian taxpayer. You have no confidence that the governing party will anywhere near fully investigate the corruption, nor do you believe that they will make the systemic changes to see that it doesn't happen again. If I were Stephen Harper I would fight tooth and nail to get the governing party out of office ASAP.

Greg

No, I don't think that I'm engaging in racial stereotyping at all, and I still think that it's terribly simplistic to state that the will of the majority should be the law of the land, full stop. There are a few places where slight majorities of the population believe that racial discrimination is just fine. If you're of the view that the will of the majority should automatically become the law of the land, then you might have to allow racial discrimination even though you oppose it yourself. What Mugabe is doing in Zimbabwe probably has the support of a slight majority of the population of that country. Adopt your position, and you have to permit what is happening there.

It just doesn't appear to me that Harper is acting in the best interests of his party. If he wishes to portray the party as being all about grassroots democracy and so forth, then he ought to listen to the majority of the population who answered in the negative when they were polled on whether they want an election now--however the question was worded. I'm sure, by the way, that the question was worded differently in different polls. By ignoring what seems to be the will of the majority on this one, he gives the impression that he's acting out of pure self-interest and that his attempt to grab power now is about his being afraid to wait for Gomery's findings because he fears that Gomery's report will exonerate Martin and those Liberals who are now in government.

[Dork]

When does the big Govt announcment come for daddy's company?

[Guest rattler]

Here is your chance to voice your opinion on an CTV Website re the defection....

CTV

[GDR]

No, I don't think that I'm engaging in racial stereotyping at all, and I still think that it's terribly simplistic to state that the will of the majority should be the law of the land, full stop. There are a few places where slight majorities of the population believe that racial discrimination is just fine. If you're of the view that the will of the majority should automatically become the law of the land, then you might have to allow racial discrimination even though you oppose it yourself. What Mugabe is doing in Zimbabwe probably has the support of a slight majority of the population of that country. Adopt your position, and you have to permit what is happening there.

It just doesn't appear to me that Harper is acting in the best interests of his party. If he wishes to portray the party as being all about grassroots democracy and so forth, then he ought to listen to the majority of the population who answered in the negative when they were polled on whether they want an election now--however the question was worded. I'm sure, by the way, that the question was worded differently in different polls. By ignoring what seems to be the will of the majority on this one, he gives the impression that he's acting out of pure self-interest and that his attempt to grab power now is about his being afraid to wait for Gomery's findings because he fears that Gomery's report will exonerate Martin and those Liberals who are now in government.

When I say that the laws of the land should reflect the views of the majority of the population I'm talking about Canada. In the end it comes down to the a majority of some group, and I personally trust the views of 30 million Canadians more than I do the majority view of 308 MPs. As we witnessed today MPs can be bought off.

As I have stated before the Gomery report will not be able to include in its report any conclusion or recommendation about anything that would pertain to a possible civil or a criminal court case. Canadians are going to have to form their own opinions as to who if anyone bears responsibility.

http://www.gomery.ca/en/termsofreference/

I saw several polls on when to call an election and not one poll asked how many wanted an election when the Gomery testimony was finished.

Greg

[sustainable]

Winston Churchill crossed the floor... twice!

He was long the voice of a dissonant.

How long was he an MP for?

My own MP has been a Reform MP, an Alliance MP and is now a Liberal MP. He keeps on getting elected because he works his a$$ off.

[FA@AC]

I saw several polls on when to call an election and not one poll asked how many wanted an election when the Gomery testimony was finished.

Greg

Do you then think that most of the population supports the Conservative effort to bring the government down now and to have an election in late June?

Some of the pundits are speculating today that having looked at the most recent polls, the Conservatives probably now hope that the government isn't brought down on Thu after all. To what would you attribute that? Are you comfortable with the way Harper has played this?

[GDR]

Do you then think that most of the population supports the Conservative effort to bring the government down now and to have an election in late June?

Some of the pundits are speculating today that having looked at the most recent polls, the Conservatives probably now hope that the government isn't brought down on Thu after all. To what would you attribute that? Are you comfortable with the way Harper has played this?

I frankly don't know where the majority of Canadians stand on the issue now.

The polls are all over the place and polls at the beginning of a campaign seldom look like the end result. Frankly I don't much care about the polls because the right thing is the right thing regardless of what the polls say.

I haven't always agreed with the Stephen has handled this, but I do agree that the sooner this Liberal government can be replaced the better off this country will be.

[FA@AC]

The polls are all over the place and polls at the beginning of a campaign seldom look like the end result. Frankly I don't much care about the polls because the right thing is the right thing regardless of what the polls say.

I'm interested in your opinion, Greg, and--honest!!--I'm not responding to your posts just to attempt to give you a hard time. Haven't you just sort of contradicted yourself, though? On the one hand, if I understood you correctly, you argued that the will of the majority ought to determine what policies/laws are enacted. On the other, you say that you don't much care about the opinion of the majority (i.e. the polls), and that what is right is right regardless.

[GDR]

I'm interested in your opinion, Greg, and--honest!!--I'm not responding to your posts just to attempt to give you a hard time. Haven't you just sort of contradicted yourself, though? On the one hand, if I understood you correctly, you argued that the will of the majority ought to determine what policies/laws are enacted. On the other, you say that you don't much care about the opinion of the majority (i.e. the polls), and that what is right is right regardless.

The polls that we are talking about are only telling us what party people support today. The Liberals have about 30%. I don't see how you can translate that into the majority of Canadians not wanting an election.

In the majority of cases it should be up to our elected MPs to decide how to govern. I don't expect every issue to be a referendum. I just believe that judicious use of referendums, as we are seeing today in BC, is a good thing. I believe that those referendums should nearly always be held in conjunction with an election.

As to our current situation, I feel it is up to the politicians.

Thanks for the posts FC@AC. This is a critical time in our country and it is important that we are able to have civil debate like this on the subject.

Greg

[FA@AC]

Thanks for the posts FC@AC.

Thanks for yours.

[Kid]

Winston Churchill crossed the floor... twice!

He was long the voice of a dissonant.

How long was he an MP for?

It is a pretty long stretch to compare this bimbo with Sir Winston Churchill.

[Guest rattler]

The polls that we are talking about are only telling us what party people support today. The Liberals have about 30%. I don't see how you can translate that into the majority of Canadians not wanting an election.

In the majority of cases it should be up to our elected MPs to decide how to govern. I don't expect every issue to be a referendum. I just believe that judicious use of referendums, as we are seeing today in BC, is a good thing. I believe that those referendums should nearly always be held in conjunction with an election.

As to our current situation, I feel it is up to the politicians.

Thanks for the posts FC@AC. This is a critical time in our country and it is important that we are able to have civil debate like this on the subject.

Greg

According to CTV tonight, the Liberals now have over 43% support in Ontario and that means once again they will take the majority of the seats there. Apparently folks in Ontario will not jump onto the conservative bandwagon. Too bad but I guess that is what our Democracy is all about. Too bad we can not adopt, on a federal level, the new proportional electoral system proposed in BC.

It will be interesting to see if it is voted into effect tonight...

STV

[FA@AC]

According to CTV tonight, the Liberals now have over 43% support in Ontario and that means once again they will take the majority of the seats there. Apparently folks in Ontario will not jump onto the conservative bandwagon. Too bad but I guess that is what our Democracy is all about.

The Conservative mad as hell routine hasn't sold in Ont. For the life of me, I can't understand why the Conservatives have been so hot to trot on having an election right away. If Gomery ends up in any way tainting the current government with the sponsorship mess, the Conservatives could well end up taking Ont and perhaps even winning a majority, but people here (and I think in most of the country) just don't want an election until the report is out. Belinda, while not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, seems to get that. Too bad that Harper doesn't.

[deicer]

It is a pretty long stretch to compare this bimbo with Sir Winston Churchill.

If you want to extrapolate that line of thinking, how long will it be until it comes out that Daddy contributed significantly to the Liberal coffers?

Maybe he is pushing his little one in this direction because he knows that her chances of becoming Prime Minister are slim to none with the Conservatives, but in the east, where Magna is a huge presence, he can have some sway on the outcome of her running for the leadership of the Liberal party after Martin is done. And doesn't every {rich} parent want to see their child do well?

I think that you will see Belinda working to consolidate power around herself, and in the next Liberal leadership convention, she will be a front runner. Her chances will be greatly aided if Hillary does well in 3 years south of the border.....

We live in interesting times.

Iceman

[Mitch Cronin]

The Conservative mad as hell routine hasn't sold in Ont. For the life of me, I can't understand why the Conservatives have been so hot to trot on having an election right away. If Gomery ends up in any way tainting the current government with the sponsorship mess, the Conservatives could well end up taking Ont and perhaps even winning a majority, but people here (and I think in most of the country) just don't want an election until the report is out. Belinda, while not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, seems to get that. Too bad that Harper doesn't.

Hmmm... I'm not sure who you're seeing that isn't "mad as hell" here in Ontario, but I'd guess they've been asleep if so.... Anyone I know who's even half paid attention is indeed mad as hell and wants to see this government shown the door at the end of a steel toed boot! ASAP!

Think for a moment about what exactly there is to be mad about.... Our trusted, elected representatives have been caught stealing from the till... FROM OUR WALLETS! ...for their own gain. .....and more...

Corruption can't be dealt with by saying "ok, we caught you, now stop it". What are we that stupid we'd believe them when they say, "ok, we'll stop now"? Horse puckies! The door! That's it, ...they're done! No more! They gotta go! Every minute they stay gets them more opportunities to lie/cheat/steal/cover up even more of their wrongdoing.

That they still remain as our government is an incredible injustice, and insult!

Your words here: "If Gomery ends up in any way tainting the current government with the sponsorship mess", are telling... Gomery won't be "tainting" a dang thing! It's the testimony that's come from their own mouths that have shredded any semblance of decency within this government! "Tainted"? Good grief, if that's "tainted" I don't want to see poisoned! It's not just a "sponsorship mess"... it's theft! They've taken OUR money and thrown it in directions that would suit their needs, regardless of trust, regardless of law, regardless of right... including funneling it right back into their own bloody pockets! ...and that's only what we've found out about!! How much more inappropriate, illegal, or outright wrong has been committed by these bandits that we haven't found out about is anyone's guess... and we can certainly no longer give them any benefit of the doubt!

THE DOOR!!

As for Belinda... I do believe I saw right into her, last night on the news... as she said, "Look, I've been given an opportunity here...." It wasn't just the words... it was the look in her eye as she said it... pure self.... the look of a narcissist who expects everyone to understand that point of view. That's enough for me... Yep, hasn't she been given an opportunity! She needs that boot aimed at her sorry a$$ too!

[Steam Driven]

Mitch, thank you for putting my words to print so succinctly.

I believe there are a great many more people - not just in the West - who feel as you and I do as opposed to FA@AC. In public we Canadians are extremely tolerant and forgiving, but in our living rooms we ARE mad as hell and I don't believe we are going to take it anymore...

As for Belinda, I see an opportunist and I hope the rest of the country sees her for what she is. Sold for a price, her ambition will be her undoing.

[GDR]

As long as the Liberals stay in government nothing will change. Remember Paul Martin's pledge to clean things up?

Gomery: law-breakers don't suffer consequences

Brian Daly

Canadian Press

Tuesday, May 17, 2005

MONTREAL -- Justice John Gomery said Tuesday that some bureaucrats who "disregard the law" through mismanagement don't appear to suffer any consequences such as losing their jobs.

Gomery told a Treasury Board official at the sponsorship inquiry he couldn't find any evidence in the Financial Administration Act allowing managers to weed out bad seeds in the bureaucracy.

"Sometimes you get people who just, more or less deliberately, disregard the law,'' the judge told Stephen Wallace, a top official at the Treasury Board secretariat.

"There have been, it seems to me, well-documented instances of mismanagement ... and I didn't see that they had any consequences on the employment of anybody.

"What happens if you find somebody who's just a bad apple?''

Wallace said managers in fact have the power to suspend, demote or fire employees who break internal rules.

But he acknowledged that power isn't always exercised.

"Consistent understanding and ability to use these tools is not evident across the system.''

Wallace added police and the courts, not internal rules, are best-equipped to deal with bureaucrats who cross the line and break the law.

But Gomery didn't appear satisfied.

"It takes a major scandal to get the police involved,'' he said. "It is not in the nature of the public service to call in the police.''

Chuck Guite, who ran the sponsorship program in the late 1990s, was charged with six fraud-related counts related to the program but only after Auditor General Sheila Fraser referred several suspicious files to the RCMP. By that time, he had retired.

The Mounties allege Guite and Groupaction president Jean Brault defrauded taxpayers of almost $2 million through the sponsorship program. That includes the alleged forgery of at least one bogus contract for $330,000. Their joint trial will begin in October.

Wallace said it's not clear to him just how many bureaucrats are suspended or turfed out for wrongdoing, because the information is complied on a department-by-department basis.

"Because it's being done at a decentralized level, it's tough to get that picture.''

Wallace was among a panel of public-service managers who appeared before Gomery to explain what has changed in government since Prime Minister Paul Martin shut down the scandal-plagued sponsorship program in 2003.

The responses were mixed.

Wallace said plans are in the works for tighter financial controls, better training for managers with signing authority as well as more detailed audits.

But government-wide training courses, including those ensuring bureaucrats know the law, have yet to be implemented, said Wallace.

Public Works official Richard Robesco, who oversees 450 government ad contracts, told the inquiry that training measures in his department haven't been updated recently.

[handyman]

Oh but Mitch, these people don't care if the Government steals their money...just don't try and Govern them with a Christian values.

I believe it is true that the majority of the strong Harper critics are so afraid of anything to do with Christian values that they would rather lose everything before they would ever allow a Christian leader to govern them.

[Mitch Cronin]

I don't agree with that at all Cpdude... I think that other falla, Stockwell Day, who seemed a bit "extremely" Christian (to the point where it was pretty clear that he was going to mix religion with his politics), did indeed scare people... including some who call themselves Christians... But not Harper.

You know... I said it when the Conservatives picked Harper for their leader... they weren't seeing the distaste for him from this part of the country... They blew it.

But this isn't about Harper vs. Martin! ...and it sure isn't about Christian vs. non-Christian... it's now ALL about disposing of, axing, firing, escorting out of the building... the crooks who currently hold the reins!

I'll go out on a limb and say that I reckon the Green Party is going to do rather well in the next election.... whenever it does come.

[AME]

"Sometimes you get people who just, more or less deliberately, disregard the law,"

I love this quote, if this isn't evidence of a two tiered justice system I don't know what is

[GDR]

I first met Stephen Harper in 1990 when he was a guest speaker for a meeting I was organizing when I lived in Oakville. I spoke to him again when I was working for the No side during the Charlottetown Accord again in Oakville. I have spoken to him several times while he was running for the leadership of the party, and at a couple of rallies since.

I don't even know if he goes to church. This isn't about Christianity it is about what is right and what is wrong. What the Liberal Party of Canada has done, and allowed to be done, is just dead wrong.

The question is, are we so cynical and accepting of low morality in government that we aren't too bothered, and maybe just accept the argument that they're all crooks. I don't buy that argument. MPs are just like the rest of us with our strong points and our weaknesses, and that is true in all of the parties.

I am not saying that all Liberals are crooks, but I am saying that the Liberal Party of Canada has allowed crooks to infiltrate their party, and because they are in government they have allowed crooks to infiltrate the government of Canada. They have also demonstrated an inability to clean out the system and I also contend that they won't do it in the future because of the political fallout that would ensue.

This country needs a new government that is not a risk politically to form government and exorcise the rot.

Greg

[handyman]

it's now ALL about disposing of, axing, firing, escorting out of the building... the crooks who currently hold the reins!

I totally agree with you Mitch but why else would there still be such a strong Liberal following?

[Mitch Cronin]

I totally agree with you Mitch but why else would there still be such a strong Liberal following?

I suspect there are still MANY who haven't been paying attention. Sadly, we have gotten used to scandal and deceit in our political system. People are bored with it. They have their views, right leaning or left leaning, ...they assume all politicians are as deceitful as the rest, when it comes to what they say in public.... so they answer tho polls with that in mind... but they don't know the depth of the corruption within the Liberal party that's now becoming evident.

The media can very likely shoulder a great part of that blame... Yep, they're telling the stories, but you don't see it splashed on the front page in huge bold print that trashes the Liberals in one partial phrase... like you see "Tories unleash attack ads" for instance.

FA@AC shows it all... "If Gomery ends up in any way tainting the current government with the sponsorship mess[...]"

"If, Cpdude... "IF" ... "in any way"... Obviously some of us have heard enough, and others haven't heard the half of it.

I had a discussion with some guys at work about this... "Ya, but they're all bad" said a few... Not one of them had even the slight degree of awareness that I do regarding the corruption, and I'm not much for politics at all! I haven't seen our local trash rag, "The SUN" in a while, but when it's splattered on the front page of that, in plain - any-jock-can-understand-it-English, that'll be when Joe Public knows it. Then the poll results will change.

[CD]

MPs are just like the rest of us with our strong points and our weaknesses, and that is true in all of the parties.

I think that this is an important distinction for the way the many people vote. Personally, I don't usually care what "party" a candidate represents and have in the past been capably represented by Liberal, Progressive Conservative and New Democrat MP's.

I am more interested in their individual ability to represent the needs and concerns of my riding the best way that they can. Basically, they are applying for a job and before they get it, they need to pass the interview and reference checks. Being an equal opportunity employer, the political affiliation of the candidate is not one of the most important aspects of their background - but their own honesty and integrity are very important and must be demonstrated and maintained.