ChicoChico Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 ...only about three hundred $million times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exGXer Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 "On the other hand, the lawsuit could go away if ACPA decided to settle out of court" Hmmm, Rob that might not be as funny as you think, you just never know eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Its probably just be me but I cannot help sense a little bit of something.. Can I ask you what your vision is for the flying of the proposed 50 to 110 [and larger perhaps] seat aircraft, on the eve of the purchase announcement. May help to clear up a few things. Not intending a negative debate, just wondering…? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Many Jazz members want to talk and work this out as well, but feel that this lawsuit is like a gun held to their career's as well. Our union members have stated that this lawsuit was not brought on by the Jazz MEC APLA so they want it to run it's natural course. So how can we go forward from here? The union has nothing to do with the AO lawsuit, our management doesn't care, over 1200 pilots from Jazz are not involved. What do we do? I am at a point now that if this is affecting my career in a negative way then where can I send some monetary support in the ACPA organization to help their cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 How long have you been "fighting the battle"? If you so desperately wanted to be "mainline", why didn't you apply? Oh. You did. Unsuccessful, right? So...thought you'd walk over the bodies of those who fought earlier battles? When will you guys understand? Don't you realize that 10 years agoo, other pilots similarly situated were buying into the same stories? When it suited their purposes, AC pilots were voting MEC by MEC...get on with the merger!!! When it appeared that other means were available to secure their employment....."to hell with merger"!! Nothing has changed except the date.....Jazz or AO or Air Nova...they are "grist for the mill"...a source of pilots, possibly, when needed and otherwise a safety net for junior AC pilots who need a place to work until the layoff is rescinded. Take the time...read the material...and understand that your job security demands that you appreciate that Jazz is your employer and it "is what it is"...if you want or need more then quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz2 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 You can start by posting your name on the ALPA site, so we can then vote on taking away your union number, then you are free to donate to any charity, union of your choice, if only you were in managment it would make some much more gratifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Dragon, I pointed this out a long time ago and we debated (politely) on 'IF' ALPA had actually called ACPA. You claimed information offered a local ACPA rep that there was no such dialogue, no call, and asked me to question their honesty. Here we are now, your MEC has reluctantly offered that ALPA did in fact make contact...finally. How is one to mend any fences, or even talk, when it takes this long to get a response? It’s sad when the only means for our two sides to hash out differences is the AEF. Even Israel and Palestine have a lot more venues to talk. Regards, Eternally Frustrated PortTack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 To be honest with a little over 25 years left in this industry and having spent almost seven in the regional's what I want is the best for my career and my family. I am tired of the constant fighting back and forth, back and forth. I really could care less what my hat badge says, and I know that I am not alone on that one . Can I ask you this what happens if the mainline is successful in their "Jets R Us " campaign then what? So the reality that you will soon learn is, that although we are in CCAA politics still plays a very heavy hand in this process. Please remember this post in the upcoming weeks or months and ask yourself "was it worth it" ? Just don't hold your breath, we wouldn't want to lose a good diehard. "...if you want or need more then quit." ........need more you ask?...with two kids, living in Toronto on a 40,000 dollar F/O's wage you have the audacity to question why I might want more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 To be honest with a little over 25 years left in this industry and having spent almost seven in the regional's what I want is the best for my career and my family. I am tired of the constant fighting back and forth, back and forth. I really could care less what my hat badge says, and I know that I am not alone on that one . Can I ask you this what happens if the mainline is successful in their "Jets R Us " campaign then what? So the reality that you will soon learn is, that although we are in CCAA politics still plays a very heavy hand in this process. Please remember this post in the upcoming weeks or months and ask yourself "was it worth it" ? Just don't hold your breath, we wouldn't want to lose a good diehard. "...if you want or need more then quit." ........need more you ask?...with two kids, living in Toronto on a 40,000 dollar F/O's wage you have the audacity to question why I might want more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 UD, Instead of demeaning your colleague publicly, all the while hiding behind your anonymity, why not encourage your MEC to make available choices to the membership? Is that not what your association is built on? Why attempt to foist your personal agenda on another member.. you sound a lot like Rod and Dave and the rest of that group used to tell me and others back in 1995. Give it a rest already. .70 is right, should things not go well with the new airplanes, there will be a lot of new anger directed toward Steve and Nick. Why not take the opportunity to channel the energy into some forward movement? Get out of the past man, . . Try something new over there . . respect the wishes of the majority, pressure your MEC to pursue resolution in a public manner. What are you and those who share your view afraid of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Hello again Port Tack, I have to be careful here [and perhaps rightly so] as I must respect the confidentiality of internal ACPA documents.. my apologies if I seem vague. We did discuss 'who said what to whom' as you say. To clarify, my MEC has indicated that all contact with the Jazz MEC was conducted the days following September 08, 2003 for what that’s worth.. Someone smarter than I will need to find a way to pressure the principles of both sides into open and accountable, public debate. Somehow . . our challenge needs to arrive at the membership to decide the future direction. Otherwise, as you say, we are left to the AEF and that’s not going to do it I'm afraid. BTW, what I told you, [the conversation with my LEC] was the truth.. now of course the question remains, was I told the truth?.. cheers comrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyBlazer Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 You Man are the reason that this cant be ended, it is your mentality that chokes the very hope of successful talks. Proud of yourself? SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SARP Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Give your head a shake man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I guess the saga will continue, Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Gapper Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Your working conditions and pay scale have not changed drastically toward the negative in the last 7 years, therefore you voluntarily accepted these conditions when you accepted the job offer, it was your choice, any presumptions made about further career aspirations at seperate companies were the just that, presumptions Do I like the lawsuit? NO But it is the industry as a whole that has reduced our standard of living as pilot's and not this lawsuit. I've got bigger issue's with my MEC than flow through, like why is an FO's starting wage still less then 40K? Do we really think that the next guy to get hired here is worth less than that, he's probably going to have +5000 hrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 It is only HATE and REVENGE which keeps driving the AO lawsuit on and on....as long as the claimants continue to push it forward the voices of reason and sanity will be forced to remain silent...unfortunately reasonable people like you are getting caught in the attack...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 If it's "only HATE and REVENGE which keeps driving the AO lawsuit on and on" then it's only HATE and GREED that drove the AC pilots to renege on the merger agreement in the first place. Nothing wrong with greed as long as you're honest enough to admit it. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 If it's "only HATE and REVENGE which keeps driving the AO lawsuit on and on" then it's only HATE and GREED that drove the AC pilots to renege on the merger agreement in the first place. Nothing wrong with greed as long as you're honest enough to admit it. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Quote: "then it's only HATE and GREED that drove the AC pilots to renege on the merger agreement" I don't exactly see how hate and greed factors into a situation where AC pilots were only interested in protecting their own jobs from those who were not entitled to them....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Who initiated the merger procedure? Who reneged on binding arbitration? Who snuck out the backdoor? Everytime this thread comes up someone, usually you, will say that the lawsuit is the roadblock to some sort of resolution to this situation. The lawsuit is less of an injustice to the AC pilots than the action that precipitated it is to the regional pilots. You want the lawsuit to go away? Here's how you could increase the likelihood of that happening: take responsibility for ducking out on Picher and offer to make it right. I bet the lawsuit would disappear. Take a look at what caused the lawsuit. Cause and effect, my friend. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Assaf Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Man, if I had a crystal ball, and knew how to operate it, I wouldn't waste it guessing what will happen with the fleet deployment. I'd use it to summon the super 7 numbers for next fridays draw! Besides, we as employees/union members don't get to decide anything, we can just tell the creditors what we have to offer as employees. I'd hazard a GUESS that Jazz will still exist, AC mainline will still exist, Tango brand will be absorbed into the mainline, Zip?.... Jazz will be larger than it is today, not right away perhaps, but Jazz will play a larger role in the AC system, my guess would be going from 90+ frames now to eventually between 150 and 175 frames. This will come about because of lower costs with the Jazz operation overall, pilot wages being but a small part. Jazz will not operate airbus types. Mainline will be airbus 319-340 and the 767's. 747's will eventually be either retired or they will have to get more of them to make running the type economically worth while. Overall, number of mainline frames will reduce with the 737 retirement and just not getting as many bus's to replace them. Large number of Mainline pilot retirements will make this program SOMEWHAT easier to take but not entirely. Nobody likes to get smaller, even IF attrition takes care of most of the reduction. Mainline could eventually grow, I'm talking a decade away, if traffic levels overseas and long haul transcon warrant. This is purely a funtion of the economy, not only in Canada but worldwide. Zip is a wild card because while it was created to compete on an economic scale with WJ, this just does not happen. So will it continue? And if so why? Make the mainline/jazz combo a viable alternative for the current WJ customer by offering something different and better than they can get at WJ. Offer more frequency, more destinations, ability to collect miles to use to those destinations, different classes of travel available to those who wish to pay more to get more and basic bare bones travel for those on the budget. But what do I know, I'm just a pilot! But is is fun to guess. Now, time to devote full attention to colored screen showing 1 mile oval with fast cars. Cheers, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 As long as you continue to blame ACPA and AC for all your problems, without taking a good look at youselves, there cannot be a solution...at least some ACPA members would be willing, under the right conditions, to try and find a solution....for you it is only TOTAL victory and the destruction of ACPA.......truly sad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I seek neither total victory nor the destruction of ACPA. I am merely responding to your wistful suggestion that if only the lawsuit, which I am not a party to, would go away that some resolution would be possible. Do you not acknowledge that this lawsuit is a legitmate response to the actions the AC pilots undertook? Do you not see that the lawsuit is an effect of those actions? It is not the cause of these problems. And, by the way, you did not answer the questions I put to you. Who started this whole mess anyway? seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 "Your working conditions and pay scale have not changed drastically toward the negative in the last 7 years, therefore you voluntarily accepted these conditions when you accepted the job offer, it was your choice, any presumptions made about further career aspirations at separate companies were the just that, presumptions " I was in one of the first few classes of "newhires" at CRA in the beginning of 97 and in my interview it was stated that because their is a relationship between CAIL/CRA at the time called LOU 52, that we all would all move over in an orderly flow if we so wanted to go. I was even considered an off the street candidate as I completed my university down at UND. That said, every summer I get together with some fellow classmates to "chew the fat". Several have gone on to majors in the states while others were able to gain employment with the regional careers.... ie Comair, American Eagle. I have chatted first hand with guys down there. My 40,000 dollar salary equates to about 29,711 in us funds, after seven years they feel that is ridiculous. I also mentioned that it takes over 7 years to make captain on a Dash and at some bases ie. Calgary and Vancouver 14 years does not even get you left seat on the bottom. Their comments are, that industry wide all over the world theses are generally considered entry level positions, but at Jazz we should be so privileged to one day have 15 years so one can go left seat on the CRJ. Forgive me for trying to make a better life for my family. A lot of us feel we are the victims of the fight that has gone on over the years with no solution in site. Why is this so hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 "It is only HATE and REVENGE that keeps driving the AO lawsuit" What about an unquenchable desire to see JUSTICE served? If you guys are so guiltless then what are you so worried about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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