Guest Labtec Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Many of you are out there bashing the Air Canada Pilots Association and their conduct in the recent negotiations with the Corporation. The massive work that was done by both the company and the union to basically rewrite a 500 page contract was nothing short of miraculous given the time constraints imposed by the court. It took right up to the opening up of the voting period to get the language correct, have it reviewed by the lawyers, and then printed and distributed to the membership. There was no brinksmanship. The court, and Justice Winkler, had emphatically indicated that pensions were not to be touched under any circumstance and they remained intact. The original proposal by the Corporation was to see these pensions decimated. Apparently, we don't do that in Canada. As a result other creative ways had to be developed to meet the aggressive cost cutting targets. This is what took all of the time. It boils down to the fact that our contract is incredibly complicated and required a significant amount of time and attention to get right. There are alot of pilot haters on this forum. It is unbelievable the number of vitriolic comments made by many of the posters on this board. If you substituted Black man for ACPA or Pilot in some of these posts, the posters would be found and charged under the criminal code for attempting to incite hatred and producing hate propaganda. The aviation profession was a great one, but alas it has breathed its last breath as a once proud profession. Pilots were respected and the job was highly sought after. I think now pilots are little more than bus drivers. It has been difficult for many to come to this realization and there are many pilots that have not accepted this fact. The pay, the working conditions, and the general lack of respect the front end gets here and at work by fellow employees and customers makes one wonder where it all went wrong. Nevertheless, it is like driving a bus. It requires a little more skill but certainly not enough to justify paying the bus driver a quarter of a million dollars per year. Even the JAZZ pilots are horribly overpaid. They earn 90+ thousand per year to fly an RJ or a dash-8, a job that should pay them no more than 60,000 per year. It is time to accept the fact that pilots are paid to much and work to little. People in other industries that earn a good dollar work for it. Doctors that make 250,000/year typically work 6 days a week. Lawyers in the same income range work 60hours per week. It is silly and foolish to pay airline people a similar wage to fly 14 days per month and if you are senior may be 10. This is going to stop. It is not just ACPA pilots but JAZZ pilots et al as well. A good friend of mine just returned from the middle east. Canadian pilots are some of the most despised pilots on the planet by other expat nationals in places like Qatar, Dubai and Bahrain. We are generally viewed as having lowered the bar to knee level in this country. The tragedy is that for those expat nationals from elsewhere our antics here have affected them in their home countries and abroad in terms of wages and working conditions that are available. This is no longer a career it is a job. I don't think that we can, any longer, justify paying a widebody captain $250,000 per year. He or she just isn't worth that much. The job as far as I can tell is worth about 85,000 per year and that's it (This seems to be the market rate in Canada). The First officer by extension is worth about 45,000 per year. This will have a trickle down effect. The days of paying a biscuit shooter 70,000 to hand out cookies is also coming to an end. The Market rate for young attractive F/A's at Jetsgo, Canjet and others is about 30k/year. Sales agents should make no more than a cashier at Wal-mart. The cashier makes about $8.00/hr. Think about whose job has a greater level of responsibility? The cashier at Wal-mart that handles money or the sales agent at Air Canada that scans a ticket? It makes no sense to pay these people $24/hr to do what you can get a housewife that works at Wal-mart to do for 2 bucks above minimum wage. The same comments maybe echoed for our "leads" and ramp workers who spend their days throwing bags into the belly of airplanes. This is no more difficult a job than "shipper/receiver" and that typically pays about 10 bucks an hour. Are pilots overpaid. I have come to believe that we are. Interestingly, I think for the level of education and skill that most of us bring to the airline industry we are all overpaid and I really think that little by little this articially high salary level will come down in the months and years to come. The paying customer demands cheap fares with no frills service. In order to supply the market with what it wants all of our wages must come down to more reasonable levels. I will say that it is incredibly expensive to become a pilot it takes about $30000 to get a basic licence. With the salaries coming down at such a rapid and furious rate I think the way we train and develop aviators must change. No one is going to drop all of that money on training in order to earn a below average salary. The airlines will have to shoulder some of the cost and develop cadet programs where an 18 year old high school grad enters the program and learns the trade over a number of years. I don't even think you need high school to be a pilot I know several narrow body captains that dropped out in grade 10. It is about time we accept this and move on. The trend tragically has implications for all of the different people who work at an airline. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Your posting is very well said but you blew it by calling the F/A's "Biscuit shooters". Now you wonder why there are pilot haters ?? Did you have to say that ? And then to put the icing on the cake you talk about "an young attractive F/A at Jetsgo, Canjet etc. Your true personality is sure shining through. "Yes", you have offended me significantly. Too bad because you seemed like an intelligent person at the beginning of your posting. Peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 "oops" I do have to apologize for I realized that you are JUST a Labtec. So I take back what I said about that wondering why there are pilot haters. I should have figured out sooner that you are NOT a pilot for most pilots have respect for there entire crew. Peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 " a little more difficult than driving a bus"? The heat must be getting to you. Consider the amount of training required just to get the "learner's permit". Consider the amount of training required to achieve and maintain airline transport status. Take a look around you and consider the calibre of the individuals who make it this far. I used to chum around with a couple oral-maxillofacial surgeons, an orthopedic surgeon and a lawyer. Most of the people I work with at Air Canada would have succeeded in any of those fields. I'm not sure if my friends would have cut it in our profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 LOL...you obviously have no clue what Labtec was talking about..........swoooshhhhhhh.....right over your head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Thank you Peanuts, you beat me to it. The job you folks do is admirable. SARS, 911,... thank God Mad Cows can't book a seat. Now with the door bolted shut, you are on your own, truly. Your job is getting tougher, in a challenging climate. Hats off to the F/A group. V1V2Vgo (A Pilot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "swoooooooshhhh", right back at ya ! Because it is apparent that you can not read. I said that his posting was good untill he started to put the F/A position down. He didn't have to do that. I see you are in a better mood then earlier. Found your Prozac did you ? Now can we stop the childish behavior. I will too ! Peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Hey buddie its Gonna be OK. I guess all of the negativity just got to you. It happens, don't worry, the sun will come up tomorrow if you work at Wal Mart or Air Canada. Just try and concentrate on your spiritual side, relax, try and calm down. Remember, the important things in life are free. Go ahead cry if you feel you need to, its allright for a man to cry nowadays. We are all pulling for you old Labbie, hang in there buddie things will get better . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 727driver Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I hear labtec's frustration with the industry right now .I say wait two years .As for anybody can do the job on my course the the guy who finished last had an MBA then failed three sim rides and was let go. He was paired up with two ex military types who only had high school. They sailed through the course mostly on beer as I remember. Labtec your comments about F/A's are in poor taste to say the least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Working at Wal-mart as a cashier is a tough job; So is being a waitress. Hell, so is working in a hog barn. We don't glorify those positions. I think we need to stop this mamby pamby touchy feely cr@p. Flight attendants serve drinks and hand out really terrible food. A waitress has to earn her tips and if the food is bad they don't get one. F/A's hand out the food by seat row and there is little incentive to do a really good job. Even if you are terrible at your job it is nearly impossible to get fired unless you steal or kill someone. How many emergencies have you been in peanuts? Most pilots would answer about the same number as you. Next to none. My guess is the bulk of your time is spent mimicking a waitress and the rest is spent in the galley gossiping with the rest of the hens. In the unlikely event you will be called upon in a catastophic incident al la Sioux City Iowa your chance of surviving to carry out the actions in your silent review is slim to none. Lucky for both you and I that modern aircraft are seriously over engineered and the chance of a failure such as Sioux City is about a billion to one. If you think what you do deserves 62.50/hour you are nuts. My argument is that we glorify these positions in order to justify the exhoribitant salaries they pay. The average F/A earns about 45-55K and works 8-15 days per month. You think this level of effort demands that wage. You feel your level of education and training should have you earning as much as a nurse? Nurses actually do something positive for others. They do a hell of alot more than hand out soft drinks, terrible food and ensure the table tray is stowed for take-off. My point is that the level of effort and education that are required for any of these positions including PILOT do not necessitate these outrageous salaries. Effectively I drive a bus load of people through the sky and get paid a silly amount of money to do it. I only work about 14 days per month. I really don't think a widebody captain at Air Canada or anywhere for that matter is worth 250,000/year. The senior guy that does this job works 10 days per month and flies about 10 sectors. MCDU delude yourself if you want, but one way or another these wages are coming down and if you step back and look at what lawyers and doctors do to earn the same money we are hugely overpaid. If you are on the airBUS (they chose that name for a reason) it is probably the easiest way to earn a nickel in the world today. There are guys that work for the mainline that are practicing doctors for heavens sake. If the job is that demanding how are they able to juggle both careers? In this era of low fares I think it is time that the salaries were lowered to match what the market demands. One way or another this will occur. We can do it voluntarily or keep the wages high and have the company back in bankruptcy protection in a few years doing the same thing all over again. It is about time we all take a good look around and realize how out of line the wages and working conditions are in this business. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Working at Wal-mart as a cashier is a tough job; So is being a waitress. Hell, so is working in a hog barn. We don't glorify those positions. I think we need to stop this mamby pamby touchy feely cr@p. Flight attendants serve drinks and hand out really terrible food. A waitress has to earn her tips and if the food is bad they don't get one. F/A's hand out the food by seat row and there is little incentive to do a really good job. Even if you are terrible at your job it is nearly impossible to get fired unless you steal or kill someone. How many emergencies have you been in peanuts? Most pilots would answer about the same number as you. Next to none. My guess is the bulk of your time is spent mimicking a waitress and the rest is spent in the galley gossiping with the rest of the hens. In the unlikely event you will be called upon in a catastophic incident al la Sioux City Iowa your chance of surviving to carry out the actions in your silent review is slim to none. Lucky for both you and I that modern aircraft are seriously over engineered and the chance of a failure such as Sioux City is about a billion to one. If you think what you do deserves 62.50/hour you are nuts. My argument is that we glorify these positions in order to justify the exhoribitant salaries they pay. The average F/A earns about 45-55K and works 8-15 days per month. You think this level of effort demands that wage. You feel your level of education and training should have you earning as much as a nurse? Nurses actually do something positive for others. They do a hell of alot more than hand out soft drinks, terrible food and ensure the table tray is stowed for take-off. My point is that the level of effort and education that are required for any of these positions including PILOT do not necessitate these outrageous salaries. Effectively I drive a bus load of people through the sky and get paid a silly amount of money to do it. I only work about 14 days per month. I really don't think a widebody captain at Air Canada or anywhere for that matter is worth 250,000/year. The senior guy that does this job works 10 days per month and flies about 10 sectors. MCDU delude yourself if you want, but one way or another these wages are coming down and if you step back and look at what lawyers and doctors do to earn the same money we are hugely overpaid. If you are on the airBUS (they chose that name for a reason) it is probably the easiest way to earn a nickel in the world today. There are guys that work for the mainline that are practicing doctors for heavens sake. If the job is that demanding how are they able to juggle both careers? In this era of low fares I think it is time that the salaries were lowered to match what the market demands. One way or another this will occur. We can do it voluntarily or keep the wages high and have the company back in bankruptcy protection in a few years doing the same thing all over again. It is about time we all take a good look around and realize how out of line the wages and working conditions are in this business. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "Even if you are terrible at your job it is nearly impossible to get fired unless you steal or kill someone." Actually, stealing is apparently OK. Killing, you may be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 MCDU delude yourself if you want, but one way or another these wages are coming down and if you step back and look at what lawyers and doctors do to earn the same money we are hugely overpaid. If you are on the airBUS (they chose that name for a reason) it is probably the easiest way to earn a nickel in the world today. I am very familiar with what doctors and lawyers "do" to earn their money. I'm also very familiar with what I've put into my own career and the legal responsibilities I carry each and every time I sign a flight plan or strap myself into a seat. Every 6 months I have to prove that I have what it takes- no matter what breaks or who screws up. You minimize what you "do" and I am responding that almost anything can be easy when you've been trained to do it and you've been practising for a while. One of my surgeon friends used to say "I saw people's jaws off, then I re-attach them. That's pretty much it." BTW, the practising pilot-doctors only fly half-blocks, a special deal between company and association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "Killing, you may be correct." I think you'll have to be more specific. Are we talking passengers, fellow employees, spouses.... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Can we nominate someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Hmmm, yes indeed. I see how that may make a difference.. I'll have to get back to you on that one.. Happy Canada Day to you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Once again I agree with you , but you don't need to name call do you ?? I, myself have been thankfully in only one full evacuation emergency, and hope it will remain at one for the rest of my time at this job. Have had many other incidents which were not the kind that a pub waitress would have to deal with. Gee, at least she makes lots of tips ! I hear you loud and clear though. I would rather have a job where I use my brains, and am planning on going back to school in September. I also do NOT get paid 45-55k per year. The most I have made was 41k and that was because of lots of OT. I wish I only worked 8-15 days per month but I don't, it's about 19-21 days. All that you mention is true in many cases just don't put all of us in that categorie. I also am still young and maybe even a bit attractive Regardless of all of this. Like I said, I hear you very clearly. Just don't feel there was a reason to insult us. It hurst !!! Peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Labtecs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 MCDU: I used to argue your point of view. This recent episode at AC has made me re-think things. I understand what you are saying, but I think that if you can get guys into the left seat of an MD80 or 737 for 60K/year or a widebody for 87k/year then I think we are deluding ourselves into believing we are justified in earning these huge salaries. The lower paid pilots aren't less capable. They meet the same standard prescribed by law we do. What then justifies a quarter million dollars to fly a 340 10 days per month? Your legal responsibilites are limited as an employee of Air Canada. You will not personally be sued for any negligent act that harms your passengers or fellow workers. The company will be sued and if it is a fellow employee their right to sue is statute barred by federal workers compensation legislation. In any event the company will settle and you will be dismissed. That is the way it works. A lawyer, particularly a litigator, is tested in the way you suggest we are every time she steps into court. A doctor similarly every time they cut someone open (if they are a surgeon). If you have the time convince me otherwise. There are alot of employee's at AC that want to see the pilots knocked off what they perceive is a pedestal that is happening right now. What they fail to realize if we aren't justified in earning our salaries then their's ought to come down as well. My contention after this recent series of events at AC and JAZZ is that the wages in the pointy end must come down. If they come down then so to must those for everyone else in the operation. I really do think that 10 days per month for 250,000/year is bloody ridiculous. The wide body captain at AC is earning just shy of $2100/day! On a western route he'll sleep for about 25% of his time in the tube! For that kind of money the guy ought to be working 6 days a week. If he is legally prohibited from sitting in the seat in excess of his ten days per month then he ought to be in the office helping to administrate the operation. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Hey Labtec, You sound extremely bitter and twisted and what you have mentioned urks me the best of times too. However, steps are being taken to change some of those issues and wages DID take a roll back. It is nice to know that I am not the only one who feels that some, once again some of the mainline drivers seem to get paid just a tat toooooooooo much for the job they do. Some, not ALL. A cruise pilot, which is a junior position (I believe) should not get paid the amount of money they do for the sleeping they do. Could you just take back the "Biscuit shooter" comment and I'll have respect for you again ! Because your views are a lot like mine, simply don't like being put down. Peanuts By the way, what is it exactly you do ? And do you feel that your wage is accurate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rance Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Labtec i love guys like you that throw around pilot salary figures of 250k per year. what % of pilots in canada make that wage? 1 - 5%???Why not deal with the other side of the wage figures like how a 2 year f/o makes 32k per year at jazz. Maybe the government should apoint you to decide all the salaries for all professions in canada. Hey teachers... Labtec feels your worth 25k per year and you mr.fireman... sorry labtec only thinks you should make 30k per year.I'm sure all salaries will be indexed to greyhounds pay roll. I guess you and adam smith would have gotten along famously, why let the freemarket determine wages hey labtec. By the way no one seems to complain about pilots salaries on those nights when the weather is stormy or the plane is on fire or one engine....why is that?? p.s try some of those relaxation tapes...might make you feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I wasn't referring to being sued when I was speaking of legal responsibilities. Sit in on the ITC legal briefing sometime. It lasts about 2 hours and most participants walk out thinking that they no longer want to be pilots. Suffice to say, you are making some pretty big promises when you take people into the wild blue yonder. You'd better know your stuff. As for the rest- you are mixing ideas of perceived value, education and negotiated remuneration. Our situation isn't pure in any of those respects, it mostly boils down to what the market will bear. Pilots at Canjet or Jetsgo making $80k is a symptom of an oversupply of qualified applicants, not what these individuals are "worth". We can argue forever about the value of any job, how hard someone works and what they should be paid. Frank Stronach, the guy who runs auto- parts maker Magna, made $58.1 million last year. Vince Carter has a $13M USD per year deal. Is either worth it? You'd probably get many different answers here on the forum. I have a school friend who is a family physician. He feels that he's worth a lot more than what the Ontario government pays him. I happen to agree, and he'd get a lot more in a free market system, but he's part of a captive audience. It's not going to happen in our socialistic system. Personally, knowing what those wide-body captains have been through, their training, education, experience and what their responsibilities entail, I don't think $250 is too much. But it doesn't really matter what I think or what you think. What matters is how much demand exists for their skills and whether an employer is able to make a profit while employing those skills. In that last respect, yes, you're right. Those wages are going to come down. That's still no reason to minimize the profession. Anyway, it's late, and I have to go flying in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Fair enough Peanuts. You come up front and do the the next emergency descent from FL 370 for me and I will serve the drinks and meals for you. I would probably require about 2 weeks...we'll see you in what?, hmmm four to five years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I don't think that 48,000 is too much for a pilot, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cormacward Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "A cruise pilot, which is a junior position (I believe) should not get paid the amount of money they do for the SLEEPING they do." Ya! That is what we do........LMAO! For you info I make under $50K a year and I rarely sleep in the a/c bunk. The CRP position was designed and implemented for safety! We are trained to the same level as the other 2/3 crew members if not more. Apparently you do not suffer from fatigue so therefore I will try to address this issue with you as you are obviously immune to it. If you need someone to take your anger out on .....I suggest point your finger at professional athletes....but then the average Canadian would rather pay more to watch hockey game than fly safely....... Thank you for reminding me why I have not posted or read this forum for as long as I remember... Off to look for work....hope you enjoy your career or at least find something you that makes you happy.... ) Happy C-day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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