Vsplat Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Precisely the kind of response that has lead to impasse after impasse... How sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bcpilot Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Thanks for your response. All very valid points that make good sense. The only comment that I found surprising was that the line rate at Jazz is higher than the same seat at AC. The average RJ F/O at Jazz makes about 50,000/yr and the average captain is making around 90,000/yr. (all numbers are of course just averages, there are some higher and some lower) I was under the assumption that the AC pay scale was higher than that for the RJ. But as you said the pay rates are most likely to change very soon so that becomes a moot point!! I agree that the sooner we get rid of the US vs THEM attitude and start to work together the better things will be in the long run. Merging the pilots into one group would be a huge step in the right direction. How to do that fairly? I don't have a clue. Guess thats why I'm not in management or on the MEC! LOL Good luck to everyone involved!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cabo Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Time for both unions to think outside the box. Good point Dagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tri-spool Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Although this is a time to put our heads together and really think outside the box, the fact remains that ACPA will do everything to reduce or eliminate layoffs. That may even mean sacrificing all of Jazz such that the mainline will do all of the regional flying as well. It has already happened with ZIP taking the routes that Air BC and CRA flew. What stops ACPA from suggesting that thier lowest payed pilots, the ones at the bottom of the seniority list that are making 4$40-85K/year from flying all of the RJ routes and scrapping Jazz all-together. I know that by suggesting this I may piss of a lot of Jazz pilots, but the Pandora's Box was opened when the suggestion came from ALPA. What are everyone's thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfhunter Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 TRY THIS: Although this is a time to put our heads together and really think outside the box, the fact remains that ALPA will do everything to reduce or eliminate layoffs. That may even mean sacrificing all of Tango/ZIP such that Jazz will do all of the domestic flying. What stops ALPA from suggesting that their lowest paid pilots, the ones at the bottom of the seniority list that are making $40-85K/year from flying all of the domestic routes and scrapping Tango and ZIP. I know that by suggesting this I may piss of a lot of Air Canada pilots, but Pandora's box was opened when the suggestion came from ACPA. I took the liberty of making some spelling and grammatical changes. Lets not go there shall we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Tri-spool wrote: “What stops ACPA from suggesting that their lowest paid pilots, the ones at the bottom of the seniority list that are making 4$40-85K/year from flying all of the RJ routes and scrapping Jazz all-together.” Pilot issue: My thoughts…. Nothing will stop ACPA from making these types of “offers”. I am sure they, just like every other group/union, will be strategizing on how to mitigate the impact on their members. The problem as I see it now is that ACPA (and ALPA as well) really have no teeth. They are, as Neo pointed out, at the mercy of the creditors and the proposed business plan of Air Canada. I am no expert on CCAA but its fair to say that the whole process of who flies what where will be decided in the next few weeks by the restructuring “plan” and the creditor’s approval of said “plan”. Yes I realize there are “contractual” obligations but I am no fool to think that only monetary concessions will be considered without potential for changes to layoff clauses & scope type issues etc. Everything & anything is possible going forward. It’s a “Change ends, new game” scenario that will now play out except the rules have changed drastically from what we are used to (negotiations). Not to say there will not be discussion and dis/agreement but it’s a whole new world from what we have grown accustomed to. It’s interesting to note under this “plan” the new corporate structure has Air Canada “Mainline” becoming a subsidiary (just like Tech Services, Jazz etc.) of Air Canada Enterprises. What this means I am not sure so maybe someone with experience on this type of “structure” can comment on its significance. I think that visionaries of past unions (CALPA) that tried to bring these groups together many years ago (to prevent “whipsawing”) will now be proven correct to a degree unforeseen by many. I sincerely wish all employees of “Air Canada Enterprises” a speedy return to profitability and future success. The economic weather specialist is predicting severe CAT in all quadrants and altitudes so the Seat Belt Sign remains…. “ON” Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAT3DUAL Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Curious, exactly what wrongs would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Like I said, last I checked. It's quite possibly different now, and it will be different again soon. It might be worthwhile to post both rates here, so we're all on the same page. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fasteddy Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Interesting note on wages...I'm a 15 year dude in the left seat at Jazz..my T4 right in front of me says in Box14 86883.21..any AC RJ pilot's out there got the guts to post theirs? BTW..this is the corrected {amended} statement..Cheers ED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 With respect, can we look at the pay scales instead of a tax receipt? I don't know what gets counted in the T4, or when the rate(s) that got rolled into that number applied. Cheers Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 You have access to ACPA's book rates. Suffice it to say that the top scale at the mainline subsidiary is approx 50% higher than the Jazz subsidiary. Respectfully you should be able to do the math from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fasteddy Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Good point Kal...also I see I have no takers on the "I'll show ya mine, if you show me your's"....Box 14 that is...Cheers Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Your statements are all conclusions. Where to the pay scales start and how do they line up? I don't have the level of access you think I do, and even with both scales on the same table, all of the ancillary costs would have to be seen. Even with all that that, how often does an AC RJ pilot remain on that type long enough to get to the top end? In terms of real costs, using real bodies, during the time period the company is trying to save money, there are still further considerations. We also need to consider the training costs (AC has AQP with an 8 month window between visits, so three rides every 24 months instead of 4), preferred rates on their sim, etc, etc. Costs to grow the fleet using initials at Jazz versus recurrents at AC, and so on. So, back to my original request. Can we see some basic data so we don't spend our time assuming one operation or the other is more expensive? Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Your statements are all conclusions. Where to the pay scales start and how do they line up? I don't have the level of access you think I do, and even with both scales on the same table, all of the ancillary costs would have to be seen. Even with all that, how often does an AC RJ pilot remain on that type long enough to get to the top end? In terms of real costs, using real bodies, during the time period the company is trying to save money, there are still further considerations. We also need to consider the training costs (AC has AQP with an 8 month window between visits, so three rides every 24 months instead of 4), preferred rates on their sim, etc, etc. Costs to grow the fleet using initials at Jazz versus recurrents at AC, and so on. So, back to my original request. Can we see some basic data so we don't spend our time assuming one operation or the other is more expensive? Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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