A promise to the Liberals:

[Mitch Cronin]

If AC fails, I hereby swear I will NOT vote Liberal. Got it? Good.

You guys OWN this mess.... you created it, you fiddled with it... you ignored it... you OWN IT!

If it "tanks", kiss your jobs goodbye too.

[flybye]

If AC gets bailed out with federal money, I hereby swear I will NOT vote Liberal. Got it? Good.

It's debateable about who owns, it who created it, who's now making a bad situation worse, etc., but throwing good money after bad just to see the mgmt./unions screw up ALL of a bailout and see AC right back in CCAA in 1-2 years is NOT a solution.

FIX the problem, don't prolong it!

If it gets "bailed out" kiss your jobs goodbye too!

[conehead]

It's necessary for the Feds to throw money at Air Canada to ensure their survival. They might just change some CCAA laws, allowing the court to throw out the Collective Agreements.

That's all it would take. And I agree with Mitch. Everyone concerned should be on the phone to your local M.P. (who is most likely a Liberal).

[conehead]

Sorry, meant to say it's NOT necessary.

[flybye]

Thanks! You scared me.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I don't think that would be very fair to the labour groups. If any company ever got into tough times they could just go CCAA and throw out all their contracts. I don't think the rank and file workers would care for that too much, not to mention what it would do to morale. Now if they were suspended for a set period of time???

[Frosty]

What do you think they want to happen!

They want to have the rules changed so that contracts CAN be thrown out. Every company that has a unionized workforce should be scared right now . Look at Stelco they are next for getting screwed, the judge rulled them insolvent , even though the assets outweigh the liabilities. Every CEO in Canada is rubbing their hands together in hopes that the feds do step in and throw out AC's contracts, so they can skip down the path and say ohhhh look we need to throw out the contracts to survive.

The bloodletting is just about to start!

[Don Hudson]

Mitch;

How about 25,000 to 30,000 employees marching on Parliament Hill should the Liberals walk away from their mess?

Do they think that employees would stand idly by, especially those in Quebec and Ontario, the Liberal's power base?

[Don Hudson]

Mitch;

To heck with voting...that's a given. How about 25,000 to 30,000 employees marching on Parliament Hill should the Liberals walk away from their mess?

Do they think that employees would stand idly by, especially those in Quebec and Ontario, the Liberal's power base?

[chockalicious]

I am not sure a march on Parliament Hill would really be all that effective. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people have the perception that working for AC is not that far off from having a civil service type of job with the same type of benfits.

What is the % of unionized workforce in the country anyway? Does the public really have that much empathy with the union movement and it's perceived cronyism and nepotism.

In B.C. there was not a whole lot of sympathy towards the workers at BC Ferries when they went on strike. I think this same type of sentiment would be extended to AC employees.

[Stickle]

First of all who are you going to vote for, Stephen Harper. I think not. I would love to see a change in government as well but only by a truly national party of which we have two right now, the Liberals and the NDP. No matter which way you slice it the Conservatives are a regional party. They took the Alliance which was predominantly western based and changed the name.

Does the government really own this problem. Again, I think not. Was there some back room dealings between Gerry and the Liberals, I’m almost certain of that. They got the government to lift the restrictions so they could do what they had to. The real owner of “this” problem, IMO, is RM and the board of directors at the time that this whole thing transpired. They wanted to win at any cost (and they did). I think that the undoing of this is the 3-odd billion dollars of debt that was added to the balance sheet. That wasn’t Gerry’s doing. Would things be any different today if Gerry had won, probably. The BOD was not vigilant enough in monitoring the job that our senior execs were doing, if you know anything about ONEX you know that they would have played a more significant role. We would be in a different res system, a different alliance and we probably wouldn’t be in CCAA. It's just way too easy to blame the government.

How the h3ll do we get out of this mess. I don’t know if we do. It’s going to hurt and hurt a lot. The unions are going to have to at least talk with the company. Standing firm and say there is nothing more that can be done is just plain wrong. I don’t think that are very many that would like to see this thing “tank” but if it does we are going to have to point fingers at more than just the government. Who knows, maybe they will come to our aid, a decision which I believe to be wrong. Maybe they will get some of them fancy MBA types to do an analysis to see whether it is better to give now than later in EI benefits.

This company was in trouble long before 9/11. They did very little to stop the bleeding. Now the reasons are 9/11, SARS, Gulf War, basically anything except looking inwardly and fixing the problems.

It is time for everyone to get off their ideological high horse and sit down and talk. If they don’t we can stand in line at EI saying “Man, am I glad we stood our ground on that one”.

Flame away

[sambucca]

Don : "their mess". You have got to be kidding me! I think you have inadvertantly hit the nail on the head with that statement. Until the employees of Air Canada realize that it is their very own mess to clean up , regardless of whose fault it is , they havn't got a chance. Time to roll up the sleeves and get to work instead of depending on the government to open up vault. I realize that there have been many givebacks and everyone is hurting to some extent but the reality of the situation is that it is not enough. The Unions disagree. Fine , just don't come knocking on the Canadian taxpayers door to make up the difference. Stand on your own two feet. Do what needs to be done.

[B75/76]

"Everyone concerned should be on the phone to your local M.P. (who is most likely a Liberal)."

From past experience (C3000) calling/writing your MP is therapeutic but largely ineffective. The only thing I and anyone I spoke with from C3 received as a response was the same form reply.

Unfortunately, AC' employees, while significant in pure numbers, are scattered across many ridings. To give effective pressure would require enough votes in one riding (ideally a high ranking Liberal) to jeopardize that persons re-election hopes. A handful of votes in each riding will not sway the result. IMHO

Writing/calling makes one feel good, but largely has zero effect.

[sustainable]

So, aside from using the term as a lighnting rod for all that you see is wrong with management, what exactly do you have against someone with an MBA?

Just curious

[Don Hudson]

Sambucca;

Re "Time to roll up the sleeves and get to work instead of depending on the government to open up vault."

I agree with you completely. Its entirely up to us as Air Canada employees and not to rely upon any government handout at all.

The difference is a subtle one.

My comment was generated in recognition of the history of this mess, and that the government has not been a non-involved partner in creating this disaster. The history of that "invisibile" hand goes back long before the days of privatization in 1988. Surely it must be recognized that Collenette's stupid and incompetent handling of this industry must somehow enter into the discussion in any business failure?

So, not a "hand-out" but some consideration for the mess they are indeed responsible for and which has been entirely beyond the control of employees.

However, I recognize too, that such a view will not have support and would be portrayed as yet another taxpayer bailout of a corporation that certainly doesn't deserve it. Far be it from those at Air Canada to expect the same treatment as Bombardier, CNN and dozens of other welfare cases, forgiving even those now coming to light under the Sponsorship matter. We are certainly a different, non-related case than those poor besetupon souls I'm sure.

[Stickle]

We have too many of these types that have not paid their dues, so to speak. If we are to higher people with these types of degrees the first thing that we should do with them is throw them at the customer. Let them spend some time filling out lost baggage reports, dealing in customer relations, anything that deals directly with the customer.

If they had done this type of work then they can put the customer in perspective in their decision making while performing their management duties. We have alot of employees in management that are making decisions for the customer without ever having to deal with one.

[Don Hudson]

chockalicious;

Yes...understand and agree with your assessment. That view of Air Canada has little basis in reality but its the perception of the public, such perceptions having been almost exclusively created by a hostile media, though at times we seem to help them along a bit.

[Guest bigdig]

''First of all who are you going to vote for, Stephen Harper........''

I would vote for Stephen Harper.

The paragraph that you wrote is so full of Liberal propaganda and misrepresentations it almost made me ignore the remainder of your post. Oddly, i agreedwith most of the rest of your post.

But to state that the Liberals and NDP are the only 2 real national parties is absurd. If the conservatives are a regional western based party, then the Liberals are a regional eastern based party. Isn't Harper from Ontario? To even suggest that the NDP are a valid national party is patently absurd. They are a party destined for obscurity or a dramatic alteration of party policy.

I don't have the figures but I would bet that the new conservatives have more widespread support than the Liberals did in the last election if one considers the support for both the old reform and conservative party. Times are changing anyways, there is much more support for Harper and the new conservatives in Ontario than ever before. I predict that they will make major inroads in Ontario in the next election.

And even if you are correct in your assumption that the NDP and Liberals are the only true national parties then does that make it a mistake to vote outside those parameters? Obviously not.

[sambucca]

Don Re:BBD.B and CNR , I couldn't agree with you more. Should'nt have happened , but I guess that's politics. The AC situation will have its own political flavor but I think the winds are blowing the wrong way this time around.

Believe me , the last thing I want to see is for AC to go down the tubes but it is frustrating to watch the unions stonewall a useful and realistic solution to the pension problem for the sake of principle. Reminds me of the EPA strike years ago and everyone knows where that got them. My sense is that the general AC employee is willing to do what is needed to save their company. Here's to hoping the unions will let them...

[sustainable]

So what you are saying is, that you have observed that it is Air Canada's practice to hire MBA graduates with no other experience than their education, and that these "hires" are sufficiently shrewd enough to convince the person "hiring" them to place them in positions of authority over employees in customer sevice positions, without having any customer service experience themselves. I didn't think any sort of new "hire" would have that sort of pull. Perhaps though, it is the incumbent management in the "higher" position placing these MBA's who you should be targetting. Really, I don't see the correlation between having the degree and a customer perspecive or lack, thereof.

I do however see the results of many decisions made by managers who have a long history of dues paying in one department/silo, making decisions that have a profoundly negative effect upon the front line staff of another department. I also know for sure that these managers do not have advanced degrees. Ultimately it is not the letters behind the name that makes for a good decision maker but rather the person behind the name.

You would be "a lot" farther ahead if you were to question and analyse the logic of how said manager's performance was measured and see if that correlates to any sort of positive impact on ROI than you are to slag someone because they chose to spend some time gaining a more global perspecitve. Having an MBA doesn't necessarily make you a better manager, but it doesn't make you any worse either.

Lastly, dues paying is for unionized members of the workforce. Once you're in management, it is the people you report to that decide if your dues are paid. Once you reach the top job, the BoD should make those assessments. Unfortunately that is rareley the case in North American corporations. Your comment in that regard smacks of sour grapes.

[vanishing point]

I have a question for those who follow US corporations in Chapter 11 (similar to our CCAA?): as I understand it, contracts can be opened up in this event; does anyone know if this has helped or hindered a US company? Just curious.

As for government bailouts; as mentioned in the other threads here, why should AC be bailed out? Please read the question as legitimate, no sarcasm intended.

[Guest WA777]

You are not considering the facts...AC was forced by government pressure to buy CAIL...the government also created the infamous GTAA......I expect WJ will be coerced into picking up some of the pieces of AC....frankly I would say they created quite a mess.

[Guest AME]

Don

How are they going to get there?? I don't think Greyhound and Via combined have that many seats available :D

Brett

[Don Hudson]

Sambucca;

Re "Here's to hoping the unions will let them...",

The fat lady hasn't even left the hotel yet. These things always have a way of coming to terms and I don't think this will be any different. No one wants this enterprise to fail, so getting there will happen. What "success" looks like and how ugly the baby is, is anyone's guess.

Re "I guess that's politics."

Somehow that statement just seems to dismiss the incessant anguish on employees and families that past and present governments have dealt this industry. While it may be okay for the few, those who have been in this industry for a few decades and lived with horror after horror of government interventions cannot come even close to forgiving these circumstances by saying, "its just politics". Sorry, but its a bit akin to being on the platform and saying, ach...its just the rope.

Don

[sambucca]

Don : Having been around for a few years I have shared the pain too. I guess one becomes cynical after awhile. Calling ones MP for example-talk about pissing into the wind. My point was and is , put the past behind , get out of CCAA , and live to fight another day.

[Guest leopardone]