Guest M. McRae Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Seems that there is discord at Southwest caused in part by the unpaid time spent cleaning the aircraft. http://556.twuatd.org/Media%20Advisory%205%5B1%5D.29.03%20HOU.pdf http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/state/hc-18082048.apds.m0271.bc-ct--soutjul18,0,5195693.story?coll=hc-headlines-local-wire http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-18-Fri-2003/business/21752010.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 1. Enter the new lost cost with all its happy go lucky staff. 2. Then comes the unions. 3. Then comes the ever increasing demands. 4. Then comes another newer entrant with lower costs / ticket prices and jovial staff. 5. ...and then comes the long slide down the slippery slope. Deregulation's been a great experiment for labour and shareholders alike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsgas Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Just the facts buddy. SW has been profitable for the past 32 years.Yeah that makes them pretty special being the only carrier in the world to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Do Southwest Pilots clean their aircraft? Or, is it just the cabin staff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 I believe it's like WestJet, time permitting they will do a quick clean up as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Just to clarify. Anyone at any airline can help groom the aircraft, unless of course its against union rules. Its not written in our job description or contract to my knowledge at WestJet that we must groom the aircraft. Most of us do it because we have a sense of pride of ownership in our company, equipment, and on on time performance not to mention the financial benefit. We also care about our fellow employees (fa's) and have a genuine desire to help them when we can. All that being said, our priority is the preflight preparation, and we assist in grooming only if time permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Just to clarify. Anyone at any airline can help groom the aircraft, unless of course its against union rules. Its not written in our job description or contract to my knowledge at WestJet that we must groom the aircraft. Most of us do it because we have a sense of pride of ownership in our company, equipment, and on on time performance, not to mention the financial benefit. Sorta like why people wash their own cars. We also care about our fellow employees (fa's) and have a genuine desire to help them when we can. Sorta like helpin your wife dry the dishes. All that being said, our priority is the preflight preparation, and we assist in grooming only if time permits. Sorta like after the grass is cut and the garbage has been taken out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Everyone wants to help their airline succeed any way they can, ie. going that extra mile by helping groom an aircraft (now it is standard). However there are unseen dangers in that maybe you are taking a position away from somebody who had a job as a groomer. This groomer earned a wage and in turn paid taxes and consumed goods and services and there-by contributed to the G.D.P. of the country. The micro-economics of the airline will be improved by the greater productivity of multi-tasking employees whom are working harder and more efficiently for less and with less. In the larger macro-economic situation of the country this could result in a lowering of the percentage chance for Full Employment which will result in an ever widening gap between rich and poor. Increased efficiencies are great but are they factoring people out of systems where you will end up with a smaller percentage of the work force doing too much work (ask a registered nurse about this) resulting in an increase in the unemployment rate? That said and Keynesian theory aside, it is a very competitive world and we will all do what is required to survive much to the chagrin of the ex-groomer whom is standing in the E.I. line not buying airline tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WTFO Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Jazzplayer, Maybe the grooming companies are charging way too much. Maybe it comes down to logistics. At WestJet, we have 30 minute turns, not much different from Jetsgo, Zip or Tango. All our standby employees are expected to help groom the aircraft. Each aircraft gets a thourough cleaning at night by professional groomers, but there really is no need during the regular runs. We save a pile of dough every year by doing the grooming ourselves. Picking up wrappers & crossing seatbelts. is generally all that's required. If we got a grooming company to do the turns, they would charge a huge amount of money. This in turn would drive up fairs, which would then in turn cost our guests and businesses more. This in turn would mean a smaller bottom line for the businessess that travel WJ as well as fewer dollars in the pockets of our non-business guests. You guessed it, fewer employees for our business guests and fewer spending for our non-business guests. So you see, by WJ, Zip, Tango Canjet (and all the rest) keeping fairs down, we inturn stimulate economies. I heard Comox was virtually a ghost town before we provided regular service. Now the town is growing once again. Property values are increasing as people are now buying "cottage" property knowing that they will be able to get there easily. You see Jazzplayer, it goes both ways. I just wanted to show you the other side of the coin. Bottom line, every company is responsible to it's shareholders and must ensure that unnecessary spending is kept to a minimum. WestJet has mastered this and this is why they are sucessfull. Treat people well, avoid unnecessary costs, and charge a decent price. A pretty simple and effective formula. WTFO !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsgas Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 The good old days of the $75,000 per year RAMP RAT are history. Now its produce or perrish. If you'll lazy and want to collect poggy and watch Jerry Springer all day long,don't bother applying for the new age air carrier.The passanger is demanding value for their dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfric Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Its interesting that this would become an issue. If everybody in the crew worked at it, (4 F/A's 2 Pilots and any body else who's willing to help) it takes about 5 minutes to fold the seatbelts and clean the garbage out of the seats in a 140 seat airplane. Over 4 legs thats 20 minutes. Have we become so nitpicky that we need to be worried about getting paid for 20 min or so out of a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Add that 20 minutes up over a career and there goes your new Porsche that Clive will be driving past you on your mountain bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Gapper Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I didn't you sticking your neck out in 1996 to start up an airline with Transat, C3, Royal, Greyhound, AC and Canadian, maybe if you did you would have the Porsche. It's not AC's responsiblity to employ as many people as possible, it's to provide a return for the investor, I pity all those FA's at Jazz getting laid off but if you don't need the people why should you feel obligated to pay them, The Fa's also are able to leave as they choose as well. Good for WestJet, the "it's not my job " syndrome is far to common in this industry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 What airline pays seventy five thousand to it's ramp rats ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Five minutes ya right at least ten minutes. thats 30 minutes a day and thats about three hours of free labour a week and we say you work about 48 weeks thats 144 hours you work for free and you make on average with pilots F/A's Station manager,or counter agent $20.50 hr that is about $2952.00 per employee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfric Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I would venture to guess that the fringe benefits of that 5 or 10 minutes of "FREE" work far out wieghs the $2900 dollars or so that they 'might' recieve. I'm talking about things such as: pride in your company, pride in the equipment that you fly in, increased production out of an employee, gains to the profit sharing, decreaced cost in ASM's, increased productivity in the aircraft etc. Besides its during the "Work time", so what else would the F/A's be doing anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Nothing for free right, even if it costs you your job. How is it that the WS crews have no trouble with this concept whatsoever but the crews in the AC camp find it unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I agree with you to an extent however it is definitely a double edged sword! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 There is no free lunch but apparently there are a few free Stampede Breakfasts . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 The F/A might want a ten minute break. Go to the washroom powder her or his nose. The point I am trying to make is what if there is no profit for you thats three thousand bucks out of your pocket. And keeping with the Thread the Southwest F/A's with the rest of the Southwest employees should be geting more profit cash but as time moves ahead the managers take more and the front line employees get the same amount. That's why profit sharing will not work in the long haul.Just watch Southwest will fall apart as they make more profit and the front line gets railroaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 This would be a good place for Don Hudson to kick in with his analysis of the historical conflict between labour and management. The world is an everchanging maze. What is the path to success and personal happiness? What is success? GTFA (Death to sacred cows!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 AC has no profit sharing so you only do your own job because we do not ask a cleaner or a AME to fly the plane so we should not ask flight crews to clean the plane. Its that simple just do your own job but if we are short on staff for the day we all pitch in if time permits us to leave your reguler dutys.I can only talk about my Jazz base because that's who I work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfric Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Then I think what we get into is a union mentality here. I guess southwest F/A's are union so the point is moot, however this is what union mentality produces. Money for doing something we as cabin crew should do anyway (in my opinion). We do 30 minute turns, the system is designed for maximum productivity, to get the airplane up in the air as soon as possible so that aiplane continues to make money. It will not make anything sitting on the ground. If asking the flight crew to chip in and quickly clean and straighten out the cabin will promote this all the better for the operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pivot Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Well if you are going to look at the bigger picture... then I think we should all stop cleaning up our food trays at the fast food restaurants! Just think how many people could be employed if they had to clean up after us all. Hmmm. There's an idea. How about a "Thank You" waste basket at the front door for folks to put their trash in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 "The point I am trying to make is what if there is no profit for you thats three thousand bucks out of your pocket." Wizard, if there is no profit then the company is going broke. You will have more to worry about than three thousand bucks out of your pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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