SimBoy Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I've had it with you folks! Flying a plane is a trade and not a profession. You get a licence and apprentice through the ranks to fly bigger and bigger planes. You do not, personally, hold the majority of the liability - the company does. The machines you operate are very safe and the industry is highly regulated. You are not heros, just highly skilled tradesmen and women. Get a grip on reality, will ya? How many of you have doctorates in aviation? You keep talking about how skilled you are... the majority of your "skill" comes from the engineers who designed the planes you fly and have made them very "pilot-proof". Remember, the majority of accidents today are the result of CFIT, not wing-spars breaking. If pilots had their greedy act together, they would look to other trades and create a national seniority list so the *BS* that you now put yourselves through would disappear. ACPA, this is NOT a negotiation - its survival. I hope you all realize what the implications of being on EI are and that cutting off your nose to spite you face will only get you a mutilated face. Smarten-up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillyBigToe Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Oh ya? Just ask my five year old, I am so a hero!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJ Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 5 year olds are also as self envolved as ACPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BAE 146 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I'm glad your son thinks you are a hero, however if the pilots union puts 35,000 people out of work you will not find many people that will agree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BAE 146 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I'm glad your son thinks you are a hero, however if the pilots union puts 35,000 people out of work you will not find many people that will agree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Look buddy ... I understand your anger, but you have not even the slightest idea of what your talking about. Condemn ACPA for it's position all you want if you disagree with it, but if you think that the "skill" that makes all this run comes from engineers that make airplanes "pilot proof", you obviously have never spent any time in a cockpit. There are plenty of approaches completed daily that no auto-pilot or wonderbus in the world can fly for you. Without the people who make that happen in a safe and reliable manner, this industry would not exist, and you too would have no job. Let me take you down to Cheju Island where the wind blows up crosswinds of 30 to 50 knots along with turbulence and windshears that make you feel one moment that you'll fall out of the sky and the next that you're headed to the moon. Now we'll try to fly down through all of that on a truly crappy day in order to make a landing that will probably come down to a split second decision based on a combination of skills, judgement and instinct that took a career to build. I guarantee you that if you were in that seat at that moment you would have a very clear understanding of exactly whose skill it is that makes all of this work and that the skill you deride is a far more precious commodity than you had ever imagined. And as for liability, how much does one need to hold? Is not the final responsibility for the lives of one's passengers and crew, not to mention your own life, a "liability" beyond price. As it stands, if you are the captain, God forbid you be wrong, because if you survive, jail (very likely in many places) is the very least of your worries. So go ahead and tell ACPA their position is wrong if that's your opinion, just don't pretend for a minute you actually know what skill it is that those pilots bring bring to the table unless you've spent a good portion of your time sitting in the left seat of one of AC's aircraft. Pete PS - I do not work AC, or even in Canada for that matter. I'm simply someone who has a good idea of what that skill you dismiss is really worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Look buddy ... I understand your anger, but you have not even the slightest idea of what your talking about. Condemn ACPA for it's position all you want if you disagree with it, but if you think that the "skill" that makes all this run comes from engineers that make airplanes "pilot proof", you obviously have never spent any time in a cockpit. There are plenty of approaches completed daily that no auto-pilot or wonderbus in the world can fly for you. Without the people who make that happen in a safe and reliable manner, this industry would not exist, and you too would have no job. Let me take you down to Cheju Island where the wind blows up crosswinds of 30 to 50 knots along with turbulence and windshears that make you feel one moment that you'll fall out of the sky and the next that you're headed to the moon. Now we'll try to fly down through all of that on a truly crappy day in order to make a landing that will probably come down to a split second decision based on a combination of skills, judgement and instinct that took a career to build. I guarantee you that if you were in that seat at that moment you would have a very clear understanding of exactly whose skill it is that makes all of this work and that the skill you deride is a far more precious commodity than you had ever imagined. And as for liability, how much does one need to hold? Is not the final responsibility for the lives of one's passengers and crew, not to mention your own life, a "liability" beyond price. As it stands, if you are the captain, God forbid you be wrong, because if you survive, jail (very likely in many places) is the very least of your worries. So go ahead and tell ACPA their position is wrong if that's your opinion, just don't pretend for a minute you actually know what skill it is that those pilots bring bring to the table unless you've spent a good portion of your time sitting in the left seat of one of AC's aircraft. Pete PS - I do not work AC, or even in Canada for that matter. I'm simply someone who has a good idea of what that skill you dismiss is really worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Look buddy ... I understand your anger, but you have not even the slightest idea of what your talking about. Condemn ACPA for it's position all you want if you disagree with it, but if you think that the "skill" that makes all this run comes from engineers that make airplanes "pilot proof", you obviously have never spent any time in a cockpit. There are plenty of approaches completed daily that no auto-pilot or wonderbus in the world can fly for you. Without the people who make that happen in a safe and reliable manner, this industry would not exist, and you too would have no job. Let me take you down to Cheju Island where the wind blows up crosswinds of 30 to 50 knots along with turbulence and windshears that make you feel one moment that you'll fall out of the sky and the next that you're headed to the moon. Now we'll try to fly down through all of that on a truly crappy day in order to make a landing that will probably come down to a split second decision based on a combination of skills, judgement and instinct that took a career to build. I guarantee you that if you were in that seat at that moment you would have a very clear understanding of exactly whose skill it is that makes all of this work and that the skill you deride is a far more precious commodity than you had ever imagined. And as for liability, how much does one need to hold? Is not the final responsibility for the lives of one's passengers and crew, not to mention your own life, a "liability" beyond price. As it stands, if you are the captain, God forbid you be wrong, because if you survive, jail (very likely in many places) is the very least of your worries. So go ahead and tell ACPA their position is wrong if that's your opinion, just don't pretend for a minute you actually know what skill it is that those pilots bring bring to the table unless you've spent a good portion of your time sitting in the left seat of one of AC's aircraft. Pete PS - I do not work AC, or even in Canada for that matter. I'm simply someone who has a good idea of what that skill you dismiss is really worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimBoy Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 Don't skew the tread, please, with innane comments. Did you not get what I was saying??? Explain this to your kid when you are unemployed. Geez! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimBoy Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 I have 12000 hours, 18 years of airline experience (none with AC), a 73A endorsement, and an understanding of things that seems to ellude you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aBusDriver Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 You seem to be an aviation expert. Care to explain the logic behind a rampie who gets in excess of $24/hr for loading bags???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RJP Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Dear simboy; Perhaps you should get out of the sim and into the real world more often. Flying an airplane is my trade, my profession and my career. I didn't just get my licence; I paid for it with many years of training and testing. I paid for it with a line of credit that totalled over $30,000 (many years ago). I risk that investment every 6 months when I put my licence on the line to prove to the authorities that I can manage emergencies and abnormal operations. I risk the medical authority for that licence 1-2 times a year when anal probing confirms that I am healthy enough to continue my career. I risk that investment anytime a Government inspector decides to sit 2 feet behind me and stare over my shoulder for hours while I once again prove my competency. Our apprenticeship is not just going down to the local factory; it is driving all over the country to find that first job. It is years in the bush, or in the north slogging about building time to get to "the show". It is 45-gallon drums, Herman nelson heaters and drunken fishermen. It is washing, fuelling, cleaning, loading and unloading airplanes. The liability for my performance may rest in some cases with the company, but the responsibility, my friend rests with me. In many foreign countries the pilots are thrown in jail until proven innocent. I agree that the planes I now fly are very safe, and I agree that the engineers made them that way and the mechanics keep them that way. And I thank you as I do everyday on the line, if you are one of those fine gentlemen (or ladies). But, unfortunately they are not there when the compressor lets loose at 160Kts going down a runway. They are not there when it is gusting 50 kts across the snow-covered runway. They are not there when the crazed terrorist attacks the cockpit with knives. They are not there when the weather is down and the gas is low. They have done their job and now it is my turn. This is what I have trained to do. I am not a hero, but as you say I am a highly skilled tradesman, and I am good at what I do. And as a matter of fact there are many pilots with many doctorates. But they are real keeners. A sweeping statement like "the majority of accidents are the result of CFIT" shows a lack of understanding of the complexities of accident investigation. I must admit, the majority of accidents have a certain degree of "pilot error" involved, but there are many factors that are also involved. So if only us pilots would get our greedy act together....everything would be fine. Well in a perfect world, we would have one list. It has been tried and it has failed. New ideas, new personalities and a new generation may solve this problem, but it will not happen tomorrow by midnight. To end my rantings here, I leave you with this. It IS negotiation and we are negotiating OUR survival. ACPA is the hold out because that is the way the company wanted it. The company hopes for postings like yours, and for peer pressure to come to bear. It is a planned strategy, which is designed to weaken ACPA's position, but they are doing the opposite. ACPA is together like never before, we are trained to handle emergencies in a calm and orderly fashion, that is what we are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillyBigToe Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 It's clear that you do not understand what the company wants from us. If you did you might see it is worth fighting against. So far no one has brought the company to down, closer perhaps but not down. And don't think for a minute that we like this any better than you do, but we MUST have a deal we can live with. If you have reached that with the company, good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I get it Pete.... I wish I'd experienced a tenth of that kind of thing, but I get it... And speaking as one who's become intimately familiar with the innards of many of these machines, I know damned well that the engineers that designed them depend heavily on your skills to make their creations safe. The accident records are full of tales of people who didn't have the skill. Why anyone would squawk about paying pilots well is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 "Let me take you down to Cheju Island where the wind blows up crosswinds of 30 to 50 knots along with turbulence and windshears that make you feel one moment that you'll fall out of the sky and the next that you're headed to the moon. Now we'll try to fly down through all of that on a truly crappy day in order to make a landing that will probably come down to a split second decision based on a combination of skills, judgement and instinct that took a career to build." Boomerpete, your so full of BS! If you actually flew an aircraft in the conditions that you so bravely indicated above, you would be too dangerous to be in any cockpit. I sure hope your decision to land in a 50kt crosswind (probably exceeds crosswind limitations), turbulence and Windshear to boot plus low ceilings is made before a split second! I assure you, no one would want to be in your airplane being so arrogant and full of himself. Get this: " Skill you could not even imagine" BOOMERPETE, you truly are a God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Give your head a shake , pal. A line check doesn't put your career on the line, and with AQP, neither does a ride. And exactly how many times have you had Transport in your jump seat? You can fool some of the people, but not anybody here. Save your "I'm an Air Canada pilot" line for the bar on Saturday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Another armchair quarterback? BP isn't BSing anything and you sir should try to become qualified to fly something bigger than a microsoft flight sim (same to simboy) before commenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I can assure you that anyone who has flown into places like Cheju, Funchal and many others know exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't believe me call up the weather for RKPC throughtout the winter season. It is absolutely typical to have a 30 kt crosswind reported at the surface that is often 50 kts. or more at 500'. Add to that the wind warps around the volcanic mountain in the background making for some truly amazing bumps. I look at my logbook and I see I've made 7 go-arounds for weather so far this year, 5 of them in Cheju. One of them was done due to a gust that hit at 35 feet, or about 2 seconds before touchdown. Mother nature is not all simple and predictable and on a bad day she make you work every second to the ground. It hardly takes a God to do this, whether you land or go around, but it does take a an awful lot more skill, judgment and instinct, than SimBoy imagines, and it is by no means simply or routine. Still, you expect to get that from your pilots each and every day when they go to work. It is not the simple rote learned skill that you or Simboy might like to believe it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 (((I sure hope your decision to land in a 50kt crosswind (probably exceeds crosswind limitations), turbulence and Windshear to boot plus low ceilings is made before a split second! Boomerpete, your so full of BS! If you actually flew an aircraft in the conditions that you so bravely indicated above, you would be too dangerous to be in any cockpit. )))) Whoa there….. I do not believe BP said he landed in 50Kt crosswinds, he said the crosswinds get up to 50kts. And what is the big deal about a 30Kt Crosswind??? 30 Kts at 90 degress is no biggy for a pilot who really knows his aircraft and has the skill to put it on the runway. His remark about a split second decision is what many pilots go through during their career and I have been there. Picture a real crappy day, skud cloud and lots of wind, the decision to land is up to the pilot and most of us make it based on a lot of factors and one is personal skill, which comes with experience. That decision is one made prior to the moment of commitment and it is a split second decision. You don’t even know the man, and neither do I but I sure as hell would ride with him any day, based on what he has written, and the respect with which his peers hold him. BS???? No, I don’t think so…a man who is confident with his skills who is POed, and rightly so, because of the rancorous remarks made by someone who seems to think pilots are tradesmen,,,,well news for him…planes don’t fly without pilots and the last time I looked up the definition of Professionals, I saw the word PILOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 If the opinion you posted above was the understanding you gained from the experience you referred to, I have my doubts about the quality of that experience. Nonetheless, you're entitled to your opinion, for whatever it's worth. Just don't expect the rest of the world to sit by quietly while you air it. For what it's worth I hope for all of you that a plan to revive AC and make it prosper is born this weekend. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I can assure you that anyone who has flown into places like Cheju, Funchal and many others know exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't believe me call up the weather for RKPC throughtout the winter season. It is absolutely typical to have a 30 kt crosswind reported at the surface that is often 50 kts. or more at 500'. Add to that the wind warps around the volcanic mountain in the background making for some truly amazing bumps. I look at my logbook and I see I've made 7 go-arounds for weather so far this year, 5 of them in Cheju. One of them was done due to a gust that hit at 35 feet, or about 2 seconds before touchdown. Mother nature is not all simple and predictable and on a bad day she make you work every second to the ground. It hardly takes a God to do this, whether you land or go around, but it does take a an awful lot more skill, judgment and instinct, than SimBoy imagines, and it is by no means simply or routine. Still, you expect to get that from your pilots each and every day when they go to work. It is not always the simple rote learned skill that you or Simboy might like to believe it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I can assure you that anyone who has flown into places like Cheju, Funchal and many others know exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't believe me call up the weather for RKPC throughtout the winter season. It is absolutely typical to have a 30 kt crosswind reported at the surface that is often 50 kts. or more at 500'. Add to that the wind warps around the volcanic mountain in the background making for some truly amazing bumps. I look at my logbook and I see I've made 7 go-arounds for weather so far this year, 5 of them in Cheju. One of them was done due to a gust that hit at 35 feet, or about 2 seconds before touchdown. Mother nature is not all simple and predictable and on a bad day she will make you work every second to the ground. It hardly takes a God to do this, whether you land or go around, but it does take an awful lot more skill, judgment and instinct than SimBoy imagines, and it is by no means always simple or routine. Still, you expect to get that from your pilots each and every day when they go to work. It is not the simple rote learned skill that you or Simboy might like to believe it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Because a ramp agent works hard for the $ gets a sore back sore neck and sweats a lot more than a pilot who has his autopilot on and reads the stock reports and thinks about his next bmw,I would like to know are pilots jealous of rampies because you guys are always talking about how much the ramp makes and how easy the job is,I tell you what why don't you guys slug the bags and dump the $HIT out of the lavs and do a little grunt work and see how much its worth to you,Don't judge somebodys job untill you've done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Thank-you Mitch ... I really had no desire to poke my nose into any of the ACPA versus AC situation, but the statement by SimBoy "the majority of your "skill" comes from the engineers who designed the planes you fly and have made them very "pilot-proof"." was just too much for me to resist. It takes a real hard won skill to make these machines flyable, just as it does to take them flying, and folks like Simboy seem to have forgotten that, if they ever knew it in the first place. Whether one agrees or disagrees with ACPA, ALPA, IAM or AC's management, if we allow our contributions to this industry to denigrated without response we have only ourselves to blame for the inevitable decline that follows. I'm hoping for the best for all my many friends at AC. These are scarey times. Good Luck. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Thank-you Kip. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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