Kip Powick Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Toronto Star Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Toronto Star Article I don't think these agents are going to have to worry very much about employee recalls. More kiosks, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Example of balanced reporting or just the need to counter good news??? Ace Aviation shares take flight Former Air Canada stock soars 24% in first day of trading Poor employee morale still a lingering problem for airline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jiminy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 The article really doesn't surprise me. There's been a lot of negative talk over the previous two or three weeks from various work groups in the terminals, in the lunch rooms, on the bus, and even in the washrooms Most have little or no faith in Milton or his management team. They feel that he should have left after the restructuring was done or before it even began. They believe their concessions are going to be "Naughty Word" away in new uniforms, and aircraft paint. They think the company will be back for more concessions in a year or two. If Oct-19th and 20th were supposed to be days of celebration amongst all employees, I think the majority of celebrating will likely occur in the management ranks only. Most of the staff will likely treat it as a non event and carry on as usual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 If Oct-19th and 20th were supposed to be days of celebration amongst all employees, I think the majority of celebrating will likely occur in the management ranks only. Most of the staff will likely treat it as a non event and carry on as usual What???? Aren't you looking forward to the unveiling of the new paint with Celine Dion riding on the nose ala Titanic, belting out her new ditty, whilst wearing a "new" AC uniform???? Hope they ordered a whack more New Corporate Logo yack saks...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest long keel Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Insanity: doing the same thing every day and expecting different results. Things had to change, if you don't like the changes then maybe its time to go or learn to deal with them. I may not be happy the EMB190 pays 30% less than the DC9, but I choose to stay. That means shutting up, putting up, and waiting til the next round of collective bargaining to regain some of what is lost. In the meantime I hope that the proposed proft sharing is more reality than myth, and will help us all close the wage hole we are in now. If anyone thinks that keeping the same uniforms, paint, and charging for booze on overseas is going to bring back there old salaries, they need their heads examined! The debt burden has been lessoned, new airplanes are coming, our costs our lower. Nobody's wage or pension got hit like the US Air folks, or what is likely coming down the line at Delta, or UA. Its time to move on, or move out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AME Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut. Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 and waiting til the next round of collective bargaining to regain some of what is lost. In the meantime I hope that the proposed proft sharing is more reality than myth, and will help us all close the wage hole we are in now. When I read posts like that I realize how little has really changed. Things may be looking up right now but in 2006 when the contracts come up EVERYONE will be looking to get back what they lost and then some. The shift in thinking hasn't happened where you share the risk with the company, and maybe it never will. As long as the sense that "the company owes me big time" continues then problems will continue and labour and management will remain divided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 The article really doesn't surprise me. There's been a lot of negative talk over the previous two or three weeks from various work groups in the terminals, in the lunch rooms, on the bus, and even in the washrooms Most have little or no faith in Milton or his management team. They feel that he should have left after the restructuring was done or before it even began. They believe their concessions are going to be "Naughty Word" away in new uniforms, and aircraft paint. They think the company will be back for more concessions in a year or two. If Oct-19th and 20th were supposed to be days of celebration amongst all employees, I think the majority of celebrating will likely occur in the management ranks only. Most of the staff will likely treat it as a non event and carry on as usual I can understand that some employees are not happy and some will never be happy but "at least they still have a job". If truely unhappy, perhaps they should be seaking a career change while they are still enjoying a payday. The aviation industry has yet to bottom out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 The article really doesn't surprise me. There's been a lot of negative talk over the previous two or three weeks from various work groups in the terminals, in the lunch rooms, on the bus, and even in the washrooms Most have little or no faith in Milton or his management team. They feel that he should have left after the restructuring was done or before it even began. They believe their concessions are going to be "Naughty Word" away in new uniforms, and aircraft paint. They think the company will be back for more concessions in a year or two. If Oct-19th and 20th were supposed to be days of celebration amongst all employees, I think the majority of celebrating will likely occur in the management ranks only. Most of the staff will likely treat it as a non event and carry on as usual I can understand some people's feelings, but perhaps they should wait until Oct 19-20 to see the totality of what is being announced. It goes beyond new uniforms and livery. However, there are people who not only are not happy, they have made up their minds not to be happy, which is something entirely different. They would do well to consider the voluntary retirement packages or apply for a job at Jetsgo. Long Keel makes a valid point about future contract talks. Undoubtedly, if the new AC is successful, they will be looking for improvements, not just profit sharing, although it will likely be apparent that there has to be a balance between entrenching improvements and continuing to shoulder some risk. We have yet to measure the effect on other carrier's of walking through a field of dandilions instead of lilies. In other words, how does risk sharing feel if it looks like the days of fast-growing profits and fast-rising stock prices are history. Jumpy is right that for AC to survive in the long term, people have to realize that come 2006 or 2009, all is not going to snap back to where it was in 2000. But it takes time to instill that sense of realism. And AME is bang on. Einstein was a genius in so many ways. The customer doesn't give a rat's åss about employee gripes. A lot of people hit rough spots in their lives. They persevere, and make lemonade out of those lemons rather than making a sour face. Those who are incapable of that should move on while the going is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest long keel Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 When I read posts like that I realize how little has really changed. Things may be looking up right now but in 2006 when the contracts come up EVERYONE will be looking to get back what they lost and then some. The shift in thinking hasn't happened where you share the risk with the company, and maybe it never will. As long as the sense that "the company owes me big time" continues then problems will continue and labour and management will remain divided. You are so far off base, you are out of the field. Look at inflation, rather than seeing a cost of living increase like most, or seeing huge increases in pay like NAV CAN, MP's Judges, and other great institutions, I am now between 25-30% poorer per annum than in 2000. Share the risk? How? Should I not get paid when they fail to fill their seats due to overcapicity, seatsales in high season, or when they lose hundreds of thousands each day due to poorly generated pairings that result in fight attendents and pilots laying over in crew bases everyday? I do my best to follow the principal of safety comfort schedule, while minimizing the cost I can control. (Fuel) I have shared the risk. I lost too much to think in terms of stock and wages in the last year. Maybe you should re-read my post. I hope that the proposed proft sharing is more reality than myth, and will help us all close the wage hole we are in now. How is this not sharing the risk? If the company does well I hope to share in its good fortune. Do you believe that employees should work for nothing each time a loss is posted, and expect no return beyond their contractual paycheque when the company succeeds? You can't have it both ways. If AC is successful as I believe they will be, I will try my best to recover some of what has been lost through collective bargaining. If AC is in direstraights, I expect that future cuts may result. This is called being a realist. AC doesn't owe me or anyone else big time. If AC is successful, when it is time to negotiate a new contract I expect to share the spoils of that success. Expecting to fly on 40 million dollar airplanes with highly skilled staff who maintain and operate them for under $100.00 anywhere in Canada is the shift in thinking that needs to be eliminated. It is an unsustainable situation brought forward by the management of all the carriers greed to drive each other under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightlevels Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 where's dougie?? er, I mean Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lavoy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 ...It goes beyond new uniforms and livery. ... Know something we don't??? C'mon dagger, give us a hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 As usual you pilots just dont get it. Since you drivers spend very little time with the paying customers,how would you know what really goes on.I don't think on most flights you have a manager in your face,complaining about this and that while you are trying your best to deal with the people paying the wages.Its not just about the money,its about being treated with respect,We have a management team that feels threats and intimidation are the way to manage.The front line employees are not allowed to make a decision,and the manager who feels he's the one who should make the decisiom has to call YUL.But when the poop hits the fan its always funny how you can never find a manager even when the customer asks for one. When Air Canada makes a honest attempt to honestly deal with the moral issue,let me know,cause the hotdog and burger days just don't cut it anymore. Hollis Harris had the right idea,,let the employee's run the show,when they screw up tell then why,but don't try to fire everyone who err's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Know something we don't??? C'mon dagger, give us a hint. Actually, I don't know the substance of the main announcement being made on Oct 19, but I do know that the main announcement is not the livery or the uniforms or some long-overdue spending on cabin interiors on long-haul aircraft. I am told that the main announcement will overshadow everything else. I have ventured that the main announcement may be something nice (and tangible0 for employees - a thank you for helping save the company - and no, not a coupon for a hamburger. But that is just my speculation. I have nothing to back it up. And no, I doubt that Oprah is going to walk out on the nose on top of a 767 and give every employee a free car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 We have yet to measure the effect on other carrier's of walking through a field of dandilions instead of lilies. In other words, how does risk sharing feel if it looks like the days of fast-growing profits and fast-rising stock prices are history. Therein lies the great misconception Dagger. The employees, at least the ones I work with, are far more intelligent and won't take their eye off the ball when " the days of fast-growing profits and fast-rising stock prices are history". Reason. None came to WestJet with expectations of get rich quick. In fact everyone is aware that "the days of fast-growing profits and fast-rising stock prices" are only beneficial on the surface. The stock price looks good but if you havn't yet had the time to acquire some its only glitter. Most realize this and continue to buy while staying focused on the task at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 As usual you pilots just dont get it. Since you drivers spend very little time with the paying customers,how would you know what really goes on.I don't think on most flights you have a manager in your face,complaining about this and that while you are trying your best to deal with the people paying the wages.Its not just about the money,its about being treated with respect,We have a management team that feels threats and intimidation are the way to manage.The front line employees are not allowed to make a decision,and the manager who feels he's the one who should make the decisiom has to call YUL.But when the poop hits the fan its always funny how you can never find a manager even when the customer asks for one. When Air Canada makes a honest attempt to honestly deal with the moral issue,let me know,cause the hotdog and burger days just don't cut it anymore. Hollis Harris had the right idea,,let the employee's run the show,when they screw up tell then why,but don't try to fire everyone who err's. You hit the nail on the head LTV. Trouble is,,,, You are now going to be ignored. Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest long keel Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 LTV, Good management means empowering employees. The pilots are basically self managed with a SOP that should be stictly adhered to. Errors in the SOP get fixed through ASR and FCR's being filed. (Air safety, flight crew reports) Don't brush off though that we pilots do not see the passenger or have customer service skills. Better than half my career I loaded cargo, catered, and dealt first hand with the passengers. This is typical of many aviators. I somehow doubt that you have dealt with simulator, medicals, route checks, transport ride alongs, all of which have the power to stop the next paycheque in a moments notice. When I've had to divert to alternate I will face the passengers and explain why. Then again how would you know this as you spend 20 minutes to an hour with someone I carry for up to 6 hours cross continent. If your managers are a pain in the ass I'm sorry for you. Just remember that they started out within your own ranks, not mine. There is no need to slag or make negative assumptions about us "drivers" because you dislike your own management. Last time I checked ACPA doesn't hold a seat on the board. Other than show your obvious dislike of pilots, what was the point of your post towards us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Therein lies the great misconception Dagger. The employees, at least the ones I work with, are far more intelligent and won't take their eye off the ball when " the days of fast-growing profits and fast-rising stock prices are history". Reason. None came to WestJet with expectations of get rich quick. In fact everyone is aware that "the days of fast-growing profits and fast-rising stock prices" are only beneficial on the surface. The stock price looks good but if you havn't yet had the time to acquire some its only glitter. Most realize this and continue to buy while staying focused on the task at hand. Maybe so, but the last I saw, they haven't repealed the laws of gravity - or the laws of greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Long keel Your funny,,you get up and personal with all your customers in the span of a 6 hour flight.Get real buddy.Actually a lot of the people i started with are "drivers"oops you dont like that expression,,oh well, you'll get over it.The only "drivers i have ever had a problem from my years on the ramp were with the junior boys.They seem to have that GOD attitude,other then that i fully respect my co employees who happen to be pilots.So you say you have worked thru the ranks.In the last 2 years i hope, otherwise you would not have a clue what its like now. You have to face the passengers only if you want to(just close the door)i on the other hand have no choice,and a ignorant manager in your face does not make for a decent work enviroment or in time a healthy company. Just trying to give you a idea of what the other 35,000 employees have to deal with.Like i said,its not just about the money" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ikfu Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Oh no, not a new company song, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Long keel Your funny,,you get up and personal with all your customers in the span of a 6 hour flight.Get real buddy......... i fully respect my co employees who happen to be pilots. LONGTIMER V If I may.... LONG KEEL did not say he gets up close and personal with the pax on a 6 hour flight. I believe his point was that, your post above, made mention that the "pilots just don't get it". Having been one(pilot), I am sure I can say that the vast majority of pilots do understand the problems that individuals face with unhappy customers and sympathize with your problems re-managers etc., especially those who don't let the employees take the ball and run with it. I don't think either one of you intended this thread to be a urinating contest between your personal employment position and that of a pilot. If that was your intent .......then forget all I have written and go for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 To get back to the Toronto Star's article for a moment, I'm surprised to read that some of our union bigshots are whining about the $$ that we union members had to give up before Cerberus and DB would complete the transaction that saved our collective asses. Am I mistaken or are these the same people who drove Victor Li away, and wasn't the only concession that Li insisted on a concession to do with pension for those who haven't even been hired yet? I don't remember Trinity asking anyone to take a further pay cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin J Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Don't kid yourself FA@AC, the second round of concessions was in the plan from the outset. Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lavoy Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 ...and wasn't the only concession that Li insisted on a concession to do with pension for those who haven't even been hired yet?... Yes! New hires only were to go with the new pension plan, all others were to stay with the current plan. I think a lot of people were worried they'd be forced into the new pension scheme years down the road once the number of people in the new plan exceeded the number of people under the old plan. Boy, are we ever going to regret givin' Vic the boot (at least some of us are anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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