ACPA is Evil

[ChicoChico]

Cormac and Dozer

I think this crap should not even be dignified with a response BUT

When a fan quits over the North Pacific, in the middle of the night, with CB's all around, there isn't enough money in the world to pay you what you're worth!

- especially if I'm on my rest!

Captain Chico

PS - forgive them for they just don't get it!

[dozerboy]

Thanks RM

[Don Hudson]

Labtec:

Re "It requires a little more skill but certainly not enough to justify paying the bus driver a quarter of a million dollars per year."

Perhaps the profession has sunk to this level because we ourselves do not respect it, and ourselves, sufficiently?

An airline pilot who would publicly denigrate his profession and those in it shows little self-respect and even less for his compatriots. The employers of pilots around the world will rejoice at such a public display, and those who despise Canadians for lowering the bar will be finally be able to point with singular justification.

For over thirty years, the airline piloting profession has been under steady, grinding, complicitous attack by outsiders, mainly employers. Few wish to grant any sort of special status to any highly trained group and this profession is no exception. "Dumbing down" has become a widespread technique for making absolutely everything "accessible" to everybody with little effort, work, investment or energy. The side benefits to employers are that they get to openly challenge "special" treatment, "special" here meaning higher wages, the power which comes from doing something few can do and which withdrawal of results in a system's temporary collapse, and in some measure, a bit of social status.

"Catch Me If You Can" has scenes of PanAm pilots which are completely and absolutely foreign to today's airline pilot. The term "anachronism" doesn't begin to describe how an airline pilot was treated then in comparison to now.

In my studied opinion, this destruction of our profession is no accident.

There are many interests who desire to eunuch such authority and power which derive from flying aircraft and being responsible for our passengers' lives. Aside from mild, occasional societal and co-worker antipathy towards pilots, the greatest motivations and gains are corporate.

The important thing is to leave no corporate fingerprints on the tactic however, and apparently now there is no need for we seem perfectly capable of public, spontaneous self-immolation all on our own, your own personal contribution being only the latest and most clearly stated. Senior corporate managers could only hope for such statements because it comes, apparently, from one of us.

The denigration of the career and profession of Airline Pilot is as popular these days as bashing George Dubya. Dismissing skill, training, dedication and professionalism for the simple, off-the-cuff featherweight opinion that "we're not worthy" is unjust and unwarranted. While I can certainly understand it under the present unhappy and very difficult circumstances, I am taken aback at the quality of the thinking and expression of deep frustration, especially given your past contributions which I have enjoyed immensely.

At the heart of your opinion is a fundamental flaw: that because flying airiners is "just so easy" and anyone with a "grade 10" education or something like that can do it safely, successfully every time, it ought to be paid low wages, (the corollary which you touch on and which I have one observation, is that everyone ought to take "commensurate" wage reductions because they too, are not worthy (is that about correct?). In such a scenario, would you still have airline pilot wages relatively higher, or would the job attract similar want-fries-with-yer-coke wages?)

Back to my point: The fundamental flaw is an old one: Familiarity breeds contempt.

I believe we earn and deserve every penny we make. The day my profession is reduced to a taken-for-granted "job" and paid KMart wages with all the respect and authority of a packing clerk, is the day its over for me. While we may be under severe challenges, we still command an airliner with people on board. An airliner without a crew is a long, long way off technologically and an even longer way off societally. Until then, I am the President of a $250 million dollar organization carrying perhaps a billion dollars in direct and indirect potential liabilities for my employer, and my crew are the CEO and COO respectively.

If my worth is measured only in button-pushing and going up and down when told by the computers, pay me paperboy wages because you're right...its driving a bus.

But if my worth is measured in experience, skill, training and responsibility (which I note you dismiss in the thread), the employer will pay me that $2100 per day and some days it still isn't nearly enough.

There is an old saying in this business which you'll have no doubt heard before: "I make $100,000 a minute but you'll never know which one".

I hope you'll re-examine your views Labtec. I truly am puzzled.

Cheers,

Don

[Guest GDR]

The CRP on my last trip had over 20 years flying experience. She has been a Capt on a C130, and an A310.

Just maybe she is worth what they pay her don't ya think?

Greg Robinson

[Guest jazzplayer]

An excellent and very articulate post, kudos to you Don.

[Don Hudson]

Labtec:

Re "It requires a little more skill but certainly not enough to justify paying the bus driver a quarter of a million dollars per year."

Perhaps the profession has sunk to this level because we ourselves do not respect it, and ourselves, sufficiently?

An airline pilot who would publicly denigrate his profession and those in it shows little self-respect and even less for his compatriots. The employers of pilots around the world will rejoice at

such a public display, and those who despise Canadians for lowering the bar will be finally be able to point with singular justification.

For over thirty years, the airline piloting profession has been under steady, grinding, complicitous attack by outsiders, mainly employers. Few wish to grant any sort of special status to any highly

trained group and this profession is no exception. "Dumbing down" has become a widespread technique for making absolutely everything "accessible" to everybody with little effort, work, investment or

energy. The side benefits to employers are that they get to openly challenge "special" treatment, "special" here meaning higher wages, the power which comes from doing something few can do and which

withdrawal of results in a system's temporary collapse, and in some measure, a bit of social status.

"Catch Me If You Can" has scenes of PanAm pilots which are completely and absolutely foreign to today's airline pilot. The term "anachronism" doesn't begin to describe how an airline pilot was

treated then in comparison to now.

In my studied opinion, this destruction of our profession is no accident.

There are many interests who desire to eunuch such authority and power which derive from flying aircraft and being responsible for our passengers' lives. Aside from mild, occasional societal and

co-worker antipathy towards pilots, the greatest motivations and gains are corporate.

The important thing is to leave no corporate fingerprints on the tactic however, and apparently now there is no need for we seem perfectly capable of public, spontaneous self-immolation all on our

own, your own personal contribution being only the latest and most clearly stated. Senior corporate managers could only hope for such statements because it comes, apparently, from one of us.

The denigration of the career and profession of Airline Pilot is as popular these days as bashing George Dubya. Dismissing skill, training, dedication and professionalism for the simple,

off-the-cuff featherweight opinion that "we're not worthy" is unjust and unwarranted. While I can certainly understand it under the present unhappy and very difficult circumstances, I am taken aback

at the quality of the thinking and expression of deep frustration, especially given your past contributions which I have enjoyed immensely.

At the heart of your opinion is a fundamental flaw: that because flying airiners is "just so easy" and anyone with a "grade 10" education or something like that can do it safely, successfully every

time, it ought to be paid low wages, (the corollary which you touch on and which I have one observation, is that everyone ought to take "commensurate" wage reductions because they too, are not

worthy (is that about correct?). In such a scenario, would you still have airline pilot wages relatively higher, or would the job attract similar want-fries-with-yer-coke wages?)

Back to my point: The fundamental flaw is an old one: Familiarity breeds contempt.

I believe we earn and deserve every penny we make. The day my profession is reduced to a taken-for-granted "job" and paid KMart wages with all the respect and authority of a packing clerk, is the

day its over for me. While we may be under severe challenges, we still command an airliner with people on board. An airliner without a crew is a long, long way off technologically and an even longer

way off societally. To put it in business-like terms, the Captain is the President, the First Officer the CEO, and when carried, the RP the COO, of a organization worth anywhere from $30 million to

$250 million dollars, carrying somewhere in the neighbourhood of a billion dollars in direct and indirect potential liabilities for the employer. In no corporate world which I am familiar with does

that attract the kind of respect or remuneration which you are advocating for your profession.

If my worth is measured only in button-pushing and going up and down when told by the computers, pay me paperboy wages because you're right...its driving a bus. (And you're incorrect on how easy the

"Airbus" is to fly. Its stating the obvious and the trite, but like anything else, its only easy when you know how, and that's what we're paid for...just like the plumber's bill and the customer

complaint! ).

But if my worth is measured in experience, skill, training and responsibility (which I note you dismiss in the thread), the employer will pay me that $2100 per day and some days it still isn't

nearly enough.

There is an old saying in this business which you'll have no doubt heard before: "I make $100,000 a minute but you'll never know which one".

I hope you'll re-examine your views Labtec. I truly am puzzled.

Cheers,

Don

[Don Hudson]

Labtec:

Re "It requires a little more skill but certainly not enough to justify paying the bus driver a quarter of a million dollars per year."

Perhaps the profession has sunk to this level because we ourselves do not respect it, and ourselves, sufficiently?

An airline pilot who would publicly denigrate his profession and those in it shows little self-respect and even less for his compatriots. The employers of pilots around the world will rejoice at

such a public display, and those who despise Canadians for lowering the bar will be finally be able to point with singular justification.

For over thirty years, the airline piloting profession has been under steady, grinding, complicitous attack by outsiders, mainly employers. Few wish to grant any sort of special status to any highly

trained group and this profession is no exception. "Dumbing down" has become a widespread technique for making absolutely everything "accessible" to everybody with little effort, work, investment or

energy. The side benefits to employers are that they get to openly challenge "special" treatment, "special" here meaning higher wages, the power which comes from doing something few can do and which

withdrawal of results in a system's temporary collapse, and in some measure, a bit of social status.

"Catch Me If You Can" has scenes of PanAm pilots which are completely and absolutely foreign to today's airline pilot. The term "anachronism" doesn't begin to describe how an airline pilot was

treated then in comparison to now.

In my studied opinion, this destruction of our profession is no accident.

There are many interests who desire to eunuch such authority and power which derive from flying aircraft and being responsible for our passengers' lives. Aside from mild, occasional societal and

co-worker antipathy towards pilots, the greatest motivations and gains are corporate.

The important thing is to leave no corporate fingerprints on the tactic however, and apparently now there is no need for we seem perfectly capable of public, spontaneous self-immolation all on our

own, your own personal contribution being only the latest and most clearly stated. Senior corporate managers could only hope for such statements because it comes, apparently, from one of us.

The denigration of the career and profession of Airline Pilot is as popular these days as bashing George Dubya. Dismissing skill, training, dedication and professionalism for the simple,

off-the-cuff featherweight opinion that "we're not worthy" is unjust and unwarranted. While I can certainly understand it under the present unhappy and very difficult circumstances, I am taken aback

at the quality of the thinking and expression of deep frustration, especially given your past contributions which I have enjoyed immensely.

At the heart of your opinion is a fundamental flaw: that because flying airiners is "just so easy" and anyone with a "grade 10" education or something like that can do it safely, successfully every

time, it ought to be paid low wages, (the corollary which you touch on and which I have one observation, is that everyone ought to take "commensurate" wage reductions because they too, are not

worthy (is that about correct?). In such a scenario, would you still have airline pilot wages relatively higher, or would the job attract similar want-fries-with-yer-coke wages?)

Back to my point: The fundamental flaw is an old one: Familiarity breeds contempt.

I believe we earn and deserve every penny we make. The day my profession is reduced to a taken-for-granted "job" and paid KMart wages with all the respect and authority of a packing clerk, is the

day its over for me. While we may be under severe challenges, we still command an airliner with people on board. An airliner without a crew is a long, long way off technologically and an even longer

way off societally. To put it in business-like terms, the Captain is the President, the First Officer the CEO, and when carried, the RP the COO, of a organization worth anywhere from $30 million to

$250 million dollars, carrying somewhere in the neighbourhood of a billion dollars in direct and indirect potential liabilities for the employer. In no corporate world which I am familiar with does

that attract the kind of respect or remuneration which you are advocating for your profession.

If my worth is measured only in button-pushing and going up and down when told by the computers, pay me paperboy wages because you're right...its driving a bus. (And you're incorrect on how easy the

"Airbus" is to fly. Its stating the obvious and the trite, but like anything else, its only easy when you know how, and that's what we're paid for...just like the plumber's bill and the customer

complaint! ).

But if my worth is measured in experience, skill, training and responsibility (which I note you dismiss in the thread), the employer will pay me that $2100 per day and some days it still isn't

nearly enough.

There is an old saying in this business which you'll have no doubt heard before: "I make $100,000 a minute but you'll never know which one".

I hope you'll re-examine your views Labtec. I truly am puzzled.

Cheers,

Don

[Don Hudson]

Labtec:

Re "It requires a little more skill but certainly not enough to justify paying the bus driver a quarter of a million dollars per year."

Perhaps the profession has sunk to this level because we ourselves do not respect it, and ourselves, sufficiently?

An airline pilot who would publicly denigrate his profession and those in it shows little self-respect and even less for his compatriots. The employers of pilots around the world will rejoice at such a public display, and those who despise Canadians for lowering the bar will be finally be able to point with singular justification.

For over thirty years, the airline piloting profession has been under steady, grinding, complicitous attack by outsiders, mainly employers. Few wish to grant any sort of special status to any highly trained group and this profession is no exception. "Dumbing down" has become a widespread technique for making absolutely everything "accessible" to everybody with little effort, work, investment or energy. The side benefits to employers are that they get to openly challenge "special" treatment, "special" here meaning higher wages, the power which comes from doing something few can do and which withdrawal of results in a system's temporary collapse, and in some measure, a bit of social status.

"Catch Me If You Can" has scenes of PanAm pilots which are completely and absolutely foreign to today's airline pilot. The term "anachronism" doesn't begin to describe how an airline pilot was treated then in comparison to now.

In my studied opinion, this destruction of our profession is no accident.

There are many interests who desire to eunuch such authority and power which derive from flying aircraft and being responsible for our passengers' lives. Aside from mild, occasional societal and co-worker antipathy towards pilots, the greatest motivations and gains are corporate.

The important thing is to leave no corporate fingerprints on the tactic however, and apparently now there is no need for we seem perfectly capable of public, spontaneous self-immolation all on our own, your own personal contribution being only the latest and most clearly stated. Senior corporate managers could only hope for such statements because it comes, apparently, from one of us.

The denigration of the career and profession of Airline Pilot is as popular these days as bashing George Dubya. Dismissing skill, training, dedication and professionalism for the simple, off-the-cuff featherweight opinion that "we're not worthy" is unjust and unwarranted. While I can certainly understand it under the present unhappy and very difficult circumstances, I am taken aback at the quality of the thinking and expression of deep frustration, especially given your past contributions which I have enjoyed immensely.

At the heart of your opinion is a fundamental flaw: that because flying airiners is "just so easy" and anyone with a "grade 10" education or something like that can do it safely, successfully every time, it ought to be paid low wages, (the corollary which you touch on and which I have one observation, is that everyone ought to take "commensurate" wage reductions because they too, are not worthy (is that about correct?). In such a scenario, would you still have airline pilot wages relatively higher, or would the job attract similar want-fries-with-yer-coke wages?)

Back to my point: The fundamental flaw is an old one: Familiarity breeds contempt.

I believe we earn and deserve every penny we make. The day my profession is reduced to a taken-for-granted "job" and paid KMart wages with all the respect and authority of a packing clerk, is the day its over for me. While we may be under severe challenges, we still command an airliner with people on board. An airliner without a crew is a long, long way off technologically and an even longer way off societally. To put it in business-like terms, the Captain is the President, the First Officer the CEO, and when carried, the RP the COO, of a organization worth anywhere from $30 million to $250 million dollars, carrying somewhere in the neighbourhood of a billion dollars in direct and indirect potential liabilities for the employer. In no corporate world which I am familiar with does that attract the kind of respect or remuneration which you are advocating for your profession.

If my worth is measured only in button-pushing and going up and down when told by the computers, pay me paperboy wages because you're right...its driving a bus. (And you're incorrect on how easy the "Airbus" is to fly. Its stating the obvious and the trite, but like anything else, its only easy when you know how, and that's what we're paid for...just like the plumber's bill and the customer complaint! ).

But if my worth is measured in experience, skill, training and responsibility (which I note you dismiss in the thread), the employer will pay me that $2100 per day and some days it still isn't nearly enough.

There is an old saying in this business which you'll have no doubt heard before: "I make $100,000 a minute but you'll never know which one".

I hope you'll re-examine your views Labtec. I truly am puzzled.

Cheers,

Don

[ChicoChico]

Bravo Don!

I knew we needed to get the subject line changed too since it, in itself, is an undignified cheap-shot...

Chico

[Don Hudson]

CC;

Yeah, I can't figure it out. Dunno where this all came from...outa the blue like this.

[Guest WA777]

Don...30 years ago, while flying as a DC-10 F/E about I found myself involved in a very dangerous incident....at the time both the the F/O and I made the wrong choice....if it were not for the many years of experience of the Captain, who ultimately chose a different path it surely would have been a catastrophe...I remember thinking at the time there was not enough money in the world to compensate this guy for what he had done...saving the lives of 250 people on that night....you're right we have done it to ourselves.....but sadly those pilots who will pay the biggest price are in fact those that are trying so hard to tear things apart....

[Guest WA777]

Don...30 years ago, while flying as a DC-10 F/E, I found myself involved in a very dangerous incident....at the time both the the F/O and I made the wrong choice....if it were not for the many years of experience of the Captain, who ultimately chose a different path it surely would have been a catastrophe...I remember thinking at the time there was not enough money in the world to compensate this guy for what he had done...saving the lives of 250 people on that night....you're right we have done it to ourselves.....but sadly those pilots who will pay the biggest price are in fact those that are trying so hard to tear things apart....

[Guest jazzplayer]

Don, an excellent and articulate post. I hope that Labtec gets the message. It really makes me angry to have this profession belittled and marginalized by some wanker who has "issues" and spews it all over a public forum. Personally I have sacrificed a great deal to get to this "lowly" position and was lucky to live through some of it (some of my colleagues from previous jobs didn't). The tide will turn again and with some work on our parts and a great deal of good PR we can turn this profession back into what it once was. BTW I do disagree on one point however, ACPA is still evil;)

[Guest Dockjock]

Quality of life, and risk I feel have been shoved by the wayside by people like Labtec. ie. Quality of life can easily stink, until you are senior. And the risk of losing your job every year/6 mo due medical reasons has to be taken into account in the pay. Not just "you work 10 days a month driving a bus". If it were just driving a bus, then hey sure a 340 captain should make $150K as long as they only worked 9-5 M-F. But they don't, and quality of life is made up for with higher pay (or used to be anyway).

[CAT3DUAL]

Or as my dad use to say, "You don't get payed for what goes right, you get paid for what goes wrong."

[Guest easyjazz]

Nice post jazzplayer.Well spoken and to the point.

No question though on the "ACPA is not EVIL"

statement... purely false!! ACPA is still the most evil of all...whoa...really scary stuff:)

[Don Hudson]

Jazzplayer;

We all lost friends along the way, didn't we? No other profession shares this unique aspect: you can die and so can a lot of other people if one doesn't pay attention.

Its an aspect and a profession little understood. These days the beancounters seem to have the support of the flying public, the shareholders, the media and even the government in destroying what's left of this fine profession.

Trouble is, the one law everyone always forgets while counting beans and bashing those who keep aviation safe is that sooner or later in aviation, you get exactly what you pay for.

I saw an article on CTV (I think it was) regarding the desparate time the Canadian Air Force is having recruiting new pilots to fly their fighters. Nobody wants the job. Nobody! And why? They can use their intelligence and talents to make a better life and make more money outside of aviation, so why bother with the hassle and the Walmart-ization of the career.

Very soon, the airlines will be expanding again. The Canadian Forces already are suffering a significant pilot shortage. The airlines may be able to find "candidates" for someone will always go into flying and try to make a career out of it, but...

But the destruction of proper wages, proper working conditions, (and in the case of duty days, safe working conditions) and the disastrous threat and in some cases actual destruction of pilot pensions (UAL and USAirways) which make recovery for a pilot next to impossible after a lifetime of dedicated work all will factor in future pilots' decisions to take up the career.

Pay FWYC (Fries-With-Yer-Coke) wages for the huge investment that it takes to even be taken seriously as a pilot in this industry and the supply of qualified, capable candidates will simply dry up. I cannot prove it, but in my opinion, there are flight safety aspects to this trend as well, but in deference to Political Correctness, its wiser not to publicly discuss candidate quality, capability or fitness for airline work as it relates to pay scale, career attractiveness, present support for, and future prospects for the profession.

ACPA evil?

Well...the word "evil" is a very powerful, very strong word which should be used sparingly if ever, and when it is, it should be reserved for the most heinous of human crimes. Hitler was evil as are some recent dictators, but ACPA? I don't think so.

But at the same time, I know what the intention is and while I can't agree with that intention because there are faults on both sides, I, like many, would rather see a solution and a confrontation because the latter only serves to further the employer's own goals of dissent in the ranks which encourages the now-famous race-to-the-bottom.

Pilots are naturally insecure about their profession. One look around will tell any obsverver with a even a mild interest in human affairs why this is so. So when the work shrinks, we get very territorial and use every tool we can to preserve what we have, not because of greed but because of the unique inability to replace what we have worked so long and hard to achieve.

As the legally constituted bargaining agent for AC pilots, ACPA is required to fight for its memberships well-being. We know scope is a huge issue and has been since de-regulation. No airline pilot group has found the silver bullet which puts this problem to bed for good. Connector pilots wish to move to larger equipment (not all, but most) to make more money or whatever, and mainline pilots wish to protect their work against any "incursion". To me, the solution is to put all groups together, but I am neither naive nor inexperienced and I realize the difficulties and impediments in doing so. The "greater good" is a difficult concept to embrace when one's work and commensurate salary is on the table, especially these days when the employer has signalled that it will pit one group against the other with attempted impunity.

Perhaps like any other problem, it will be solved through growth. I hope so for our profession's sake.

Kind regards,

Don

[Guest Terminated]

Good thoughts, Don. This is an interesting thread, that I could ramble on about for a while. But having too many other things to do, I will just ask one question.

As an outsider, it appears that Raymond Hall, as MEC chair, was more of a moderate in dealing with the company. It also appears the current ACPA MEC leadership are more 'hawks', like Rumsfeld and Bush compared to Powell, with a shoot first, talk later kind of mentality.

I fully support the Jazz MEC's current actions, because, well, they really had no choice the way history has evolved. It seemed to be more of an inevitability, than a surprise. Having said that, I want more than ever to see a long term solution, that moves towards restoring better compensation, and the professional respect our group (pilots) deserve.

So my question really is, do you feel the current ACPA leadership are capable of working towards a solution, considering the difficulty of the situation? Getting mad and walking out will not find the path to success in such a sensitive environment.

Knowing you will not say "no they aren't", I am still interested in hearing your thoughts.

Thanks

[Guest Labtec]

Don:

The trend in the business is as you suggest. The market has spoken and the market has stated that low fares, no frills service are the way to go. The market is refusing to pay the quarter million dollars per year for the 340 Captain. Those who receive this money currently will be the last in Canada to ever do so.

Air Canada's closest competitor in terms of size is Westjet. In terms of non-speculative compensation they receive half of what we get at Air Canada to do the identical job. When Canadian was around they paid less than AC but it was fairly close. There isn't another company in Canada that pays its pilots even remotely close to the wage we are paid. How long do you think AC can hold out?

I have to tell you the preceding arguments are not arguments that I believe in my heart of hearts. Nevertheless it has been interesting to see what people have come to the table with to justify their positions. So far we have had a few pilots adopt your position. A few F/A's agreed with me and only got upset when I suggested their position did not require any particular skill.

The arguments in favour of huge pilot salaries are as follows:

1. It requires a massive amount of training, skill, and experience in order to be qualified to become an Airline pilot.

2.Airline pilots operate 100 million dollar airplanes and in the case of the wide body may have 400+ lives in their hands attracting a potentially huge liablility should something go wrong.

3.While we have, through our ingenuity and talent, created systems to effectively deal with the routine aspects of the job in a safe and efficient manner, it is not these routine duties that attract the high level of compensation. It is the single time that things fall apart and we are asked to draw on our years of experience to see things through to a desirable conclusion.

Now, what have we done at Air Canada as pilots to ensure the viability of the preceding arguments? Absolutely nothing. This new contract protects the top end, the guys like you and me who have lots of time in and have had a really good life flying around the world as a airline pilots. We have decimated the bottom end on the CL65 any new 50-110 seat jet we might see arriving in the months and years to come and we have chipped away the narrow body flying by agreeing to the work rules at ZIP. Tagged to all of this is a 15% wage cut.

In the end we did this to ensure the pensions remain intact for you and I when we retire in the not to distant future. I ask you though what have we done to the pilots further down on the seniority list? My neighbour is a CL65 F/O and he tells me that he will earn a little over 40K because of this new deal. That is less than the F/A handing out the terrible food. What have we done?

This deal and these choices were negotiated and made by pilots for pilots and ratified by 87% of those pilots. The race to the bottom was done by a complicit group who have just undermined their futures.

What has been done to the wage scale of the aircraft under 110 seats is a travesty. The next time you walk into the crew room and see a CL65 crew be mindful of the choice we have made for them. You earn nearly a quarter of a million dollars to fly 10 days per month doing some of the least taxing aviating at the company. These crews on these smaller airplanes work a hell of allot harder than we do on the widebodies and they are now getting paid, in some cases, less than the F/A or the lead driving the tractor.

If you think that allowing this to occur won't have a negative impact upon the high paying wide body jobs you have blown a gasket. You can't have two guys doing virtually the same job one getting 43k/year and another (in the case of a 340 F/O) getting 150k/year and think that this is going to be allowed to continue. It cannot be justified in any logical way.

I certainly do not want to see this end up the way its headed, but based upon the way things are going today and in the last 20 or so years I feel the good times are just about over. Thank goodness I am gone in three years.

Labtec

[Guest Labtec]

Don:

The trend in the business is as you suggest. The market has spoken and the market has stated that low fares, no frills service are the way to go. The market is refusing to pay the quarter million dollars per year for the 340 Captain. Those who receive this money currently will be the last in Canada to ever do so.

Air Canada's closest competitor in terms of size is Westjet. In terms of non-speculative compensation they receive half of what we get at Air Canada to do the identical job. When Canadian was around they paid less than AC but it was fairly close. There isn't another company in Canada that pays its pilots even remotely close to the wage we are paid. How long do you think AC can hold out?

I have to tell you the preceding arguments are not arguments that I believe in my heart of hearts. Nevertheless it has been interesting to see what people have come to the table with to justify their positions. So far we have had a few pilots adopt your position. A few F/A's agreed with me and only got upset when I suggested their position did not require any particular skill.

The arguments in favour of huge pilot salaries are as follows:

1. It requires a massive amount of training, skill, and experience in order to be qualified to become an Airline pilot.

2.Airline pilots operate 100 million dollar airplanes and in the case of the wide body may have 400+ lives in their hands attracting a potentially huge liablility should something go wrong.

3.While we have, through our ingenuity and talent, created systems to effectively deal with the routine aspects of the job in a safe and efficient manner, it is not these routine duties that attract the high level of compensation. It is the single time that things fall apart and we are asked to draw on our years of experience to see things through to a desirable conclusion.

Now, what have we done at Air Canada as pilots to ensure the viability of the preceding arguments? Absolutely nothing. This new contract protects the top end, the guys like you and me who have lots of time in and have had a really good life flying around the world as a airline pilots. We have decimated the bottom end on the CL65 any new 50-110 seat jet we might see arriving in the months and years to come and we have chipped away the narrow body flying by agreeing to the work rules at ZIP. Tagged to all of this is a 15% wage cut.

In the end we did this to ensure the pensions remain intact for you and I when we retire in the not to distant future. I ask you though what have we done to the pilots further down on the seniority list? My neighbour is a CL65 F/O and he tells me that he will earn a little over 40K because of this new deal. That is less than the F/A handing out the terrible food. What have we done?

This deal and these choices were negotiated and made by pilots for pilots and ratified by 87% of those pilots. The race to the bottom was done by a complicit group who have just undermined their futures.

What has been done to the wage scale of the aircraft under 110 seats is a travesty. The next time you walk into the crew room and see a CL65 crew be mindful of the choice we have made for them. You earn nearly a quarter of a million dollars to fly 10 days per month doing some of the least taxing aviating at the company. These crews on these smaller airplanes work a hell of allot harder than we do on the widebodies and they are now getting paid, in some cases, less than the F/A or the lead driving the tractor.

If you think that allowing this to occur won't have a negative impact upon the high paying wide body jobs you have blown a gasket. You can't have two guys doing virtually the same job one getting 43k/year and another (in the case of a 340 F/O) getting 150k/year and think that this is going to be allowed to continue. It cannot be justified in any logical way.

I certainly do not want to see this end up the way its headed, but based upon the way things are going today and in the last 20 or so years I feel the good times are just about over. Thank goodness I am gone in three years.

Labtec

[cavok]

Or as I've heard, "Pilots aren't get paid for what they do, pilots are paid for what they know how to do."

[DEFCON]

What about the guy screwing nuts on a car frame at Ford for 30 something an hour? What about the 120K drywaller in YYZ? What about the 70+K city parks grass cutter. And who should the world aviation community blame?...the AC pilots!!!

[DEFCON]

"There are guys that work for the mainline that are practicing doctors for heavens sake. If the job is that demanding how are they able to juggle both careers?"

You might ask the same of that individual as a "dr."

[duckedy]

Chico.....well said!

[duckedy]

Chico.....well said!