Guest Labtec Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I have it on good authority from some credible sources outside of Air Canada that there are some non-unionized tier 3 carriers that have also approached Calin and Milton to undercut the Jazz group. These particular carriers work for half the pay and don't have strict union rules as far as crewing and scheduling go. ALPA JaZZ be careful what road you go down others may do to you what you seek to do to others. These companies already operate comparable aircraft and there would be no need to do a large re-jigging of their operation. Its in the works right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 No doubt anything is possible. The question remains why would AC outsource work when that work has to, by definition, generate a profit for another entity. If the circumstance is right it would behoove the Company to use it's own stable rather that a rented one. Lord knows there has been just about continual headaches in dealing with outsourced carriers todate. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Nick may have something here. Seems to me that the source of the largest blood loss with AC is the domestic/transborder market. That is the place where AC's model is truly broken. Therefor addressing the problem with a targeted solution has merit. Certainly there are temporary challenges to the Long Haul/International market, but they are not necessarily symptomatic of a broken model. More of a geopolitical storm that will pass, hopefully sooner rather than later. Perhaps by taking bold and innovative steps that gets all of the AC stable firing on all cylanders the majority of the pain can be spared to the Big airplane wages and working conditions,, that are not out of line. It makes no sense to apply a solution on a homogenized basis. Why should the GDR's, DH's etc of the AC world take a hit to their wages, working conditions and pensions when that is not the problem. Jazz is a fully functional (or at least can be) flight operation that just needs the right capacity plugged into it. Zip is currently dispatched and scheduled by Jazz. In other words it's a turn-key proposition. The oustanding issue would be labor. Now is the time to come face to face with the realities and realisticaly close the self inflicted wounds of the various bits within the AC family of carriers. We can and will be a domestic/transborder/International force to be reconned with, to the benefit of all if we can do this. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 It never ceases to amaze me how much or Milton and Rovenescu's heavy lifting the unions are willing to do themselves, simply in the interest of winning a pi$$ing contest. This situation has got to have them laughing in the boardroom. Professional pilots fighting over the scraps of what was once a respected profession. ALPA sideswipes ACPA, Tier III sideswipes ALPA - it would make for pretty good slapstick if the stakes weren't so high. All of this simply serves to chew up energy that is needed elsewhere, but it does keep the mod busy while the masters decide their fate. Why don't the two groups do something useful - like start a dialogue to bury the hatchet and move forward as a consilidated body? Or would you rather start a wage price war so you can brag about being the lowest paid airline pilots with the poorest working conditions in North America? Oh yeah, I forgot...This is about winning... ...Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 It never ceases to amaze me how much of Milton and Rovenescu's heavy lifting the unions are willing to do themselves, simply in the interest of winning a pi$$ing contest. This situation has got to have them laughing in the boardroom. Professional pilots fighting over the scraps of what was once a respected profession. ALPA sideswipes ACPA, Tier III sideswipes ALPA - it would make for pretty good slapstick if the stakes weren't so high. All of this simply serves to chew up energy that is needed elsewhere, but it does keep the mob busy while the masters decide their fate. Why don't the two groups do something useful - like start a dialogue to bury the hatchet and move forward as a consilidated body? Or would you rather start a wage price war so you can brag about being the lowest paid airline pilots with the poorest working conditions in North America? Oh yeah, I forgot...This is about winning... ...Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 As for the communication for Tier 3, I don't know of anything...BUT....ALPA has more than half a dozen documented contact attempts to communicate with ACPA in the past couple of months. Even our union leaders have approached ACPA in person. ACPA brushed off or ignored EVERY attempt. So, it's not for lack of trying. Whatever way the cards fall in this mess, at least I can say my Jazz Reps did the right thing. The court order in OUR CCAA has some very broad sweeping power to change ANYTHING in our agreements....so I agree, we should be talking, but we are not. I can hear RM laughing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 It is very sad that a group of professionals like ACPA, is still not getting it... All they want is to grab everything and leave all the crap to the others. I've been told many times that the leaders of ACPA are not negotiating in good faith when comes the time to talk about a common solution. I still believe the majority of the pilots at mainline are willing to clear up this issue as soon as possible, and just GET OVER IT once and for all. Problem is; ACPA will negotiate with ALPA once the danger is known and inevitable. Think about it guys; it's not time no negotiate when you just lost all the tools to do so... MHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Dude, do you even know what the 319s are used for? A lot of that fleet's flying is comprised of long/thin transborder routes- YYZ-SEA,SFO,SAN, DEN,IAH,DFW,PHX, etc., etc. Are you proposing that we just give that away? What should we do with the 1300 A320 pilots? Push 'em over to make room for Nick & company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Putonyouroxygenmaskmilehighclub...hypoxiaissettingin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I think maybe you're the one not getting it. ACPA doesn't "grab everything". The mainline has 3200 real, live people just trying to keep their current jobs. What you're proposing is that those pilots just move over so that you can poach the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 We have gotten way to good at pointing fingers. At ACPA, at ALPA, at leadership, at the government, you name it. Quite frankly, there is so much spin being applied to everything at the moment, unless I heard the speaker say it myself, I would be very hesitant to make a career decision based on any of what is reported, or accuse anyone else of anything based on what is, effectively, hearsay. Even if I did hear it myself I would ask questions until I am positive I heard it right. I would say this to both ACPA and ALPA memnbers. If you don't like what is going on, then raise it and keep raising it, with those who are like minded and then to your leadership. I have to believe that there are many more folks in the ranks that want harmony than those that don't, on both sides. Now more than ever it is not only good for your psyche, it is simply good business. Leaders cannot lead where their followers will not follow. Where are you letting your leaders take you? Is it where you want to go? If so, don't complain. If not, then there is only one person who can change it - you. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Of course I do! But, the status-quo is not working so a new formula is required. Or are you one that is reluctant to change? There will be job losses and changes made and the employees willingness to change will determine how many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Of course I do and you hit the nail on the head with "thin transborder routes". But, the status-quo is not working so a new formula is required. Or are you one that is reluctant to change? There will be job losses and changes made and the employees willingness to change will determine how many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Call it hearsay, but they have documneted the attempts, this news is from our speakers. I'm sure a few Jazz ALPA reps would not want to talk to ACPA either but many of the Jazz pilots represented requested this...so as GOOD reps do, they made the attempt several times. We'll see how it goes from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Change may be required, but wholesale capitulation is not. As a former B744 pilot, myself, I'm curious as to which seat you occupy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 It reciprocates...when ACPA sent ALPA their proposal back in Dec'96, ALPA kept saying they had never recieved it, although they had a copy sitting on their desk...unionism, just tell what you want heard and leave all the good stuff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 PT, I am a member of ACPA. I am not saying that what you have written is not true, however, I have not heard anything remotely close to this. Could you either post additional information or email me at aefdragon@hotmail.com I would like to take it up with my LEC. Also, in recent discussion with a member of my LEC, it was articulated that the combined numbers of Jazz along with the ex Canadian members of ACPA would, or could, pose a threat to ACPA in the arena of de-certification.That seemed an unattractive risk to the purveyor of the information.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Ask your MEC if they have been approached by ALPA. Ask them what their response was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 I have nothing in writing. I have just what has been told to us at our meetings and our web board indicated months ago that contact had been made from our MEC Nick D to ACPA's president, Don Johnson. I can't see them lying to our pilots about making contact. The actual Jazz MEC are VERY democratic. The vice chair is the best communicator I have ever seen in his position. This Vice Chair is the same person who has told the group constantly to remain professional and remain focused. This guy recently advised again how important it is to not use the Jumpseat as a political statement by saying 'to always take the high road' after a Jazz pilot posted info about being turned down for a ride from MIA last month. This same guy also posted on our private forum to Jazz Pilots, that if there was a time to 'open dialogue with ACPA...the time was now'. This doesn't sound like a person who is avoiding a conversation with ACPA. If they told us they called...then I believe they called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Right...does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.70 mach Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Is this the same guy involved in the pending lawsuit? If it is, I really don't think he is in any hurry of picking up the phone to ACPA. Please don't kid yourself over our union. Rant over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Our guys said they called, repeatedly. Are you claiming that they didn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 Not really. I was just trying to understand your perspective. I'm a little surprised that someone of about my seniority would be prepared to a)spin off the 320 flying and b)go through another merger, especially with the regionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SARP Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 At least we'd give him the recognition he and all his colleagues deserve. The day is coming when pilots in this country will know how badly we have screwed up our profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 You're wrong. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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