He can talk the talk...

[dagger]

Police in this country have been watching too many CSI shows. A problem at one station and they close everything in sight?

Traffic accidents are the same thing. It is nothing now to close a major highway or intersection for 8 or 12 hours to do án investigation'.

It's not necessarily a security issue. Once they closed the one station, they had to turn trains around which is only possible at Union Station where you have the necessary crossover line.

[Guest woxof]

If you want to show the signs from the 50's that say jew water fountain or school policies that did not allow jews, I will stand by.

How do identify a Jew?

Tell us again why it has been proven unecessary.

You can stand by now.

Here are a couple of signs from the country that somehow was able to identify and kill 6 million Jews, yet even though there is no affirmative action in said country for Jews, they do quite well nowadays as a community. There are many examples of these signs(from the '40's not the '50's)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nazi_Ant...d_Shankbone.jpg

Proving what I have said over and over....proof that affirmative action(racism) is not necessary to help a persecuted group get ahead.

STANDBY

[dagger]

You can stand by now.

Here are a couple of signs from the country that somehow was able to identify and kill 6 million Jews, yet even though there is no affirmative action in said country for Jews, they do quite well nowadays as a community. There are many of these examples(from the '40's not the '50's)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nazi_Ant...d_Shankbone.jpg

Proving what I have said over and over....proof that affirmative action(racism) is not necessary to help a persecuted group get ahead.

STANDBY

I've resisted until now, but I can't hold back.

Jews suffered from discrimination on this continent, but there were some important differences in their situation.

Jews were never singled out in the US constitution as less than human.

it was written into Article 1, Section two of the American Constitution that:

"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States . . .

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

Jews were not excluded from the military, from government, from public service. Jews fought and died in the civil war - for both sides - and fought for the US in every war since, as evidenced by the tombstones in Arlington and in US military cemeteries in Europe and the Pacific.

Despite being discriminated against in every day life, Jews were white. They were never denied the vote, they were never excluded from white schools or neighborhoods. They might have been barred from membership in certain country clubs, but they did not have to sit in the back of the bus, or live in Negro neighborhoods, or serve in Negro areas of the armed forces (see KP).

The first Jewish major leaguer - Hank Greenberg - joined the Detroit Tigers in 1933, 15 years before the first Negro - Jackie Robinson - broke the color bar.

There was never a need for Jewish Leagues the way there were for Negroes. Greenberg was MVP of the Texas League. His playing in the Deep South was not a fraction of the earth-shaking event of Robinson playing in the International League in 1947 for Montreal where he faced rampant racism even in northern cities.

In fact, Jews were expected to assimilate - and they wanted to do it as fast as possible. Negroes were blocked from assimilating. They were forced to attend negro (often inferior) schools. They were forced into menial jobs. They didn't drive trains - that was a white job. They were the fellows who made up the beds in the Pullman coach.

In a society where the barriers preventing upward mobility for Negroes were institutionalized in many states, it's hard to instill an attitude of upward mobility. Why bash your head against steel ceilings? Hence, it took forced integration, political agitation, the Voting Rights Act and decades of slow but subtle change in attitude for the conditions to become right for even a bit of upward mobility, but hardly at a pace that would assure full participation of Blacks in even two generations.

If blacks couldn't be airmen in the military, it stands to reason that fewer would take on post military careers with airlines, if airlines were even hiring them.

When ALPA was formed in 1934, it's constitution limited membership to whites only. That clause was dropped several years later, but no US airline hired a black pilot until 1965, when a Colorado court ordered CO to do so.

Hence, affirmative action. Now you don't have to like it, but don't trivialize the Black experience, because what you are engaging in is another form of racism and stereotyping.

[DEFCON]

Dagger

I don't see how woxof could be accused of "trivializing" any part of black history?

Why limit the issues of “race” geographically? By comparison to your list; the Jewish European experience of the 30's & 40's wasn’t any less horrific than endured by the blacks of mid 1800’s USA?

Although short on detail, I do recall a situation occurring during the WWII era involving a cruise liner full of Jews attempting to escape Europe and the Nazi’s. Apparently, a “race-based political decision” was made by the US government to deny landing rights to the ship?

[Guest rattler]

If we grant that the Blacks in the US were treated as being less than human (and I agree they were)until quite recently (at least in terms of history), then any overcoming should be isolated only to them or their desendants but that would not appear to be the case based on what I read in the papers (no first hand so could be very wrong) in Eastern Canada involving "blacks" not from the US of A but born in Canada, Jamacia etc.

So Trader could indeed be right in general when he stated:

Woxof's point I believe is that the Black community does not seem to foster these ideals and so stay behind. If other minorities can do it (despite racism) why can the Black community not seem to?

[Canus Chinookus]

How did the Irish ever survive? (tongue in cheek)

[Guest woxof]

Hence, affirmative action. Now you don't have to like it, but don't trivialize the Black experience, because what you are engaging in is another form of racism and stereotyping.

You know, I was wondering why it had taken so long to hear the standard accusation of being a racist for speaking the truth. Let me guess....I'm full of hatred as well. Remember this folks when you vote. A certain political spectrum will call you this for standing up for the truth and equality.

It is obvious that I am correct in that, as I originally stated, it has been proven that racist affirmative action laws are not required to get a persecuted minority ahead. But of course the supporters of such laws will probably never admit that they are wrong even in the face of the obvious.

They will continue to support a law that would, for example discriminate in the favour of a new immigrant of one race over a new immigrant of another race for a historical wrong that neither was around for or had any ancestors around for. In other words, it discriminates in favour of many never discriminated against at the expense of many who never discriminated.

To quote one of my favourite historical characters...."I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Woxof....my dream applies to children of all colour.

[Canus Chinookus]

nice post, W0X0F

[dagger]

Dagger

I don't see how woxof could be accused of "trivializing" any part of black history?

Why limit the issues of “race” geographically? By comparison to your list; the Jewish European experience of the 30's & 40's wasn’t any less horrific than endured by the blacks of mid 1800’s USA?

Although short on detail, I do recall a situation occurring during the WWII era involving a cruise liner full of Jews attempting to escape Europe and the Nazi’s. Apparently, a “race-based political decision” was made by the US government to deny landing rights to the ship?

This discussion pertains to Blacks in America and affirmative action - not to discrimination in Europe or discriminatory access to North America (the ship you are thinking of is the St. Louis). Apples and oranges. This discussion isn't about post-war treatment of Jewish refugees in Germany. Most of the Jewish population of North America had arrived in the period 1880-1924 and were experiencing their first outward move from immigrant neighborhoods by that time. Immigrants or their children had moved from the Lower East Side to the Bronx or Brooklyn by the 1930s and 1940s. The fact that Jews experienced great discrimination in Europe in the 1930s is unrelated to a discussion of the reasons for affirmative action in the USA.

[chockalicious]

You know, I was wondering why it had taken so long to hear the standard accusation of being a racist for speaking the truth. Let me guess....I'm full of hatred as well. Remember this folks when you vote. A certain political spectrum will call you this for standing up for the truth and equality.

It has taken this long because nobody throws the term around lightly. The prejudices you deny you have are what forms your opinion and inabilty to see the point in front of you.

It is obvious that I am correct in that, as I originally stated, it has been proven that racist affirmative action laws are not required to get a persecuted minority ahead. But of course the supporters of such laws will probably never admit that they are wrong even in the face of the obvious.

It is not obvious is correct because you never adressed the idiotic comment that you made, which was that affirmativoe action does not work, it worked and was needed at one time.

They will continue to support a law that would, for example discriminate in the favour of a new immigrant of one race over a new immigrant of another race for a historical wrong that neither was around for or had any ancestors around for. In other words, it discriminates in favour of many never discriminated against at the expense of many who never discriminated.

These laws were designed to right historical wrongs. What you are spewing here is garbage. These laws do not favor new immigrants, they were designed to help assimilate into society a segment of society that was traditionally discriminated against.

To quote one of my favourite historical characters...."I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

We all want that. Affirmative action was away to bring people together who would have no shot otherwise.

What I think your signature should say:

Woxof....my dream applies to children of all colour as long as nobody helps that other colour a little bit

[Guest woxof]

This discussion pertains to Blacks in America and affirmative action - not to discrimination in Europe or discriminatory access to North America (the ship you are thinking of is the St. Louis). Apples and oranges. This discussion isn't about post-war treatment of Jewish refugees in Germany. Most of the Jewish population of North America had arrived in the period 1880-1924 and were experiencing their first outward move from immigrant neighborhoods by that time. Immigrants or their children had moved from the Lower East Side to the Bronx or Brooklyn by the 1930s and 1940s. The fact that Jews experienced great discrimination in Europe in the 1930s is unrelated to a discussion of the reasons for affirmative action in the USA.

Hmmm....I was asked to prove what I said....that is that affirmative action(or whatever you want to call it is unnecessary. In other words, a group or race that has been persecuted can get ahead without racist laws in their favour...I gave an example which of course is what the Jews have done.

As we all know, their persecution over the centuries has been well documented on this thread by myself. Aside from thriving economically, they have created a country that is the powerhouse of the Middle East and very shortly after the holocaust in the face of constant attacks.

My opinion....if the Jews had been the ones to be brought over here as slaves and suffered the same experiences that Dagger posted and more....they would be thriving economically over here. Does anyone doubt that?

I have proven my point and at the same time given at least some of the major reasons for the lack of progess of others despite the best attempts to hide the truth that I shine the light upon.

[Guest woxof]

Please note everyone that on Chocklicious's last post in his last quote credited to me, he has inserted an addition into my quote that I never said. This false statement...

Changing "Woxof....my dream applies to children of all colour. " to "Woxof....my dream applies to children of all colour as long as nobody helps that other colour a little bit"

....along with the personal insults is typical of the reaction that one can expect for standing up for equality and the truth. I know it can be difficult for some to be proven wrong and they react childishly. Perhaps their emotions overcome logic and they react, but to help prevent others from being misquoted, this one is being forwarded to the administration.

p.s. The misquote by Chock was changed about an hour after my post here and this from Kip...

"C'mon Chocky.....do the right thing....you are not enhancing your position as a "worthy debater" by changing a posters text and making it look like it is, in fact, his actual text.

You may disagree with anything posted by anyone, but changing their text and making it look like it is their text by "quoting it" in your response is not on.

Man-up and git 'er done."

Woxof...No need to make false quotes to win an argument

[chockalicious]

Good point Kiparoni

I will heed your advice even though I think it is apparent that it was not the original text.

[dagger]

Hmmm....I was asked to prove what I said....that is that affirmative action(or whatever you want to call it is unnecessary. In other words, a group or race that has been persecuted can get ahead without racist laws in their favour...I gave an example which of course is what the Jews have done.

As we all know, their persecution over the centuries has been well documented on this thread by myself. Aside from thriving economically, they have created a country that is the powerhouse of the Middle East and very shortly after the holocaust in the face of constant attacks.

My opinion....if the Jews had been the ones to be brought over here as slaves and suffered the same experiences that Dagger posted and more....they would be thriving economically over here. Does anyone doubt that?

I have proven my point and at the same time given at least some of the major reasons for the lack of progess of others despite the best attempts to hide the truth that I shine the light upon.

You really want to go for the full Monty, don't you?

Jews were persecuted in Europe. They were forced into ghettos and restricted from engaging in many fields by Christian popes and kings. While in said confines, they did not prosper. You have only to look at the Jews of Russia who were forced to live in poverty in the Pale of Settlement to know that their condition was terrible. They began to do better, over time, when the ghetto walls came down, and when many emigrated to the US and were given freedom from systemic, institutionalized discrimination that Blacks didn't enjoy.

There was no equivalent in the American Jewish experience to the Jim Crow Laws. As late as 1971, the US Supreme Court was still ruling on statutes that rolled back the Jim Crow laws. This is the critical difference - Jews in the US in the 1920s and 1930s experienced some discrimination at the hands of individual employers, or social clubs, or golf courses. There was a ceiling placed on their upward mobility in certain industries, which is why they often prospered in sectors which were both growing and where they could exert some control over their own destiny. But they were not subject to pervasive, statutory discrimination by the state

As for the Jewish experience with slavery, well, the end of biblical Jewish slavery in Egypt came about because of the ultimate Affirmative Action.

[chockalicious]

C'mon Chocky.....do the right thing....you are not enhancing your position as a "mater bater" by changing a posters text and making it look like it is, in fact, his actual text.

You may disagree with anything posted by anyone, but changing their text and making it look like it is their text by "quoting it" in your response is not on.

The fact is I think you are a new level of awesome and I wish I could scuba dive the way you write.

I have heard that Chockalicious tears can cures cancer, unfortunately you never cry.

Man-up and git 'er done.

[Guest woxof]

Hey Kip...Now you have been misquoted too. Your statement which seemed to be fairly serious has been changed,made fun of and quoted to you.

"C'mon Chocky.....do the right thing....you are not enhancing your position as a "worthy debater" by changing a posters text and making it look like it is, in fact, his actual text.

You may disagree with anything posted by anyone, but changing their text and making it look like it is their text by "quoting it" in your response is not on.

Man-up and git 'er done. dry.gif"

THE POST ABOVE WAS CHANGED TO THE QUOTE BELOW

"C'mon Chocky.....do the right thing....you are not enhancing your position as a "mater bater" by changing a posters text and making it look like it is, in fact, his actual text.

You may disagree with anything posted by anyone, but changing their text and making it look like it is their text by "quoting it" in your response is not on.

The fact is I think you are a new level of awesome and I wish I could scuba dive the way you write.

I have heard that Chockalicious tears can cures cancer, unfortunately you never cry.

Man-up and git 'er done"

AS FOR ME, I HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD TO THE ATTEMPTS TO DOWNPLAY MY FACTS SO I WILL LET IT STAND AS IS. THAT IS, MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON SUBJECT. Except for one small statement. I don't think there were many blacks or anybody else for that matter in America during WWII that would have been interested in switching places with Jews in occupied Europe during WWII. Both groups suffered, some have thrived since.

[chockalicious]

I admire your ability to copy and paste.

[Mitch Cronin]

Woxof, please cut to the chase here. What exactly are you saying?

Nobody here is disputing the fact Jews have had some rough times... some horrendous times, in fact... But are you saying blacks haven't? Are you saying blacks aren't as good as Jews somehow?

What does the Jewish experience in history have to do with the black experience? Are you claiming "affirmative action" is the reason the US has a black president now?

What is your point? Is it only that you object to laws that favour one group over another? If so, I doubt anyone here would argue...? ..but you haven't made it very clear... in fact you're coming across as though you may resent any achievements blacks have made, and as if you feel blacks aren't as deserving as Jews for some reason? If that's not your belief, then I'd say you need to be more clear.

[Guest woxof]

What I am saying is the same thing I have been saying all through this thread. Affirmative action is unnecessary to a persecuted group ahead. What is necessary is for the persecuted group to get themselves ahead. And I gave a classic example of the most persecuted group that has gotten most ahead.

The the supporters of the racist affirmative action legislation can't admit they are wrong(or racist) so they try to make it look like I am saying something else by quotes like these....

"Are you saying blacks aren't as good as Jews somehow?"

"you're coming across as though you may resent any achievements blacks have made, and as if you feel blacks aren't as deserving as Jews for some reason?"

Of course you will not be able to find one quote from me that says or appears to say this.

Affirmative action is unnecessary and won't work. Action from the persecuted community itself will work. And no, I don't think Obama used affirmative action to become president...proof in itself that it is not necessary.

Isn't it obvious.

[Canus Chinookus]

What about the gypsies? No one ever talks about the gypsies...

[Trader]

I think you may be correct there Mitch-- we may all be arguing in circles!!!!!

I have no doubt that Aff Action had its place - in the 60's and 70's- but it has no place in our modern society in the West (not sure if that is what WOXOF initially began arguing about).

But, sorry, labeling him racist is nothing more than a poor (but unfortunately effective) method of stifling opinion and conversation.

But which is it?? Was Aff Action a way to right historical wrongs or to integrate a peoples that were forced to the margins of society? If the latter than I would take no issue (historically speaking). But righting historical wrongs for no other reason than to attempt to make up for something a past generation did is, imo, ridiculous. It is political correctness is its worst form.

But I have lost track of the argument. I'm not sure the argument is against AA in a a historical sense or in todays world. If you mean today, then I would agree- it has no place and is nothing more than a form of reverse discrimination and political correctness on a grand scale..

I think AA had great role to play in shaping modern law to weed out systemic discrimination. The downside appears to be the metamorphisis into a method for special interest groups to advance their agendas in todays world.

[Canus Chinookus]

The Kurds...

[chockalicious]

I am afraid to wade back into the thread but here I am

The original arguement was that Affirmative Action did not work. This point was challenged and devolved into something entirely different.

FWIW while we keep talking of AA only benefitting blacks in the US, it also helped other visible minorities, women, and the handicapped.

I would hope that as a society we can get past the need for it.

On a personal note at one time while still deciding on a career I was trying to get into the RCMP. There was one test score for all white males to move to the interview process and a different score for visible minorities including Aboriginals.

I truly believe in a meritocracy and that the best person should get the prize however given the historical events in Canada I do not think it was unfair that the RCMP was trying to target Aboriginals into the force.

Ultimately a little more diversity is not a bad thing and if by seeing an Aboriginal officer other native kids try to become RCMP, then to me at least, the process works and hopefully negates the need for any kind of affirmative action in the future.

It is not reverse racism, it is a way of helping out those people who otherwise may not have had the chance.

[chockalicious]

The Kurds...

are absolutely needed when making Poutine

[Guest woxof]

Above deleted post now completed.

The original arguement was that Affirmative Action did not work.

On a personal note at one time while still deciding on a career I was trying to get into the RCMP.  There was one test score for all white males to move to the interview process and a different score for visible minorities including Aboriginals.

I truly believe in a meritocracy and that the best person should get the prize however given the historical events in Canada I do not think it was unfair that the RCMP was trying to target Aboriginals into the force.

Ultimately a little more diversity is not a bad thing and if by seeing an Aboriginal officer other native kids try to become RCMP, then to me at least, the process works and hopefully negates the need for any kind of affirmative action in the future.

It is not reverse racism, it is a way of helping out those people who otherwise may not have had the chance.

Another unsurprising lie. I said it was unecessary to make racist laws and gave an example of where it wasn't used and wasn't needed.

But now we see the example of the racist policy at work in the RCMP where someone is hired based on race (it is done by gender as well), not who is the best for the job. Now if this person was the best for the job because it had been calculated that this new officer might be able to do a better job in the native community then it might be justified, but of course that would be hiring the best person for the job.

So now we have a situation where people are hired as police officers and fire fighters who could not make the grade otherwise...and that risks the lives of all of us. A hidden cost of continued racism.

Woxof....Proud to have always hired people who I thought were the best for the job(which by coincidence included both genders and more than one race).

But then again, I'm not a bigot and neither is the truth.