SimBoy Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 BommerPete, I have NOTHING to lose in this. I was based in CYYT for 8 years, so don't tell me about bad weather! I flew a DH8 with 2 ADF/2VOR/ILS and that was it. Its a trade - nothing more, and I got paid accordingly - as will you when the customers open their cheque-books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, just don't expect that it's going to go unchallenged. Frankly, I think you're dead wrong. You can call piloting a trade, a profession, a career or job for all I care. What you can't do, not without me jumping on it anyway, is suggest that piloting requires little in the way of genuine, hard earned skill along with sound judgement and good instincts to be carried out in the professional manner that every passenger has the right to expect. That is what you did when you said "the majority of your "skill" comes from the engineers who designed the planes you fly and have made them very "pilot-proof"." , and that is what I responded to. With respect to your last comment, if you who knows nothing of who I am, where I work or how much I get paid wish me a pay cut simply because you have chosen to assume I am overpaid, then you must be a very mean spirited and petty person. I don't know what aviation did to you, but I'm glad I don't have to spend my life listening to all the grievances it takes to develop that sort of bile for someone you don't know. As it happens, I do get paid accordingly by my count. My only concern is that the customers continue to open their chequebooks at all while SARS is on their minds. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimBoy Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 Pete, I have nothing against you, nor your company. I assume (perhaps, incorrectly), that your paycheque is signed by Milton, or one of his designates. Like it or not, the reason you put youself in such high esteem is because of the brainwashing of your union. Is a pilot at Jetsgo, WestJet, or CanJet less of a pilot than you? Think carefully before you answer. I have read a lot about these other guys "lowering the bar". Well, the bar HAS been lowered and I can't believe that ACPA is "negotiating" in light of the present situation. The worth of a pilot has just been renegotiated, despite what you may think of yourself. Its what you get, or the EI line... been there, done that... trust me, you won't like it. I bear you no malice, but for God's sake, see the reality of the situation! You can still make a good living for you and your family on JetsGo, WestJet or CanJet wages. Regards, Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Kip, After reading your post, I went back to read through Pete's (several times I might add) as well as my own. You are right in that my tone was one of confrontation. Having said that, it was never my intent to take anything out of context. I was merely trying to convey in short hand (((” Skill you could not even imagine”.))) the jest of what I thought he was implying. Sorry! One can also say that beginning a post as BoomerPete did with "Look buddy ..." can also be seen as confrontational. I don't know how you knew the real me ((( " Based on your other postings on the forum you seem to be a fairly compassionate individual, that is, caring about others...."))) but that in essence who I really am, so others have told me. Thanks for showing me the mirror! Now I can see myself again. Just too many concerns with what's going in our industry I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leftbase Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 You REALLLLLY need to educate yourself a little on this particular gentleman's career history and present employer. (Try searching the archived posts.) That way, you would have a better grasp on how totally and absolutely you have missed his point on the value of pilot experience, which applies anywhere, anytime, not just in the narrow little Canadian aviation world. Regards, lb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Carl ... Your assumption is very much incorrect. I have never drawn a paycheque from AC, nor any of the companies associated with it. I have not been brainwashed by ACPA nor anyone else when it comes to my estimation of a pilot's worth or the skills need to do the job. I've been at this game a while too and I've had plenty of time to draw my own conclusions on these matters, and to have acted on them to my own benefit as well. That you would ask me "Is a pilot at Jetsgo, WestJet, or CanJet less of a pilot than you?" suggests that you haven't been around this website very long, given the number of times I have posted rebuttals to folks who have proposed just that sort of thing. In fact, I'm probably in a better position than most to observe that the "remuneration" a pilot can ask is indeed subject to market forces, and these are not good times in that regard. A pilot's skill and his worth, however, have little to do with his paycheque, which in large part explains my response to your first post. For the moment I begrudge ACPA nothing (an easy position to take as an outsider I admit) for putting forth maximum effort on behalf of their members. That is their responsibility and they would be negligent in their duty if the did anything less. Regardless of the intransigence of those they are facing, however, ACPA will have to come up with a plan that satisfies Justices Winkler and Farley. Should ACPA's maximum effort fall short of a deal that the Justices can endorse as giving everyone at AC hope for the future, then I will certainly be among those who will criticize them for failing when they were needed most. Good luck to all. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Don't judge somebodys job untill you've done it. (I was very careful to cut & paste the above!) ...most pilots have done those jobs at some point in their career. But for the pain and suffering you have otherwise excellently described, didn't see themselves making a career out of it. They (we) strived to move onwards with their (our) careers in aviation. An amazing amount of vitriole in this thread. Probably the most I've seen in the history of this forum. Sign of the times, I guess. Blue side up, boys & girls. I don't wish the pogey line on anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Fair enough ...its a new day and I hope for the many that it turns out to be a good day. "Quarrels would not last long if the fault was only on one side." La Rochefoucauld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 The proof's in the pudding, my friend. Tell me - how many pilots have lost their AC career due to an error in the sim, and how many have been terminated due to poor performance on a line check? I'm not talking about new-hires but about regular line guys doing a recurrent. Approximately 3000 on the line at two sims/year plus line checks and Transport = 10000 career-on-the-line opportunities ( less I guess because AQP is every 8 months, right? ) each year. So what's the failure rate? How many pilots hit the pavement each year, or better yet, what's the 10 year total? Perhaps after that you could give a brief rundown on how AQP works, for those who don't know. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eventer Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 What's really amazing is that they do it all using those convoluted Approach plates designed to Air Canada's specifications. Ever heard of Jepps?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AME Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 FYI If memory serves me right Boomer is an ex-C3 pilot (he left before the collapse) who how works for Korean Airlines and I think it's fairly safe to assume they don't AC plates Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eventer Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 They way I see it, we all play an important part and we all need each other to do our jobs. I may work in the front of my 'Jazz' aircraft,...but I'm certainly no more important than the person who cleans out the toilets. Everyone who does his or her job to the best of their ability gets my respect! Eventer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TBird One Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Carl, First of all, I have the utmost respect for you, and I always will. You and I have been there and we fought the good fight. I am afraid that I must disagree with you lumping WestJet in with Canjet and Jetsgo. I respectfully submit that WestJet has not lowered the bar. The bar is different here. We make a decent salary here and then, when times are good, we get profit share and the stock value increases. My T4 last year when you include all of those elements, was damn near 300K. Now, don't get me wrong, don't interpret this as gloating. I just want to set the record straight. This year, I suspect my T4 will be about half of that. But that is damn good given the mess this industry is in. I will agree that the others (CJ & JGo) have lowered the bar- I don't want to go there and talk about that because I have friends at both outfits whom I respect deeply and if I were confronted with the same set of circumstances as them, no doubt I'd be there too. But please, to compare my compensation to CJ or to the 30K that you dole out to be at JGo is fundamentally wrong. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr1 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Just a tad bitter Carl? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 As a matter of fact Hawkeye yes. Seven years flying in and out of Torbay. Have you flown the IGS into the old Kai Tak Airport in Hong Kong in a typhoon? You get into a pissing contest - you're going to get wet. The fact that you mention YYT leads me to believe that you've been there as well. So how can you dismiss the observations and experiences of another when you must have encountered the same - Wind Shear, Low RVR's, contaminated runways - in Torbay as Boomer Pete in other parts of the world? A tad hypocritical. As to the remark on Tradesmen, that was my comment on the general tone of the thread and directed more at SIMBOY. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Carl, you need to calm down and relax. The guy at your keyboard is not the guy I used to fly with at 9A. We all make choices. Unfortunately some are made for us, but in the end how we deal with it is up to us. I wish you the best Carl. Wade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I'm with you on that one! I've had to use AC plates on occasion and did not like them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Tell me - how many pilots have lost their AC career due to an error in the sim, and how many have been terminated due to poor performance on a line check? I couldn't tell you, I don't work there. However, does one have to lose one's job to feel the pressure to perform every 6 months? Is not the threat, implicit or implied not enough pressure on an individual. Approximately 3000 on the line at two sims/year plus line checks and Transport = 10000 career-on-the-line opportunities ( less I guess because AQP is every 8 months, right? ) each year. So what's the failure rate? How many pilots hit the pavement each year, or better yet, what's the 10 year total? I'll ask you, how many guys at Air Canada are on "stress" leave. How many have been moved back to the "right" seat for "seasoning"? Is that prospect not as stressfull as losing your job? You in effect do lose your job don't you? You're given a new job in a subordinate position. How much of a toll has it taken on them? Have any been given the "gracious" way out and taken stress or early retirement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 This thread started with the statement " I put my career on the line every time I go to the sim." A wee bit of an exaggeration. You're now claiming that the pilots feel stress and pressure to perform. What??! The whole point of the sim is to develop the mental tools to deal with "the stress". If they can't I don't want them to bid back to FO and be crewing an aircraft with my family in it. In the hundreds or thousands of pilots I have met and worked with over the years, there are maybe 2 who couldn't handle it. I would expect that by the time someone gets to AC that they're even less likely to be in this number. The point is that it's not quite the hero profession that was claimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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