DEFCON Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Why couldn't you have made your first post this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Excellent post Don! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Labtec; Re "I have to tell you the preceding arguments are not arguments that I believe in my heart of hearts." I didn't think so. I know your posts from the past and the view you were expressing just didn't match what I had learned about your past views. I think you'll have to admit however, that your post expressed the notion that airline pilots were definitely not worth what they're currently paid which as world's distance away from what I think you're really saying and that's that the "market" and our own regressive behaviour won't sustain current remuneration levels. Is that about it? If so, then I agree with you that we've lowered the bar through some very fast manuevering and work on the part of many participants. I would never submit however, to any arguments which claimed that we don't earn our money or that we're not worth what we're paid. I further claim that the Race To The Bottom will have its own reward as good people go elsewhere because the career is worth the salary paid and always has been. I won't debate here the wisdom, the reasons or the recent actions on the part of others and even ourselves which has led to this sad state of affairs. It will either change out of necessity or it will reap its own reward, both results which you and I will be watching from the sidelines in retirement. You can't fly airliners safely without qualified, capable and dedicated people, and you can't put the career on sale for a $1.49 and expect to attract the kind of people necessary to do this work well. They'll go elsewhere. I'm watching the Westjet experiment as closely as the next non-Wj pilot in Canada. The experiment is 7 years old. Air Canada/TCA is more than 9 times as old and has survived intact from Day 1. I don't subscribe to one-dimensional slogans such as "the 'model' is broken". The business is too complex and affected by too many outside factors, even though there is at present, the "low-cost model" is successful. Trends and their success are measured in decades, not single-digit time periods. By the time retirement comes, we'll know if the model is truly changed and we'll know if good people who have chosen the airlines as a career are ready to take FWYC wages for all the trouble, expense, uncertainty, insecurity, responsibility, career inflexibility, lousy schedules, time changes and potential legal nightmares. We don't know the long-term outcomes of profit-sharing and whether that will be sufficient in years to come. Re "I certainly do not want to see this end up the way its headed . . . " I thought so. That's kinda the way I was expecting, although again that's certainly not what was posted, . Re ". . . but based upon the way things are going today and in the last 20 or so years I feel the good times are just about over." That's the period I'm interested in as well...in fact, the past 30 years. But industry salaries have remained high (as they should) largely throughout the world. We have a unique situation in Canada the Canadian Lobsters-In-The-Bucket syndrome has provided a lot of synergy with the Race-To-The-Bottom strategy embraced by some. I somehow cannot escape completely your views on how we have been complicitous in this downfall. Thanks for taking the time to respond. For the rest. . ., time will tell us only too soon. Best, Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Don, Very insightful post. Evil is perhaps the wrong word, but has generated the dialogue I am sure the original poster desired. A large amount of the ill will towards ACPA by others is due to the effect that the this strong pilot's union has had on our careers. Regional pilots have been forced to fight for table scraps for years, ACPA has not just fought to maintain jobs for their members, as you state, but snatched more when able. Read RJ's. If a certain amount of glee oozes through in some postings, it is because of the perception that the current state of affairs is largely of ACPA's design. Yes, SARS, 911 have expedited the demise. When you are the big kid on the block, that comes with a certain amount of power, and privilege. I am hopeful that lessons have been learned as of late, and one day, big brother will actually play ball with the rest. As far as a race to the bottom, life at the regional is OK. One can raise a family, and in some cases, reflect on the decision, not to move up to the mainline, as being a good call. Time will tell I guess. Have a great day, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PilotsWife Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Crew Sched and spouse! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Defcon, No, No, No, you have it all wrong my friend, we are not blaming the AC pilots for the lower wages, we're just blaming them for simply being EVIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CleardecksforACTION! Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Yes I agree...Thank goodness...Will you be retiring from posting as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 So you're gone in 3 short years and now, after almost a full career of reaping the hard won benefits of your brethren, fallen, beaten, and otherwise, you're prepared to say they're all overpaid! Good god man even if you think it you at least owe it to your kin to shut up about it! And how in hell could you think it!!?? You tell me what other profession routinely takes hundreds of people and a machine as complex as our aircraft in their hands every day and doesn't get paid very well for it? You sound as though you take for granted the reliability in these machines and I suggest you think twice. I can tell you stories that would make your litllest itty bitty short and curly hairs at the base of your neck stand straight and tall! I tell you, sir, with all due respect... I thank god (well, in my own way, as I'm not a religious guy) every day that you guys are paid well! The last kind of pilot I want to hand any of these ships over to is one who hasn't got a serious hold of the responsibility and potential for hazard that's in his hands, and I, for one, want to see that he's as well paid as it takes to make bloody sure he knows the balls are in his court.... mine and his and every last brothers uncle that hands him their life. Sure, a bus driver and the waitress... When they take the shoulder off the road, or better yet, turn it into a pit of acid that ensures death if the machine stops... and you park the tavern on top of 200 lbs of kerosene, plant 200 people inside with nothing in common other than they're where they don't wanna be, and put all that in the back of that bus, moving 600 mph through a hostile atmosphere.... then you might have the analogy closer to complete. I can't believe what I'm hearing from you Labtec. Have you got kids? What kind of a wage do you think is going to fetch the people you want to have flying them around?... Oh, hang on... I forgot, you think the machine is so safe it wouldn't matter if there was any old dope in the cockpit? Hmmmm.... Tell that to the hordes of people and their loved ones who bit the dirt for the last time in a thousand melt downs of man or machine... Ugly scenes, every one... Nationair, Valujet, Swiss air, AA, UAL, Air Canada, PWA, Thai, PIA, Air Japan, TWA, yada yada etc, WAY too many to mention... People that would STILL be alive if the machines, or the pilots, could have handled the situation... Nosir. Don't spare a dime when picking the folks who fly these machines! Machines BREAK! Trust me, I know! If you don't know it yet, you'd better touch wood! Now take a glass (provided you're not working tomorrow!) Pour about 3 fingers of golden nectar, add mix as desired, shift gears and rethink... Please? Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G3 Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 The reality is the market is realigning itself. Since the demise of Canadian, Air Canada pilot wages have been disproportionately high compared to the rest of the Canadian industry (you can compare your self to other countries but employers could care less. They have Canadian economic realities to deal with.). The reason for this is highly complex but if you want to simplify it, you could say people desire to fly for a living and different companies have provided that opportunity. Since Wardair, there has been a steady decline in aviation wages outside of AC. However, people were still able to provide a living for their family by flying for various operators. We are probably at our lowest point in recent history, perhaps ever. We are now at a point where people are having to make life altering choices for the betterment of their family. For myself, I never had a desire to fly for thirty years for one company. I had made a career of flying abroad on various contracts doing different types of flying, Airline, Cargo, VIP but after 9/11/01 that became increasingly difficult so I returned to Canada and flew night cargo. I have never been treated as poorly as I was at that operation (and I was 93' Royal Pilot), there is very little reward flying a broken down B727 across Canada at night when conditions stink and pay is very poor and management think they are doing you a favour. So after 15 years, 9000 hr.s and 10 jet type ratings I am using my education to make a better living then I could by flying in Canada. We haven't yet bottomed out, that will only occur when more experience pilots leave the country or the industry. We are seeing right now twenty-somethings kids get their first jet right seat and they think they have the world by the tail. They are so inexperienced, they don't even know that what they have stinks. You have experience pilots who are so afraid to stand up for what is right for fear of losing their crappy job. They are the ones who are so insecure they will put up with anything. Come-on guys, if you can command a jetliner, surely to god you must believe you could do something else that would treat you with more respect and at least the same pay. Until people outside of AC start standing up for what is right, AC wages will continue to align themselves with the other operators wage levels. Do I think AC pilot wages before the TA were too high, yes. Do I think JetsGo, CargoJet, Kelowna, Firstair, etc. wages are what they should be, no, I think they are too low. I withhold comment on WestJet because I think we need to give it more time to see if it will last (overall compensation). Regarding the comment on auto workers, drywallers, city grass-cutters. These are all union positions. Our economy is evolving, the unions and their leadership are not. They are now seeing an ever growing backlash against them and the gravy days are drawing to a close. One small example, my new career is to supply automated equipment to the auto industry to eliminate those $30/hr assembly line positions. The times are changing and in the aviation industry in Canada, they are not for the good. I think for the near future (5-7 years) alot of people are going to have to do some soul searching and do what is right for them and their family. I didn't agree with alot NEO had to say but I will agree with one of his thoughts, for every person there comes a time when "enough is enough" and you take a stand. Until more people do this and perhaps vote with their feet; the operators won't get the message and neither will the travelling public, who are only interested in the cheapest fare. It is only when there is a shortage of experience pilots will conditions and pay improve. The soap box is now free for use. G3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 You are right, of course, Defcon. If one has the innate or even aquired ability to engage in certain activities then for those special individuals, the employment requirements are easily met. No matter how much I practised, I could never have been a Mike Weir but I'll wager I can beat 90% of the golfers on this forum without expending maximum effort. I doubt that you'd make much of a welder although I'm sure you're a fine pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Actually...at one time I had an HP welding ticket. Good bucks there for sure but...too friggin hot and dirty to make a career of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 MD; LLB; I'm beginning to think there's almost nothing you can't do....except, of course, answer the post above....unless "because" should be construed as evidence of your philosophical propensities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 And what about some of those so called Sitcom stars getting paid $500,000.00 per episode (there are how many episddes per season ?....30?) Or those lovely Supermodels with their "My kaka don't smell" attitudes ? Why are they getting paid so very much. Perhaps we should contact Aaron Spelling or Steven Spielberg and put in a grievance. Go figure, huh ! Seems there are simply far too many people in this world getting way overpaid for the career they choose. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Labtec I just now re-read your comments and I want to apologize for my earlier response. I quite apparently didn't read well at all before I spoke, I'm sorry. Though the heart of what I'd said was, I think, valid, I've removed the post so as not to offend. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Bergen Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Labtec, I am not trying to form part of a gang of Don Hudson, Mitch Cronin and myself, but they have stated very well - from both a pilot and non-pilot perspective - why pilots are paid what they are. One of the things that I think has to be re-iterated very clearly, is the fact that the profession (notice I call it a profession - look up the definition of profession) of piloting reqires a particular kind of person. The first weeding out comes on the first solo - for example, I know two individuals who, when faced with their first solo, refused to go. They did not have the confidence in their ability to get in that aircraft and get it in the air realizing the only person who would get it back down again was themselves. (It could be argued that the first weeding out comes when the decision is made to actually take flying lessons). The above is only the first of many many 'weeding out processes pilots face during their careers. One of the biggest weeding out procedures is the promotion to Captain. At that point the pilot has proven he/she can fly an aircraft - now the ability to lead; the ability to remain in control of themselves and sort through problems and most importantly the ability to inspire confidence and command the aircraft, crew and passengers is assessed. This, Labtec, is what the salary is for. I have sat in simulators over and over again (and for that matter in real aircraft - fortunately not very often) and watched a crew deal with all sorts of horrific problems programmed by me to test them. With only a quiet word back and forth, with professionalism, clarity and absolute confidence - the kind of confidence that cannot be bought - they resolve the emergency, they keep communication with their crew and with ATC and the passengers current and they bring the aircraft (simulator) to a successful flight conclusion. My final 'gut check' assesment of a crew or individual pilot when I checked them was "would I put my family behind them with absolute confidence?" If the answer was an unequivocal "yes', then they went back to flying Air Canada Aircraft - if not, then they went for further training - and the pilots understood and accepted that. Again, that is one of the reasons pilots are paid the salaries they are. One of the reasons Air Canada has been paying the kind of money they have for pilots is demonstrated by the amount of offshore flight training Air Canada has done over the years. The reputation is out there - Air Canada pilots and procedures are either among the best or THE best there is. I am not denigrating Westjet at all, but I do not see them doing much offshore training - and I am not saying they are not safe - all I am saying is that they have not got the maturity of procedures and training standards that Air Canada has - and this maturity came from the pilots. I also agree with Mitch Cronin when he states 'if this is the way you think, for Gods sake do not get on a public forum and spout off about it (sic)' Also, it would probably be more credible if you actually signed you name to your missives. Cheers Harvey Bergen - Retired wide body, 747-400 pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Harvey you said that so much better than I had! I deleted what I'd said because I felt it was too harsh and lacked any understanding of his point of view... The essence of what I said I'll repost here since I believe it to be true: If you take for granted the reliability in these machines, I suggest you think twice. I could tell you stories that would make your litllest itty bitty short and curly hairs at the base of your neck stand straight and tall! I tell you, with all due respect... I thank god (well, in my own way, as I'm not a religious guy) every day that you pilots are paid well! The last kind of pilot I want to hand any of these ships over to is one who hasn't got a serious hold of the responsibility and potential for hazard that's in his hands, and I, for one, want to see that he's as well paid as it takes to make bloody sure he knows the balls are in his court.... mine and his and every last brothers uncle that hands him their life. A bus driver and the waitress... When they take the shoulder off the road, or better yet, turn it into a pit of acid that ensures death if the machine stops... and you park the tavern on top of 200 lbs of kerosene, plant 200 people inside with nothing in common other than they're where they don't wanna be, and put all that in the back of that bus, moving 600 mph through a hostile atmosphere.... then the analogy might be closer to complete. What kind of a wage do you think is going to fetch the people you want to have flying your kids or grandkids around?... You think it wouldn't matter if there was any old dope in the cockpit? Hmmmm.... Tell that to the hordes of people and their loved ones who bit the dirt for the last time in a thousand melt downs of man or machine... Ugly scenes, every one... Nationair, Valujet, Swiss air, AA, UAL, Air Canada, PWA, Thai, PIA, Air Japan, TWA, yada yada etc, WAY too many to mention... People that would STILL be alive if the machines, or the pilots, could have handled the situation... Nosir. Don't spare a dime when picking the folks who fly these machines! Machines BREAK! Trust me, I know! If you don't know it yet, you'd better touch wood! Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Bergen Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Mitch, well said - and when - not if - they break, you had better have rehearsed and rehearsed and trained and trained AND have your head in gear to get the sucker back on the ground. It does not happen often, but every pilot I know knows the fine tremor of his hand after having the hell scared out of himself. However, he /she got it on the ground or the tremor would be no more. Cheers Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blizzard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 The following is my Opinion only. My opinion is based not on being a professional pilot, although I am related to one. I work for AC in a "professional" capacity (ie what the NAFTA agreement considers "professional"). I think the top end pilot salaries are too high and the bottom end salaries are too low. In my job, the spread between the university grad and the 25 year guy doing the same job is about $30K. I believe most professions are about the same, if you stay at the same company, doing the same job. All bets are off if you start doing consulting or are promoted to a different job. I don't think professional piloting should be any different. Once you have a commercial license, I don't think you should have to go to the food bank to survive. Also, if you are working for a major airline for 20 years, I don't think you should have 5 vehicles in the driveway and a $2million house. Again, if you get into a private commercial job where the conditions are different - you should be able to make as much as they will pay you - bonus if you do more than just fly. The tough question is how to dry up the supply of freshly minted commercial pilots so that the wages at the bottom are increased. Obviously making it more expensive is not the answer, as it already is way too expensive (in my opinion). I really think that artificial barriers need to be in place, but how to get them there is the problem. Unless TC helps you out by changing the regulations, there is little you can do on your own. My suggestion would be something along the lines of a Bachelor of Science in aviation, that is a requirement for all commercial pilots in Canada. Yes, the profession requires more skill than thought, but how else are you going to reduce the numbers of people entering so that the wages on the bottom improve. You could also make a private pilot license a requirement for entry into the university program. This would ensure that the people that are entering are serious about piloting as a profession. Of course the flight schools and remote operators would fight this plan tooth and nail. The flight schools are out there to sell a dream and the remote operators are the ones who benefit with the minimum wage salaries for pilots. (Of course not all flight schools and remote operators fit this description, but you can bet that the ones who aren't good enough to find their niche in this setup would fight) I've had discussions about this plan with pilots before and one of the big arguements I've heard was that they felt that they have put in enough hours that they shouldn't need to get a degree as well. My counter to that is that you don't have to put in more hours, you just need to get those hours "recognized" by a higher authority. There is certainly enough theory and problem solving involved in getting a commercial pilots licence to turn it into a university curiculum - the problem is making it mandatory for all to follow this new "recognized" curiculum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blizzard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Another idea for restricting entry... Do away with the ATPL, (which sets up a two tiered system) and make the commercial licence much much harder to get. You could do this by having a set of exams (similar to JAA exams or like the bar exam for lawyers) Only the top whatever number gets their license. If you don't get a high enough grade, you can retest as many times as you like, but each time, only a certain number of people that take "the test" are certified. It dries up the numbers of commercial pilots and ensures that only the best of the best get into the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bugsy G Darren Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 You must get paid alot then! When are you going to the Emirates? Thats the only way you can be assured of a change in management. P.S. By signing a a petition against management shows a great deal on how you interact with authority, future employers use all of this info when looking for employees. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Blizzard; Just a quick response, as I'm out in a short while. Re "I don't think you should have 5 vehicles in the driveway and a $2million house." No, nor do I, but then I don't think CEO's, Hockey Players, Media Talking Heads, or Stock Promoters should either, but I know I'm way out of step with reality here. I'm even further out of step when I think that those who have dedicated their careers to people (education and healthcare for example) ought to be making those kinds of salaries. As an aside, to me there's a lot more nobility and honor in caring for, teaching or otherwise being involved with people than there is in making money, but that and a dollar won't even get one a Designer coffee at Starbuk's... Almost no one, even of my 30 years + seniority, are in the category of owning five cars and living in multi-million dollar homes. They just don't. Bluff properties in White Rock are not owned by airline pilots, and if they are, they got it decades ago when it was all bushland and cottages. If they do own such homes, they've made their money elsewhere by wise investing, good timing, hard work and likely a combo of all three and more. There are no "millionaire" pilots who got there by salary alone. Given this, my heart and my empathy is fully onside with those who now earn less than some clerks to fly junior aircraft. Fifty-thousand bucks a year makes it difficult for any family to fully feed, clothe, house, educate and otherwise help their children attain the basics, let alone the unattainable Dreamfactory images that oozes out of every media advertisers' pores. Such a salary however, is positively indecent when it comes to paying a Captain of an airliner, and that's what's happening now. As far as reducing the supply of pilots, that's a long discussion which needs to go into assumptions about market forces and the ability/wisdom/capacity to control same. I am not at all convinced that in labour, the same forces which increase costs for oranges in a year of frost, drives up labour prices through shortages. The short reason I say this is, the situation is inverted in labour vs. normal commodity supply-demand curves. The demand for labour is determined by producers (of commodities) and the supply of labour is determined by consumers (providers of labour). There are no labour "factories" turning out "workers" according to demand. That rests solely with the workforce, and the forces which govern the ebb and flow of that kind of supply are not attached to producer (corporate) demand, but march to the consumer's own drum, so to speak. There is not an significant oversupply of pilots in the industry right now. Yes, furloughs are occuring, but they are occurring not because AC (or any other airline) has too many pilots. (For the answer to why they're occurring at AC, you'll have to talk to the Seabury Group). To be sure, its complex and certainly some minor effect of supply/demand is operative, but only on a small, and demonstrably local level. The reasons for diminishing salaries across the board are much broader and have to do more with forces about which I have posted and discussed here over many years and times, than to do with any "oversupply" of labour. Must run...have a good one. regards, Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Good post Don I'd just add that because of the relatively low return for the large investment of time and money needed to have a career as a pilot, there will be fewer and fewer people going into the profession. I think in short order there will be a large shortage of qualified pilots and as a result salaries will return to more normal levels in time. I'm afraid though that it will be quite a long time before we get another group along who have been as fortunate as you and I. Greg Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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