dagger Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 http://www.newswire.ca/releases/April2003/02/c7023.html Alpa has a new plan for Jazz - to grow it as part of the low-cost thrust with regional jets. Presenting it tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Well, it will make for interesting reading, but the bottom line from the Jazz group seems to be, "OK AC, cut the 747 and all of its pilots, cut the 737 and all its pilots, now cut the RJ and all its pilots, and we'll save the company." Very noble. Of course the fact that it transfers the hardship from ALPA members to ACPA has nothing to do with it. By my count, the RJ move would transfer over 150 layoffs from Jazz to the mainline. How many furloughs would be left in that plan? BTW, that same plan would extend AC's surplus to over 500 pilots. Now call me a cynic, but I think ACPA may have other ideas. Frankly, it would be far, far cheaper for AC to simply take over the operation of the 10 or so RJ's now in operation at the feeder and get their pay structure sorted out so they aren't operating RJ's with 320 and 767 F/O's. Basic stuff like a training program that already has an RJ sim on site and favorable rates. That said, I would hesitate to suggest that either body use this as an opportunity to save their own skin at the expense of another. Let's focus on our core business and make the best of what we've got. That means AC does what they can with their fleet, Jazz with theirs. Just my opinion Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Well, it will make for interesting reading, but the bottom line from the Jazz group seems to be, "OK AC, cut the 747 and all of its pilots, cut the 737 and all its pilots, now cut the RJ and all its pilots, and we'll save the company." Very noble. Of course the fact that it transfers the hardship from ALPA members to ACPA has nothing to do with it. By my count, the RJ move would transfer over 150 layoffs from Jazz to the mainline. How many furloughs would be left at Jazz? BTW, that same plan would extend AC's surplus to over 500 pilots. Now call me a cynic, but I think ACPA may have other ideas. Frankly, it would be far, far cheaper for AC to simply take over the operation of the 10 or so RJ's now in operation at the feeder and get their pay structure sorted out so they aren't operating RJ's with 320 and 767 F/O's. Basic stuff like a training program that already has an RJ sim on site and favorable rates. Maybe the answer is for AC to roll Jazz into the fold once and for all. If the RJ is to be the senior equipment at Jazz, and it seems it is, do we not now have a good lynch pin? Of course, it would require burying the hatchet once and for all. I'm not sure how easy that will be to do. All this said, I would hesitate to suggest that either body use this time as an opportunity to save their own skin at the expense of another. Let's focus on our core business and make the best of what we've got. If that means AC does what they can with their fleet and Jazz with theirs, then so be it. Just my opinion Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted April 2, 2003 Author Share Posted April 2, 2003 Air Canada management has its vision of the entire operation, and while some of ALPA's ideas may dovetail, it is unlikely to dovetail in its entirety. However, there may be a middle ground... transferring junior ACPA members to Jazz to fly the bigger RJs, while expanding AC internationally. Time for both unions to think outside the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Thinking outside the box? Exactly! ACPA and ALPA, this is a great opportunity to correct some wrongs, DO NOT &%$@! it up, for the good of all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Sorry for being blunt however, screw off with the junior acpa member thing. They were all very very very junior ALPA people that jumped ship. They ain't going senior on anything at Jazz!!! On another note, AC has one future only and that's as a wide body long haul carrier. Forget the rest of the bs please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 "transferring junior ACPA members to Jazz to fly the bigger RJs" Dagger, give your head a shake. Do you think the Jazz group is going to allow the junior ac crowd to take top seniority positions at Jazz? These very people were the very very very junior at Jazz and chose to jump ship. Should Jazz lay off another 150 of it's present day juniors to accomodate those that made a poor decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted April 2, 2003 Author Share Posted April 2, 2003 Give your head a shake. Do you think the normal rules apply? Are you even sure you will have a collective agreement as you know it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted April 2, 2003 Author Share Posted April 2, 2003 Forgive me for being blunt, but with the right cost structure, Air Canada can be anything it wants, something small minds fail to comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 You know Dagger, many of us are reeling right now. Why don't you go kick another dog for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 You know Dagger, many of us are reeling right now. Why don't you go kick another dog for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 OK, let's get way out there. AC would need one more Chief Pilot to run the Dash-8 operation, keep the training and check pilots, and the rest of the overhead would be redundant. Overnight. Jazz cannot add a 90 seat operation as cheaply as AC can, for a whole whack or reasons. AC's problems lie in its contract and training backlog. Clear that or equalize the pay so you are not paying the same level on two types of equipment and it will be, by my estimate, cheaper. I couldn't say that pre-restructure, but clearly the old rules won't apply from here on out. Overhead doesn't make revenue, it spends it. Let's get rid of as much of it as we can. Just my opinion. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Dagger Yes, nothing applies anymore and I've shaken my head so much over the last fifteen years I don't think I'll ever see straight again. All that's certain is history. Everytime AC wants to provide a public perception that they're doing something to fix themselves they turn around and kick Jazz. AC management wouldn't recognize a business plan if it hit them square in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Here we go again.me,me,me,me.That's what got AC into this mess in the first place.Lets let the powers at be decide where the equipment goes and who is going to fly it this time.After all the powers at be are the ones with all the cards this time.ACPA & ALPA don't have any say in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Here's an idea - why don't we merge the pilot groups and let everyone bid on whatever position they can hold according to their seniority. This would prevent the company from playing one group against the other to the detriment of both ( whipsawing, I think it's called ). Nah, that's crazy-talk. It would never work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Dastardly Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Not exactly, hired in 87 at CRA, in the last 500 at AC. I agree that it would be hard to find a solution that both groups find palatable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Here's an idea - why don't we merge the pilot groups and let everyone bid on whatever position they can hold according to their seniority. This would prevent the company from playing one group against the other to the detriment of both ( whipsawing, I think it's called ). Nah, that's crazy-talk. It would never work. Looks like those chickens have come home to roost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bcpilot Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 I was hoping that you can expand on the "whack of reasons" that AC can add a 90 seat aircraft easier than Jazz can. Assuming it is an entirely new type to both companies, and that Jazz would even be allowed to operate a 90 seat jet, I'm curious why it would be such a huge undertaking at Jazz and not at AC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Again, the management at AC wouldn't recognize a business plan if it head them in the head. Am I &%$@!? You bet I am. I've watched my precious company (AO) being destroyed for fifteen or more years by those very "small minds" at AC to which you refer. And here we are today. If those pulling the strings allow Milton and crew to remain there's no hope for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Because they're AC and their track record proves they can do everything better! LOL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 AC has a Dash-8 chief pilot in place at Jazz.Ask some of the guys in the AC training dept that came from the regionals.He does a great job and he's already very well trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 AC has a Dash-8 chief pilot in place at Jazz.Ask some of the guys in the AC training dept that came from the regionals.He does a great job and he's already very well trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest qtip Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 AC has a Dash-8 chief pilot in place at Jazz.Ask some of the guys in the AC training dept that came from the regionals.He does a great job and he's already very well trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 That's not it at all. Read my first post. I was responding to Dagger's 'out of the box' comment. My first post was very much in line with what you just posted. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 'Assuming it's an entirely new type...' Big assumption. And incorrect. It is not an entirely new type, and in fact a good portion of the team that set up that aircraft now works at AC. There are also a large number of pilots at AC whose RJ PPC's are current or have expired less than two years, so would re-qualify - on either type (as they can be flown mixed) with a differences course and a recurrent PPC. As a downbid is likely, guess where they will come from? By comparison, Growth like this at Jazz would require a number of initial rides - and line indoc, possibly still requiring the use of external pilots for that role, or a diversion of resources from the relatively few pilots who are checked out and have enough time for every new aircraft added. This isn't chump change. Of course, once it is all done, the line rate for an RJ pilot at Jazz is still more than the same seat at AC, at least last I checked. Since both airlines are about to give up wages, that may change, however. But, as I said, just my opinion. Rather than debate this though, please refer to my first post, where I did not advocate either team scooping the other. My point is, be careful what happens when you're dealing with the 'box', Pandora's or otherwise. Cheers Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.