Don Hudson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Moon - thanks very much - realizing there will be strong interests in all sides of the story, I'll take a look at the Wiki work and perhaps look up Rychlak's book. The main thrust as I know you know, with perhaps a poorly chosen example out of an ignorance of the full story, was about power, money and the actions which drive people towards collaboration against the unknowing. Such occurs in every administration, secular or religious. Having witnessed here in Florence the power of religion and of government (the Medici's) alike to extract unbelievable sacrifice, spiritual and artistic expression and concentrate fabulous wealth in times of great hardship for the population, it is easy to comprehend what makes stories such as Hitler's Pope, Dan Brown's work and others, so popular. Anyway, returning to the thesis of the thread, Mitch I understand you haven't "claimed" anything and are addressing the issues raised out of an intellectual curiosity, but I thought I observed a strength of predisposition in your writing which I took to mean you believe that there was some kind of American involvement (and not just passivity in the face of certain knowledge) in the 9/11 disaster. Others here have expressed even more strongly these views. I think the question to preface any inquiry is, "why?" What is to be gained that couldn't be gained in easier ways, which have been demonstrated by many US administrations. Why risk exposure to charges of mass murder when they have successfully avoided such charges from other bodies such as the World Court?, (the reason Clinton and other presidents refused to join). The main problem is, the theory makes no sense, even if the notion of "follow the money" is invoked. We already know they followed the money - just take a look at Cheney for one blatant example. Who here thinks Cheney (among others) wasn't enriched by the invasion and subsequent "democratization" of Iraq? There was no money in rescuing people from Katrina, but there was money in rebuilding which is when FEMA showed up. There's no conspiracy there - just plain old graft, corruption and an ethical vacuum. What does make sense is reading thoroughly-researched people like Noam Chomsky and many others, who document with publicly available records, the actions and priorities of the US government. This is far, far too compliant a population these days. Mary Travers, of Peter, Paul and Mary risked jail time in the US for simply singing protest songs. Some citizens paid with their lives, (Kent State). Do we know what our government does "In our name"? The state of awareness is frighteningly low and there isn't an administration in power who isn't very satisfied with the present state of affairs. They have "won". THAT, if anything, is the conspiracy and it is happened and is happening right now, right under our noses in full view and with our full complicity. We prefer smoke and mirror/cloak and dagger stories to knowing what is really going on. It is Hollywood, not political savvy and dissidence, that has won and we risk losing our democracy because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Moon - thanks very much - realizing there will be strong interests in all sides of the story, I'll take a look at the Wiki work and perhaps look up Rychlak's book. The main thrust as I know you know, with perhaps a poorly chosen example out of an ignorance of the full story, was about power, money and the actions which drive people towards collaboration against the unknowing. Such occurs in every administration, secular or religious. Having witnessed here in Florence the power of religion and of government (the Medici's) alike to extract unbelievable sacrifice, spiritual and artistic expression and concentrate fabulous wealth in times of great hardship for the population, it is easy to comprehend what makes stories such as Hitler's Pope, Dan Brown's work and others, so popular. Anyway, returning to the thesis of the thread, Mitch I understand you haven't "claimed" anything and are addressing the issues raised out of an intellectual curiosity, but I thought I observed a strength of predisposition in your writing which I took to mean you believe that there was some kind of American involvement (and not just passivity in the face of certain knowledge) in the 9/11 disaster. Others here have expressed even more strongly these views. I think the question to preface any inquiry is, "why?" What is to be gained that couldn't be gained in easier ways, which have been demonstrated by many US administrations. Why risk exposure to charges of mass murder when they have successfully avoided such charges from other bodies such as the World Court?, (the reason Clinton and other presidents refused to join). The main problem is, the theory makes no sense, even if the notion of "follow the money" is invoked. We already know they followed the money - just take a look at Cheney for one blatant example. Who here thinks Cheney (among others) wasn't enriched by the invasion and subsequent "democratization" of Iraq? There was no money in rescuing people from Katrina, but there was money in rebuilding which is when FEMA showed up. There's no conspiracy there - just plain old graft, corruption and an ethical vacuum. What does make sense is reading thoroughly-researched people like Noam Chomsky and many others, who document with publicly available records, the actions and priorities of the US government. This is far, far too compliant a population these days. Mary Travers just passed away a few days ago. In the early and mid-60's Peter, Paul and Mary risked jail time along with many others in the US for simply singing protest songs. Some citizens who protested their government's actions even paid with their lives, (Kent State). Today, do we know what our government does "In our name"? The state of awareness is frighteningly low and there isn't an administration in power who isn't very satisfied with the present state of affairs. They have "won". THAT, if anything, is the conspiracy, not some story about 9/11, and if it turns out to be true, then the truth will join hundreds of other truths infinitly easier to prove and demonstrate. And that conspiracy is happened and is happening right now, right under our noses in full view and with our full complicity. We prefer smoke and mirror/cloak and dagger stories to knowing what is really going on. It is Hollywood and our wild imaginations, not political savvy and dissidence, that has won and we risk losing our democracy because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Don, thanks for the response. I don't feel such a predisposition, other than admitting to a complete lack of trust.... which, I guess I admit, is a predisposition of sorts... But I don't agree that the first question should be why would the government be involved. For me, the first question that comes, is why did all three of those buildings fall as they did. I find it difficult to ignore that question simply because I can't answer questions that I think might come after we know that answer. I think all of those who lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and all of us whose lives were changed for the worse that day..., all need an accurate answer as to "what exactly happened?". If it turns out that, upon duly appropriate examination of all the evidence, we get the answer that it was just the accidental result of the fires that ensued, which weakened the structures in all the right ways to have them collapse into their own footprints, then that's the answer we need. If, however, a dully appropriate examination of the evidence provides instead more questions, then we'll have to ask them. Did we avoid the question, "What is a star?" because we couldn't answer, "Why are there stars?"? Thankfully no, of course. I understand what you're saying about the more obvious, ...and it's maddening to give it much thought, because the frustration at the collective stupidity of our species can be intense... but still, I don't feel compelled by those notions to cast away any thoughts that we might not have the whole story about that day. ...even though I'd like to. I have seen good questions raised that don't appear to be answered by the official explanation. ...and the official examination, "The 911 Commission Report" is by most accounts, woefully inadequate. I must admit though, that I haven't read the whole thing myself. I've taken at face value the statements made by others who claim to have done so.... many of whom have more initials tacked on with their name than I ever could. If I'm being misled, then I won't be terribly surprised, but I'd like to know. I am, after all, just another member of that collective stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Hi Mitch - thanks for your response. There is a way, in my opinion, to leave, as you describe, that "collective voice of stupidity" and that is to stop taking the news media seriously and use it instead, along with all kinds of other sources in books, to make judgements about what government and corporations alike, are telling us, and call "bullshit" when the circumstances demand. We don't do nearly enough of that today. Re, "why did all three of those buildings fall as they did." That isn't a question for politicians, economists, social scientists or forum contributors (unless they have the right qualifications), that is a peer review question for the engineering profession. In fact I would be surprised if there weren't peer-reviewed engineering papers on this already, on why all the buildings fell. And if there aren't, then it is high time that the engineering profession heard from those who want to know, because our government sure isn't going to ask the question. Conspiracies deflect focus and permit governments to do more with less attention. Off to dinner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Off to dinner! Enjoy! It's a truly marvelous world! All the best to you and your's, Don. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 that is a peer review question for the engineering profession. In fact I would be surprised if there weren't peer-reviewed engineering papers on this already, on why all the buildings fell. I would be grateful if anyone could point me to such a thing? I've not come across one in my searches. In fact, the only "peer reviewed" paper I've come across is the one I've pointed to already, which you haven't yet read because you're busy trapsing all over Italy with nary a care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 "which you haven't yet read because you're busy trapsing all over Italy with nary a care. " And having finsihed the bottle of lemoncella, that continues...domani ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 Have any of you seen this film? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4675077383139148549# I still think the worst thing that can happen is for intelligent people to dismiss any thoughts that "the official version" of events may be untrue, without even looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Sorry Mitch. Nearly 2 1/2 hours of unsubstantiated innuendo and anti-semitism, salted with some facts just doesn't cut it for me. I think everyone readily admits we don't know all the facts. I think everyone believes the Bush Jr. dynasty smells worse and worse every day. Without having re-read my previous comments on this subject, I cannot imagine how such a massive secret could be contained by hundreds if not thousands of people. Judging by the breaks and falters in the voice of the narrator, this video did not look very professional in its construction. If you Google "AmenStop Productions", you'll find all kinds of extreme right wing stuff. Maybe that's how you found it in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 intelligent people to dismiss any thoughts that "the official version" of events may be untrue Hmmm.....9/11 was a conspiracy(or whatever it is), crop circles could be caused by aliens(or whatever it was), man-made global warming exists. What next? Nigerian investments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 If you Google "AmenStop Productions", you'll find all kinds of extreme right wing stuff. Maybe that's how you found it in the first place? No, I haven't done that yet, but I might have a look in a minute. I found it the same way I find pretty much anything else I've ever found interesting... I click on my trusty link to google video and it takes me to a page with their top viewed video's for the day... that one and it's mate were on page two yesterday, this morning it was on page one. I thought much of it was over the top, but I didn't hear any anti-semetism. I do think she raises some interesting questions. ... and I hadn't realized the total wealth of the Rothschild empire. Woxof... Hmmm.....9/11 was a conspiracy(or whatever it is), crop circles could be caused by aliens(or whatever it was), man-made global warming exists. What next? Nigerian investments? 1- the official version of the events on 911 is a conspiracy theory. Is that wrong? 2- I haven't a clue what causes crop circles. Are you saying aliens make them? 3- There are many, many people with far more formal education than I've had, who say anthropomorphic global warming is a real phenomenon. Are you saying you know more than them? I sure as hell know that I don't. 4- have you lost some money in Nigeria or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 4- have you lost some money in Nigeria or something? Isn't that where Brett works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Is that where Lagos is? Maybe woxof worked there and didn't get paid or something. This link's for you Don. : http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/182 Definitely worth a listen... I'm not so sure Chomsky wouldn't agree with the asking of many of the questions the lady asks in the previous video I linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Is that where Lagos is? Maybe woxof worked there and didn't get paid or something. Maybe my earlier remarks went way over Mitch's head....again . Woxof....slower, simpler stuff next time(and yes, Lagos is in Nigeria and used to be the capital). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Woxof....slower, simpler That may be the first time I've been able to agree with you and smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Why all the teasing, I think Mitch has raised some interesting points. Where are the answers to the very serious questions that have been raised? Why are so many fully prepared to accept a conclusion deemed ‘official’, no matter the nature of the questions that remain outstanding? Could it be, we’ve been trained to put the blinders on and follow? On another note; why would the Government of a so-called ‘free’ Country find it necessary to tuck a considerable amount of the ‘Kennedy’ evidence away from the public view until 2017? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 And of course....... "could be everything happened just as we saw it did"??? Could be all those conspiracy folks could be full of crap!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 And of course....... "could be everything happened just as we saw it did"??? Could be all those conspiracy folks could be full of crap!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Why all the teasing, I think Mitch has raised some interesting points. Where are the answers to the very serious questions that have been raised? Why are so many fully prepared to accept a conclusion deemed ‘official’, no matter the nature of the questions that remain outstanding? Could it be, we’ve been trained to put the blinders on and follow? On another note; why would the Government of a so-called ‘free’ Country find it necessary to tuck a considerable amount of the ‘Kennedy’ evidence away from the public view until 2017? Actually, if memory serves, Jackie prohibited the release of any information her estate holds in trust until 50 years after their last child (which I think is Caroline) dies. As she is still breathing, if memory serves, it will be at least 2059 before we learn more from her archive which includes the autopsy files. Notwithstanding the interview on CBC radio back in 1993 of the two surgeons who received the body and stated, live on radio, that the head shot which resulted in the back of his skull landing on the boot of the limo "was clearly an exit wound." I heard that with my own ears. It was their first interview since the assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 And of course....... "could be everything happened just as we saw it did"??? Could be all those conspiracy folks could be full of crap!!!! I think many of you have no idea how many questions without answers there are surrounding 9/11. I think if you did, you'd be every bit as curious as I am. I suspect, however, that you can't be bothered to find out what questions there are, because you automatically assume anyone who accuses the government of covering something must be a "conspiracy" theorist. Which, to me, is sad, because it means you'll never look. Which is exactly why the questions remain unanswered... too many people refuse to even look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 There will always be some unanswered questions in every major event. No matter what you answer, there is always another question that can't be answered. The conspiracy folks being full of crap sounds like the most reasonable statement yet. Reminds me of the Jonestown documentary on TV last night. The weak minded believed with all they had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 In actual fact I have done a lot of research into the subject and therefore remain convinced that the events did happen as reported. Regarding conspiracy theories in general, here is a rebuttal on the ones surrounding H1N1. Joe Schwarcz: An injection of H1N1 reason Posted: November 17, 2009, 9:00 AM by NP Editor Joe Schwarcz I think the time has come to panic. But not about catching the H1N1 “swine flu.” And not about the alleged risks of the vaccine that can protect against it. For the vast majority of people, the flu will mean no more than a week or so of misery, not different from previous versions. As far as the risk of the vaccine goes, it’s minimal. However, there is something to panic about: the stunning amount of misinformation being bandied about. I freely admit to not having expertise in this complex area, but I think I do have expertise in judging who does. And that would be the scientists at Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, the World Health Organization, Health Canada and major universities. These immunologists, virologists, toxicologists and epidemiologists spend their lives researching and evaluating vaccines. I trust their opinion, which is based on experimental evidence, over that of naturopaths, homeopaths, chiropractors and various graduates of the University of Google, for whom evidence-based medicine is a foreign concept. No rational person with a plumbing or electrical problem would seek help from a former Playboy centrefold, a comedian who specializes in facial contortions or a retired neurosurgeon. We would seek out a licensed plumber or an electrician. Yet when it comes to immunology, a field more complex than plumbing or wiring, many see no conundrum in being swayed by the rhetoric of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey or Dr. Russell Blaylock, none of whom are immunologists. Unfortunately, the lay press often presents the pro and con arguments about vaccines as if they had equal weight. They do not. The vast majority of knowledgeable scientists recognize vaccination as one of the greatest advances in the history of public health, while at the same time being fully aware that there are some risks. The point, though, is that they judge these risks to be significantly outweighed by the benefits. On the other hand, the very loud and often verbally abusive anti-vaccine minority greatly exaggerates the risks and minimizes the benefits. Unfortunately emotion often trumps science. And conspiracy theories can be seductive. One of the most convoluted tales is spun by Australian “investigative journalist” Jane Burgermeister. She contends that the H1N1 virus was genetically engineered and released by pharmaceutical companies so that they could then reap the profits from marketing vaccines. That claim almost sounds reasonable when compared with her other allegation that there is “evidence that an international corporate syndicate, which has annexed high government office inside the United States, is intent on carrying out a mass genocide using an artificial (genetic) flu pandemic virus and a forced vaccination program.” What possible reason can there be for decimating the public in this fashion? “To transfer control of the United States to the World Health Organization, the UN and affiliated security forces.” No, the H1N1 virus was not engineered by Big Pharma for financial gain. Nor is there any attempt to “cull” the population by the American government, and there is no callous disregard for public health by releasing an untested vaccine. Of course when it comes to a new vaccine, there can be no guarantee of 100% safety. But there has been adequate testing of this vaccine, which is produced the exact same way that seasonal flu vaccines have been produced for decades. Over 10 million doses of the 2009 H1N1 vaccine have already been administered with no more than the usual minor side effects. One of the noisiest anti-vaccinationists is former neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock. Some of his allegations about vaccines can be instantly shown to be wrong. For example, contrary to his charges, there never has been any squalene adjuvant in any U.S. vaccine. Adjuvants are added to increase the efficiency of the body’s reaction to the active ingredients in a vaccine, so that a smaller amount of vaccine goes a longer way. In any case, Squalene has been used in Europe and Canada for years without any problems being reported. Any time vaccination is mentioned, the issue of thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines, also rears its head. Numerous studies have investigated the allegation that mercury in vaccines is linked to developmental problems such as autism. No such connection has been found. One of the best studies was carried out by McGill researchers who surveyed almost 28,000 children born between 1987 and 1998, a period when thimerosal was widely used. There was no link with autism or any other developmental disorder. Another study at the University of California looked at 452 children aged two to five, who were either developing normally or had developmental problems such as autism spectrum disorder. There were no differences in blood mercury levels between autistic children and children with normal development. Russell Blaylock promotes vitamin D as a weapon against the flu. Vitamin D does play a role in immune function. But catching the flu is not a sign of immune deficiency. And the most recent double-blind study, carried out with 162 adults taking 2,000 IU of vitamin D3 daily during the flu season, showed no benefit in decreasing the incidence or severity of upper respiratory tract infections. Of course good nutrition is important for bolstering immune function, and taking a vitamin D supplement is a good idea for various reasons, even if it doesn’t play a critical role in protection against viral diseases. However, there is no evidentiary basis to suggest, as Blaylock does, that fish oil or antioxidants help with H1N1. The anti-vaccine crowd commonly brings up the possible link between vaccines and Guillain-Barré syndrome, a rare but potentially dangerous neurological disease. That possible connection arose in 1976 when 48 million Americans were inoculated against the swine flu and 532 developed Guillain-Barré. That means roughly 10 cases per million vaccinated. No such relationship has been found with any vaccine since that time, suggesting that there was a problem with that specific vaccine, perhaps bacterial contamination. But here is the important statistic. The flu itself can cause Guillain-Barré — somewhere between 40 and 70 cases for every million people who get come down with influenza. In other words, the risk of getting Guillain-Barré from the flu is 40 times greater than the risk of getting it from the vaccine. Life offers us no guarantees — except death. Everything comes down to a risk-benefit analysis. And I choose to carry out that analysis based on evidence-based science and expert opinion rather than on the unsubstantiated blather of conspiracy theorists. So I’ll be rolling up my sleeve for the H1N1 vaccine, as will my wife, children and grandchildren. National Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 ..... Rattler, this is not a thread about conspiracy theories. But if you're stuck in the use of that term, have you considered that the tale you say you've researched and believe, is indeed a conspiracy theory of it's own? Then let me ask: Is it only "conspiracy theories" that theorize the involvement of government that you dismiss? Are you of the opinion that the US government is beyond conspiring to mislead the public in order to achieve their goals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 ..... Rattler, this is not a thread about conspiracy theories. But if you're stuck in the use of that term, have you considered that the tale you say you've researched and believe, is indeed a conspiracy theory of it's own? Then let me ask: Is it only "conspiracy theories" that theorize the involvement of government that you dismiss? Are you of the opinion that the US government is beyond conspiring to mislead the public in order to achieve their goals? Yes, Mitch but only when it involves the deaths of thousands of their voters to achieve that end (not talking about wars of course). I don't believe that those who run the US are the "BIG EVIL" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 (not talking about wars of course) Why not? What's the difference? They lied to go after Iraq and how many Americans have died because of that? Why don't they count? Edit: I just found this answer: 4,681 from this site: http://icasualties.org/oif/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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